Plaxico how did he shoot himself ?

[Carmoney]

I'm really pretty surprised at how harshly many forum members are reacting to this story. I suspect it has much more to do with Plaxico personally than the actual crime itself. What if instead of a rich controversial sports celebrity, he was an off-duty cop from the midwest visiting NYC with his family who decided that his need for personal protection outweighed compliance with the draconian handgun possession laws in that city, and somehow wound up having a stupid AD that didn't hurt anyone but the off-duty officer himself?

I'll bet your attitudes would be completely different.

I don't think someone should receive jail time and lose a huge amount of money simply for possessing a handgun in a place where he's not supposed to, with no criminal intent whatsoever. And that's really all that happened.

(On the other hand, I am disappointed that a guy named after Mike Plaxco would have such poor gun-handling skills.)

[Miranda]

GJ

your post was the one that got me to thinking.

I figure that If I can get you to thinking as much, I may well change your mind.

with any luck maybe a few more will follow.

you wrote this:

"I dont think BE or the NRA should have ANY association with this guy!!!!!

JMHO

Jim"

My Grandfather Miranda HATED, as I can only state here, 'that low-life'

"He is a criminal who has brought only shame to my good name" was another thing he said.

When Grandfather was a little more lucid he was astonished that the US let that criminal out on a technicality.

All the evidence points to guilt. And they let him go. unbelievable.

As I have grown older I have come to this short explaination...

My grandfather Miranda denies all family relation.

I can tell you it can be hard to be associated with galloping stupidity or criminality.

By stating you care not to be associated with the clown in NY,

you have told me you care what others think of you.

I have news for you. If you own a fire arm, you are associated.

For a lot of citizens in NY would consider all the people here of this forum

the same as Plaxico. Quite willing to break NY laws.

We are not goint to break any laws and that will not stop the association.

If there is a solution, it is to get the illegal (unconstitutional) NY laws changed.

miranda

Edit to fix a typo

Edited December 7, 2008 by Miranda

[scirocco38s]

GJ

your post was the one that got me to thinking.

I figure that If I can get you to thinking as much, I may well change your mind.

with any luck maybe a few more will follow.

you wrote this:

"I dont think BE or the NRA should have ANY association with this guy!!!!!

JMHO

Jim"

My Grandfather Miranda HATED, as I can only state here, 'that low-life'

"He is a criminal who has brought only shame to my good name" was another thing he said.

When Grandfather was a little more lucid he was astonished that the US let that criminal out on a technicality.

All the evidence points to guilt. And they let him go. unbelievable.

As I have grown older I have come to this short explaination...

My grandfather Miranda denies all family relation.

I can tell you it can be hard to be associated with galloping stupidity or criminality.

By stating you care not to be associated with the clown in NY,

you have told me you care what others think of you.

I have news for you. If you own a fire arm, you are associated.

For a lot of citizens in NY would consider all the people here of this forum

the same as Plaxico. Quite willing to break NY laws.

We are not goint to break any laws and that will not stop the association.

If there is a solution, it is to get the illegal (unconstitutional) NY laws changed.

miranda

Edit to fix a typo

Miranda, you are correct that the association is there weather we want it or not. The laws of NYC which create this enviroment must also be changed or it will only get worse.(I am not holding my breath for that) What is far worse to me though is that just because it is a law there and some forum members are NY LEO they immediately take the attitude that everything he did was illegal and their stance is just a vicious as Bloombergs or the anti-gun crowd. It was the best example of the elitist attitude of that group. Thsoe are the ones that always know what is better for all of us, as we are not smart enough to figure it out for ourselves. Another reason why I dont visit NYC (the sh__hole)

GJ is correct that we should not associate with him in any way in the future. Not that it would be an option for us mere mortals.

I put him in a special category right now. He isnt a thug as I dont follow pro ball anymore, So I wont include him with the Micheal Vick type even though he may be. I stand by the only law he broke was one of poor judgement.

[Neomet]

No idea why I felt like doing this question/self-answer thing but I did so.....

Is the law in NY crushingly stupid? Absolutely. I am never a fan of mandatory sentences for a number of reasons and this is one of them. 3 1/2 years is completely out of line for what he did.

Is Plaxico a pompous ass who deserve this? Actually, this is a trick question. The answer is that it doesn't matter. If this is a discussion about following the law in NY it shouldn't matter one iota if we insert a thug, a pop star, or Sister Theresa as the one in possession of the firearm. The statute is the statute is the statute. We can use different scenarios to argue if a law should be passed or changed but I don't think that is what we are doing here. I think most or all of us agree the law as written is horrible. Picking our violator of the law at this point is a way to elicit an emotional response on if it is okay to violate the law. (Yes, I am guilty of doing this.) To me who the person is only matter when it comes time to sentencing which is why I am so opposed to mandatory sentences.

Is choosing to illegally carry a firearm an act of civil disobedience? JMHO, but no. This is not what Thoreau meant. Civil disobedience as I believe it is meant to be used would be if everyone in NY who felt the law was unjust holstered (or waistbanded) up, walked down to their local club and declared as they walked in that they were packing. I don't consider the fact that I exceed the posted speed limit where I think it is ridiculously low while I hope that I don't get caught as civil disobedience. I am simply breaking the law and I know it.

Is the only legitimate and legal way to get to the point where individuals can legally carry in NY or to remove mandatory sentences to get the law changed? Yes.

Do I have the right to ignore the law because I think it is unfair, unconstitutional, against public will, or shouldn't apply to me? No, because for me to be able to do that then everyone should be able to do that for every law, and that my friends is anarchy.

[Miranda]

so how can I get a bad law changed?

get a lot of people to agree with me.

we then get new laws made or repealed.

life is good.

The other way is to get a judge to decide the law is wrong(unconstitutional.)

9 judges all agreeing is even better.

and once again, life is good.

given that the laws in NY are on the books

and I believe the folks in NY think those laws are U.S. law,

I think chances of anyone leading a charge to get the NY rules makers to change

the firearms laws are not ... likely.

At this point we have only one viable option to change a whole group

of laws that are clearly unconstitutional.

Help fight against the those bad laws in open courts.

The NRA has not done this in the past because they do not

want to be associated with... what was that phrase?... that low-life.

In this case with plaxico, unlike miranda, at least there is some reason to think

plaxico is redeemable, not a COMPLETE criminal.

Tell me, at what point should this law be fought?

miranda

[Neomet]

I would love to see it fought now. I agree with you that the law probably can not be legislated out, that it must be accomplished through the courts. The problem is I am not ready to bet 3 1/2 years of living without Ms. Neomet to be the guy to test the statute even if someone is going to fund my defense. Plaxico is definitely not the guy you want either. There is too much crap around who he is, not the least being that he actually had a ND while carrying in a place where even in states that allow CC you are generally not permitted to bring a gun into, to make him your test case. You want either a retired LEO, a victim of a prior violent crime, or a soccer mom as your defendant.

[Miranda]

mmmmmm

Hi neomet

ok we are in accord. any one of those three would be ideal.

I can't help but think all three of those ideal candidates

are smart enough to avoid the situation.

I am not at all of the opinion we need to step in now.

I think he has enough money to get a strong lawyer

and If he claims he has a civil liberty that NY is infringing

then we should back his case.

It wouldn't hurt for the NRA to send his lawyer

a note outlining the possible defense.

miranda

[Flexmoney]

We have already (recently) seen a case where an off-duty LEO carried into a bar and then got into a gun fight.

I'll have to dig up some supporting facts, but..off the top of my head:

- The cop and his buddies were from California Seattle, WA.

- They were bikers and went to the big bike rally in Sturgis, South Dakota.

- They were not on any duty of any sort. (they were there to do the same as everyone else)

- Disagreement in a bar. Bar fight. A guy gets shot.

- Local laws said no guns.

- Off duty cop is charged.

I found a copy of the back story, as told by John Farnam: http://www.defense-training.com/quips/09Sept08.html

[JKSNIPER]

We always tell new cops that its is the "B" words that will get you jammed up on this job.

"Bullets, Booze, Broads, etc.....and when you MIX 2 or more of them you can almost bet your life its a bad situation."

Going out drinking with the boys?

Leave the weapon home in the safe.

Although a shooting in a bar may not end your freedom it may end your career as an LEO.

First thing they do is a blood alcohol on you to make sure you were/were not drinking.

If it is found an LEO was under the influence when shots were fired it will not bode well for him in his department.

I hope he will be ok but thats the reality of this job.

JK

[jhgtyre]

We always tell new cops that its is the "B" words that will get you jammed up on this job.

"Bullets, Booze, Broads, etc.....and when you MIX 2 or more of them you can almost bet your life its a bad situation."

Going out drinking with the boys?

Leave the weapon home in the safe.

Although a shooting in a bar may not end your freedom it may end your career as an LEO.

First thing they do is a blood alcohol on you to make sure you were/were not drinking.

If it is found an LEO was under the influence when shots were fired it will not bode well for him in his department.

I hope he will be ok but thats the reality of this job.

JK

Hmmm.... So the rules are different than they are for the football player?

-ld

[tightloop]

Personally?

I hope the laws get changed.

Professionally?

I hope they make an example out of this guy.

He discharged a firearm in a crowded place and fortunately only injured himself but he committed a series of crimes.

Even if you take away the posession crime you still have reckless endangerment, conspiracy, tampering with evidence etc....

If you buy a firearm you take on a certain amount of responsibility with it.

One is responsible/safe handling of the firearm.

He had the weapon tucked into his waistband...no holster.....I don't think anyone here would classify that carry method as being anywhere near safe.

I don't know the weapons type (conflicting local reports) but if it had a safety it was either disabled or not being used...either way thats negligent.

The guy at minimum made a totally knucklehead move and when it hurt him he compounded it by attempting to cover it up.

Not saying he should be hung up in the town square but he should be hit with more than a fine.

JK

exactly....how does anyone even begin to think this a 2nd Amendment case...this guy is a poster child for repugnant behavior, law breaking, and utter stupidity...how about anyone else...and why are you trying to force the issue with self defense, he is of legal age, and should know that you are lots safer if you stay out of dangerous places and situations...if people are at home between 12 and 5AM chances are you won't have any problems...but if you are running the clubs, drinking, and acting the fool, chances are trouble will find you. It found Plaxico...he needs to learn the lessons that come attached with that trouble...this has nothing to do with anyones constitutional rights...and utliizing common sense should come before learning the constitutional amendments....

[Flexmoney]

We always tell new cops that its is the "B" words that will get you jammed up on this job.

"Bullets, Booze, Broads, etc.....and when you MIX 2 or more of them you can almost bet your life its a bad situation."

Going out drinking with the boys?

Leave the weapon home in the safe.

That advice is fine and dandy...up until the moment you actually need to defend yourself from grave danger. And that seems to be just the case with the LEO from Seattle and his story.

Although a shooting in a bar may not end your freedom it may end your career as an LEO.

Do you realize that you are elevating rules and regulations (jail and career)...above life and limb?

I hope he will be ok but thats the reality of this job.

You gave a "no sympathy" for the professional athlete, but you hope the LEO will be OK?

[JKSNIPER]

Flex and all,

The reality of being an LEO is that you are held to a higher standard of behavior than the general public by both the public themselves as well as your agency/employer.

You are expected to exercise good and sound judgement at all times.

But.....Don't compare apples and oranges.

Going out drinking with the boys and then having a deadly force situation erupt is one thing.

It is usually out of the control of the LEO when the DPF thing happens.

(Possibly poor judgement on the LEOs part for carrying IF he would be drinking also.

He will probably be hammered by his agency for it even if he escapes criminally.

Possible poor judgement does not warrant comparison to an illegal act.)

Carrying an illegal firearm and accidentally shooting it into your thigh and then enlisting others to help cover up the crime is different set of circumstances.....and no I do not have sympathy for this guy and it has NOTHING to do with his line of work.

He broke the law by carrying an illegal handgun.

(And it was not WHERE (in a club) he was carrying it or the fact that he was carrying it that made it illegal. He did not have a permit to posess a handgun ANYWHERE in NYS. He was guilty of the illegal part as soon as he crossed the state line with the handgun in his posession....... add to that the having the A.D./N.D., conspiracy etc.....)

DId you actually READ the entire "article" that you gave as an example?

I followed the link and it is a word of mouth account that may or may not be accurate ( a fact that the writer says himself in that he "heard" the things he references in the article.)

If you did read the article then read the portion where the writer "John" gives his advice.

Good advice to follow IMHO.

Here it is:

My advice:

(1) Don't go to bars, particularly raucous ones that don't serve food, and most particularly when patrons are displaying "colors!" When in otherwise-respectable restaurants that serve liquor, don't sit at the bar.

(2) Stay out of the 'bad-part-of-town." Stay out of the entire town during events like Bike-Week! There is little to be gained from attending inherently seedy, frowzy, dangerous events and gatherings. Unless you really fit in with that crowd, it's a pretty stupid place to go!

(3) When carrying, you can't drink, not anywhere, not any amount, not even " a little!" An otherwise clear case of self-defense will rapidly dissolve into a muddled can of worms when it is subsequently revealed that you had been drinking prior to the incident. When you've been drinking, don't expect " understanding" from any jury!

(4) When traveling out of town, be always polite and congenial, but maintain a low profile and keep to yourself. Don't engage in animated conversations with people you don't know. Even an offhand and harmless remark about something as unimportant as a sports team can precipitate violent reactions on the part of otherwise "normal" people!

(5) Don't stay out late! Eat dinner early and get to bed early. Most violent events take place at night. Few happen during daylight hours.

(6) Dress so as to be "invisible." Avoid bright colors, stark contrasts, glittering jewelry, expensive watches, and particularly logo-patches and T-shirts with a "message." Dress conservatively. Be grey!

(7) Assure that your gun(s) stay discretely concealed. Don't talk about guns, yours or anyone else's.

(8) Stay alert! When you see "trouble-in-the-making," get up and leave without delay, no matter where you are, whom you're with, and even when it seems you're the only one who noticed. Get out of there before it gets any worse!

(9) When people you don't know approach and attempt to engage you in a conversation, politely dismiss them! When communicating with restaurant hostesses and servers, one to three-syllable commands and responses are all that are usually necessary. All others should hear something like, "I'm sorry sir. I can't help you," or words to that effect.

/John

These LEOs apparently (if the info is correct) went to a "notorious" biker bar during the Sturgis Bike Week.

A bar frequented by members of various biker groups wearing "colors".

These are what we in law enforcement call CLUES.

Notorious biker bar frequented by guys wearing colors......hmmmm....might want to stay out of such a place?

Might want to go hang out somewhere else?

Could maybe see a possibility of trouble developing in such a place?

IMHO based soley on the "article" quoted here I don't see where they (LEOS) broke the law based on HR218 however they possibly displayed poor judgement in their selection of drinking establishments.

However probably most of the establishments in Sturgis could be described as being frequented by bikers during bike week so perhaps that was an example of "yellow journalism".

Advice I give new cops is if you are going out with the boys to live it up then leave the firearm/I.D. home.

Otherwise volunteer to be the designated driver.

Trying to exercise good sound judgement with a firearm when you've had a few too many is a BIG mistake.

Most times in a bar conflict situation you can see it developing ahead of time .

See the problem developing and either call 911 and be a good witness or walk away from trouble before you do something you WILL regret.

I am NOT elevating rules and regs over life and limb...the REALITY is that THE JOB does just that.

If you think there might be trouble at a certain drinking establishment and you might need your weapon?

THEN DON'T GO THERE.

Go drink in the local "cop" bar or stay the fudge home.

One part of exercising good judgement is avoiding the conflict before it happens.

While they may be guilty of poor judgement the LEO example you give here does not warrant comparison to the incident the thread started discussing.

JK

Edited December 8, 2008 by JKSNIPER

[Miranda]

Ah. To see the world using through rose tinted glasses.

You may borrow mine, but not for long.

I believe tightloop asked "....how does anyone even begin to think this a 2nd Amendment case..."

I kinda wondered how to explain ....

and then .... and then... well, tightloop, my friend, I got the explaination handed to me.

pay attention to this line by JKSNIPER;

"He broke the law by carrying an illegal handgun."

I am not sure what made the handgun illegal.

In his next lines he explains exactly what made that poor hangun an outlaw.

"He did not have a permit to posess a handgun ANYWHERE in NYS.

He was guilty of the illegal part as soon as he crossed the state line with the handgun in his posession"

Allow me to walk out on a hypothetical limb.

When plaxico stopped at NY State Customs

I am sure he would have been given a

" permit to posess a handgun ANYWHERE in NYS."

I can't speak for any one here and I won't.

I see that NY does not issue permits to residents. (let alone tourists on visas.)

so I see the civil liberty declared by the 2nd amendment as being infringed.

Effectively, ordinary citizens are not allowed to bear arms in NYS.

miranda

[MichiganShootist]

Three words for the Plaxico event.

Self cleaning oven.

This dude has ben in nearly continous trouble with the law since high school.

[JKSNIPER]

Ah. To see the world using through rose tinted glasses.

You may borrow mine, but not for long.

I believe tightloop asked "....how does anyone even begin to think this a 2nd Amendment case..."

I kinda wondered how to explain ....

and then .... and then... well, tightloop, my friend, I got the explaination handed to me.

pay attention to this line by JKSNIPER;

"He broke the law by carrying an illegal handgun."

I am not sure what made the handgun illegal.

In his next lines he explains exactly what made that poor hangun an outlaw.

"He did not have a permit to posess a handgun ANYWHERE in NYS.

He was guilty of the illegal part as soon as he crossed the state line with the handgun in his posession"

Allow me to walk out on a hypothetical limb.

When plaxico stopped at NY State Customs

I am sure he would have been given a

" permit to posess a handgun ANYWHERE in NYS."

I can't speak for any one here and I won't.

I see that NY does not issue permits to residents. (let alone tourists on visas.)

so I see the civil liberty declared by the 2nd amendment as being infringed.

Effectively, ordinary citizens are not allowed to bear arms in NYS.

miranda

Miranda.....Nice.

In NYS You can get a pistol permit through your local LE office.

You have to submit to a background check and have references and have (of course) never been convicted of a felony, not the subject of a domestic violence order of protection, not a drug user etc.....

Our county DOES issue permits to residents.

If you're coming in for a competition I am not fully familiar with the laws pertaining to having a pistol in NYS just for the competition.

I would call ahead and find out if I were in that situation.

JK

[Miranda]

ok Jksniper,

let us split a hair.

You used the word "etc..." when describing what is required to be allowed to have a permit.

You did not say something like; the state of NY will assume you have firearm,

unless we find cause to restrict your right.

These are among the reasons you will have your civil libery restricted:

"... etc..."

The fact that one must act to _get_ a civil liberty described in the bill of rights

is exactly why I believe the laws needs to be addressed.

NY is not the only state with unconstitutional laws on this matter.

I live in Maryland.

miranda

[rvb]

JK,

I think everyone gets that the law was broken....

but the point everyone is trying to make is that the law is illegal.

Kinda like if a tree falls in the forest and no one is around to hear it, did a tree fall at all?

Well... if an illegal law was broken was a law broken at all? That's what the appellate courts and scotus are for. That's the whole point of the system.

Sure it's "nice" to have an alter boy sue to get rights restored as in Heller, but it's not required or even the point of the system. Sometime criminal defendants change the system... for the better. Even if they are just loser criminals who had no idea that's what was happening and they were just looking out for "#1".

-rvb

edit to add:

of course there are still the issues of discharging a firearms, possibly falsifying police report, etc etc. I'm just talking about the "illegal handgun" part.

Edited December 8, 2008 by rvb

[chp5]

Three words for the Plaxico event.

Self cleaning oven.

This dude has ben in nearly continous trouble with the law since high school.

Well put - this is the same with OJ.

That being said, I don't agree that the potential punishment fits the crime. The law is repugnant - I really don't care about Plaxico but I do feel for him at some level because the punishment doesn't fit the act.

Has anyone here been arrested before? I have. Nothing that hurt my future as a gun owner or an attorney (thank the good Lord). If you've never been arrested - thank your lucky stars because I can almost guarantee that all of us have done stupid things for which we COULD have been arrested. I'm careful about casting stones . . .

Edited December 8, 2008 by chp5

[JKSNIPER]

Miranda and all,

There are procedures to follow to own a firearm in NYS and probably most everywhere.

I used the word "ETC" to stand for that there are more qualifying things but I am not 100% familiar with them all since I do not work in the pistol lic secton of my department.

However...There is no ABSOLUTE right to own firearms.

If you commit a felony your right to own firearms is gone.

Also I'm pretty sure none of us would want the mental patients out there to own one either.

My wife works in a hospital and as part of her job has to speak with the mental patients.

Recently one had a book of things to do and one was to get a gun and kill the people in King Kullen (Local supermarket here) because "they are the red meat eaters."

O-K.

Cross her off the USPSA Christmas list.

(lol)

I am a BIG 2nd amend supporter (life member of NRA since 23) but even I cringe when I hear guys rant about things like having assumptions that everyone should have a firearm unless the state or other agency can show cause as to why they should not have one.

Sorry but just like people who should have to get a license to breed there are those out there that should NEVER own a firearm because they don't have more than 5 brain cells and 3 of them are busy with life support.

I think although the system takes a little too long to work that it works ok here.

And even with a 6 month time to get a permit for a handgun we STILL have those that slip by and we wind up revoking their license somewhere down the road.

I would like to see ordinary citizens granted the right to carry for self defense here which is RARELY granted here unless the person can show good cause as to why they need to carry a firearm (Jewelery store owner,etc) A law I very much disagree with. I feel a citizen that has the approval to posess a firearm should have the right to carry it and not just to and from the range.

I would like to see the law changed but the way to change it is NOT to go out and purposely violate it.

Unless (as someone here suggested before) you have the time and money to do so and are prepard to face the consequences.

Be aware if the outcome is not what you had planned it may be the LAST firearm you ever own because the posession of an illegal handgun is a felony crime here in NY.

Your OPINION as to whhat the law SHOULD be or not be is just that .

YOUR OPINION.

Not the actual law.

So if you violate the current law you will probably suffer immediate consequences because it IS the law.

Good luck getting to the SCOTUS.

They may decide to hear your case...then again they may not.

This after several years of appeals,motions, stays, and you possibly in jail for much of it.

Good luck with that.

I sincerely wish you luck in changing the law however I do not wish to lose my job and spend years in jail to make a point that the law is unfair.

And I think we have drifted this thread away from the original intent/question enough. If guys want to continue this discussion of NYS law with me then please PM me or e-mail me.

JK

[Jake Di Vita]

I don't think you have any idea of the magnitude of the slippery slope you are on JK...

[Miranda]

hi JKsniper,

I you had not said my name I think I'd have decided you were not talking about my post at all.

please don't feel insulted.

I can tell from your post that my meaning in my last post was not understood by you.

It happens and I can and probably will attempt to say the same things again,

just not in this post.

good communication is a two way responsibility and I will try to be more clear.

right now I can see that you are acting beset and upset.

That is not my intent. and I think I understand your points.

As a way to buffer and moderate any potential hurt feelings

lets move this discussion to Maryland.

Marylands rules on carrying a firearm are very similar to NYS.

In terms of a permit I was reffering to the kind of permit that means on has

permission to carry a firearm around in public.

Maryland has such a permit and there is a slight chance the ole plaxico might have been

permitted to carry the handgun.

Maryland allows the ordinary citizen to keep hand guns at their home.

and I would call that system.... genuinely begrudged.

but it is not a permit system.

A while back Flex asked if this might be a good test case for getting NY (and Maryland and other states) law overturned.

That is why we are discussing it.

in your post you said a lot of things

about why one should not deliberately violate any firearm laws.

I agree. Completely. Such civil disobedience has a lot of potential harm in it.

I have not read a single post that said otherwise.

right now, we have a case where someone.... broke a law.

in fact we agree the law was broken.

The criminal has a possible defense. and it will free him(and us.)

The law that is being used to prosecute me is not a legal law.

this thread is talking about that law.

We are not talking about the criminal anymore.

the law is on trial.

miranda

[jhgtyre]

Miranda and all,

There are procedures to follow to own a firearm in NYS and probably most everywhere.

I used the word "ETC" to stand for that there are more qualifying things but I am not 100% familiar with them all since I do not work in the pistol lic secton of my department.

However...There is no ABSOLUTE right to own firearms.

If you commit a felony your right to own firearms is gone.

Also I'm pretty sure none of us would want the mental patients out there to own one either.

My wife works in a hospital and as part of her job has to speak with the mental patients.

Recently one had a book of things to do and one was to get a gun and kill the people in King Kullen (Local supermarket here) because "they are the red meat eaters."

O-K.

Cross her off the USPSA Christmas list.

(lol)

I am a BIG 2nd amend supporter (life member of NRA since 23) but even I cringe when I hear guys rant about things like having assumptions that everyone should have a firearm unless the state or other agency can show cause as to why they should not have one.

Sorry but just like people who should have to get a license to breed there are those out there that should NEVER own a firearm because they don't have more than 5 brain cells and 3 of them are busy with life support.

I think although the system takes a little too long to work that it works ok here.

And even with a 6 month time to get a permit for a handgun we STILL have those that slip by and we wind up revoking their license somewhere down the road.

I would like to see ordinary citizens granted the right to carry for self defense here which is RARELY granted here unless the person can show good cause as to why they need to carry a firearm (Jewelery store owner,etc) A law I very much disagree with. I feel a citizen that has the approval to posess a firearm should have the right to carry it and not just to and from the range.

I would like to see the law changed but the way to change it is NOT to go out and purposely violate it.

Unless (as someone here suggested before) you have the time and money to do so and are prepard to face the consequences.

Be aware if the outcome is not what you had planned it may be the LAST firearm you ever own because the posession of an illegal handgun is a felony crime here in NY.

Your OPINION as to whhat the law SHOULD be or not be is just that .

YOUR OPINION.

Not the actual law.

So if you violate the current law you will probably suffer immediate consequences because it IS the law.

Good luck getting to the SCOTUS.

They may decide to hear your case...then again they may not.

This after several years of appeals,motions, stays, and you possibly in jail for much of it.

Good luck with that.

I sincerely wish you luck in changing the law however I do not wish to lose my job and spend years in jail to make a point that the law is unfair.

And I think we have drifted this thread away from the original intent/question enough. If guys want to continue this discussion of NYS law with me then please PM me or e-mail me.

JK

I am just replying so that the full text of what you wrote cannot be edited away.

-ld

[scirocco38s]

I don't think you have any idea of the magnitude of the slippery slope you are on JK...

Very good observation Jake..

[North]

There are procedures to follow to own a firearm in NYS and probably most everywhere...

...However...There is no ABSOLUTE right to own firearms...

The second amendment "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

It would seem to me that due process is required to restrict any the Rights outlined in the Bill of Rights. Here in New Mexico the only "procedure" is that you have a NM ID and the funds to pay for the firearm. And of course to fill out forms and pass the NICS check. Other than the NICS check you don't have to ask anyone’s permission and I have not been held up for more than a few minutes.