Fail to Fire during stage

[Boats]

Had two FTF's last night during the IDPA match. With my 1911's any FTF has always been some sort of feeding problem and have a stardard drill for clearing. This time with a M&P 9 was perplexed Click no bang racked the slide short clicked again and no bang again. I waisted time in getting it back up and running. Problem was ammo related Dud load.

However for the future this is what I think I ought to do with FTF or Jam. My idea is do the same thing everytime no mater what the problem may be.

Remove the mag look at it as it comes out, confirm cartridges are in the mag propery then stow it. Pull the slide back and look into the chamber, Confirm empty. Put a fresh mag in rack the slide and go back to shooting.

Any advice or suggestions appreceated. Once I figure out the best way to go will drill it dry fire.

Boats

Edited November 20, 2008 by Boats

[Ron Ankeny]

Why not stick with tap/rack/bang? As far as two duds in one event, I would be looking into the gun and ammo pretty hard. The goal should be no failures at all.

Edited November 20, 2008 by Ron Ankeny

[Singlestack Dan]

Any advice or suggestions appreceated. Once I figure out the best way to go will drill it dry fire.

Stick with slap, rack, and pull. Do it ONCE to reduce the stoppage. Don't investigate the cause, just slap, rack, and pull. This can be done fast and will fix some common stoppages.

If this doesn't reduce the stoppage, then investigate the cause and fix it.

[StealthyBlagga]

I don't want to sound like an ass, but you should focus on fixing your equipment so it does not malfunction... this is a much better investment of time and energy than optimizing your malfunction drills IMHO. The problem described could be ammo related (dud primers, raised primers, inproperly sized rounds) or gun related (weak recoil or striker spring, dirty striker channel, chipped striker tip). Make sure you 100% inspect your ammo for high primers and run every round through an ammo gage before you consider it "match ready".

Oh, and "tap-rack-bang" FTW .

[JimmyZip]

This is a perfect example of why live fire is so important. The ammo and equipment failures should be happening on practice day and not game day. I know that dryfire is economical, but it has this one cheif drawback. It will never show you the shortcomings of your ammo and firearm.

The tap-rack-bang thing is the best thing though. If that doesn't fix it, your gonna be holding things up with your poor running gear and that is no fun at all.

[Boats]

Agree on the equipment part, I posted it under Production gun tech. After a lot of years with Govt Models know well about anything that can go wrong with 1911's and handloaded ammo. Just shot My much worked on Commander in a 10 stage match using my handoads. With pratice rounds went through 250 rounds with one fail to feed that I cleared in a few seconds.

Decied to get a plastic pistol though and pay attention to shooting not gun repairs. This M&P has about 400-500 rounds through it. The FTF was it's first hiccup and I suspect the WW Box ammo is at fault, But got some good tips from the the other post on striker fired pistols and what can go wrong. I also saved the dud rounds and will put them through a BHP to see if it will fire. The M&P might be plastic but it's still just a machine and all machines break sometime.

I am still not competly sure clearing one after problems is the same as with a single stack 1911

Boats

[Chie]

I don't want to sound like an ass, but you should focus on fixing your equipment so it does not malfunction... this is a much better investment of time and energy than optimizing your malfunction drills IMHO. The problem described could be ammo related (dud primers, raised primers, inproperly sized rounds) or gun related (weak recoil or striker spring, dirty striker channel, chipped striker tip). Make sure you 100% inspect your ammo for high primers and run every round through an ammo gage before you consider it "match ready".

Oh, and "tap-rack-bang" FTW .

I totally agree on this. And also be extra cautious when doing the "tap-rack-bang" if it's a squib load your M&P will become a paper weight on your desk.

[Jim Norman]

400-500 rounds through a gun is not even broken in. At that point all the fits are still working out the tight spots. We had one person had a custom job that while beautiful was just TOO tight. took some JB Bore paste and put on the rails. Worked it a few dozen times, wiped, lubed and viola, problem gone. Live fire is the only way you will ever discover things that are ALMOST but not quite right. The gun in this example felt good, but would 'chug' when actually shot. We first thought it was being limp wristed, but with that eliminated, we determined the problem was just a few very minor high spots.

Jim

[kimmie]

I know - no such thing as a stupid question - but..... stupid question - after shooting for over 10 years now - and I'm sure I do it but don't know what I call it since I can clear ammo malfunctions pretty quickly with my 1911 - what exactly is 'tap - rack and bang? Specifically the 'tap' part. Never heard that expression before.

Thanks

Donna

[Flexmoney]

The "tap" is smacking the base of the magazine to ensure that it is properly seated in the gun. Often, it is not...which causes malfunction on a regular basis.

You can google "tap rack bang" and get some good info (wiki). Also, there are videos on youtube.

[kimmie]

Ah ha ---- that's what I do! Now I know what to call it. Thanks!

Donna

The "tap" is smacking the base of the magazine to ensure that it is properly seated in the gun. Often, it is not...which causes malfunction on a regular basis.

You can google "tap rack bang" and get some good info (wiki). Also, there are videos on youtube.

[Duane Thomas]

Probably the most common malfunction on an auto pistol is a click! on the second round after a speedload. Almost invariably this comes from not seating the fresh magazine firmly enough. The round in the chamber fires, but the next round, being held too low for the stripper rail (the portion of the slide that actually strips the round out of the magazine on the slide's forward stroke) to pick up the cartridge, doesn't feed and the action closes on empty air. Click! The tap-rack-bang drill seats the magazine and then gets a round into the chamber. Bang! And all is right with the world.

[Joe4d]

You're combining immediate action with remedial action. Immediate action as stated many times above is tap the mag rack the slide and shoot. Army M16 drill was essentially the same "SPORTS" Slap pull observe release tap shoot.

"Remedial action is what you do when immediate action doesnt work and is more gun specific. But something along the line of drop the mag rack the slide inspect the chamber reload and shoot. An addition to tap rack bang which takes no additional time and will correct a couple more malfunctions is Tap sweep rack bang. The sweep being sweeping your hand along the top of the slide on the way to grabbing it for the rack. many times this can nock out a stovepiped faiure to eject brass.

[Boats]

Thanks for all the advice, on the mechanical part my other post in the tech section may have sorted out what was going wrong. This malfunction was clearly a primer hit by the pin that did not pop. In the match when clearing I klutzed the rack. Dud did not come out and fresh cartridge tried to push in on top of the dud which really screwed things up. My other M&P when new had a extractor problem. The ejector would throw the cartridge out when fired but racking the slide manually the extractor would not let go. That's exactly what happened to this one and the reason I said perhaps the mag ought to be dropped when clearing instead of the normal slap rack bang drill.

Anyway will get it straight, the gun is still new to me. Just getting acquainted

Boats

[MemphisMechanic]

Never stow a magazine that was responsible for a jam. Assuming, of course, you'll still have the ammo to finish the stage.

If the gun acts up, tap-rack-bang. Smack the mag, rack a fresh round into the chamber, and party on. By the time you notice it's a double-feed, you'll have FINISHED a TRB. Don't think about what to do, just do that. Every time. (And do it fast, of course).

If the slide doesn't fully run forward into battery when racked, you've got a double-feed more than likely. Get the magazine out of the gun, rack it at least twice, and load a fresh magazine into the gun.

There is one time you're allowed to dump a partial magazine to the ground in IDPA. During a malfunction. If an S.O. at an IDPA match tries to give you a procedural for discarding a magazine while clearing a malfunction, have him break out the rule book, and he'll recant his decision pretty quick. Go read it for yourself, if you're worried. I've run into two SO's who weren't aware of that litte rule, weird as it may seem.

How long a tap-rack-bang takes. Again, you're done before you could've visually diagnosed the malf.

This is also worth watching, if you're not familiar with clearing malfunctions quickly, and consistently:

Edited November 22, 2008 by MemphisMechanic

[Boats]

Memphis,

Thats good advice and what I was looking for. I did not know IDPA allowed you to drop a mag if there was a malfunction.

Thanks

Boats

[cas]

Probably the most common malfunction on an auto pistol is a click! on the second round after a speedload. Almost invariably this comes from not seating the fresh magazine firmly enough. The round in the chamber fires, but the next round, being held too low for the stripper rail (the portion of the slide that actually strips the round out of the magazine on the slide's forward stroke) to pick up the cartridge, doesn't feed and the action closes on empty air. Click! The tap-rack-bang drill seats the magazine and then gets a round into the chamber. Bang! And all is right with the world.

Unless you get a tap rack BOOOM! I had a "second round after" a mag change squib this summer. Tap-rack-BOOOM.. lots of recoil and a real big hole in the target. Now when I get a click I just stand there for what seems like a month and a half, battling in my head with what to do or not to do.