Vince Pinto Posted August 9, 2003 Share Posted August 9, 2003 Hi folks, I'm seeking information on the true financial impact on competitors if a certain type or model gun was either disallowed or approved for Production Division. For argument's sake: 1. WHAT IF the USPSA imposed a 5" barrel length? Hence, for example, a Glock 34 would no longer be "legal", so let's presume you're a USPSA competitor, and you decided to sell your G34 in order to buy a compliant Glock 17 - what would be the most likely financial impact on you? or 2. WHAT IF IPSC increased the maximum barrel length from 5" to 6"? Hence, for example, a Glock 34 would suddenly become "legal", so let's presume you're an IPSC competitor, and you decided that you just had to "trade-up" your Glock 17 for a G34 - what would be the most likely financial impact on you? And please, no emotional "I'll take my ball and go home" or "I'll just go shoot IDPA" responses, OK? I only want to determine the true financial impact on competitors. No more, no less. This thread does not deal with other topics such as "combining Division A with Division B" or changing the essential character of Production Divison. Many thanks in advance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Detlef Posted August 9, 2003 Share Posted August 9, 2003 ??? Vince, you know what guns cost, plus tuning up a Prod Div gun may be anywhere from $0 to $ 300 (say, like in my case, trigger job & sights). Dunno what you're really asking, it seems so obvious... --Detlef Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eye Cutter Posted August 9, 2003 Share Posted August 9, 2003 Vince, One of the reasons Production Division was put up was to encourage more shooters to try and participate in IPSC matches, wasn't it. For me, PD is like Stock Car Racing, where all the cars used are basically the same or equally matched and the competition is more on the driver's skill. Here in the Philippines, Prod. Div. is now the 2nd most popular division in IPSC after Standard Div. and is the fastest growing in terms of new shooters participating. This is because of the lower cost of purchasing PD approved pistols compared to getting a custom 1911 type pistol which dominate Std, Open, and Modified. Of course, there are PD approved pistols that cost about the same as custom 1911's but the lower price tag model pistols are really attractive and competitive in PD. So if you're asking in terms of financial impact for attracting more and new shooters to try out IPSC in general, keep PD as box-stock as the manufacturers produce and sell as it is now. With regards to the seasoned competitors, they would probably just trade-in/trade-up their equipment for an approved one on the list and it won't be a big deal for most. My 2 cents. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BerettaRacer Posted August 9, 2003 Share Posted August 9, 2003 I'm going to shoot a Beretta E II irrigardless of the rules or changes to them. The division will just guide what personal choices or changes can be made for fit and function. I would like to see some leeway in the rules for a few personal touches like sights, springs etc. That being said lets run through the costs. New Ber E II $750 LTT trigger job, with shipping $200 Mags (9 x $40 ea) $360 Holster, pouches & belt $200 Sights & springs $150 Misc. $250 Ammo to start, 1 case $125 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spook Posted August 9, 2003 Share Posted August 9, 2003 Vince, the true financial impact would be pretty big. If USPSA would incorporate the 5"rule all those G34's would have to be traded in for G17's (or G17 topends and some small parts) The other way around would suck also. Imagine you're shooting IPSC and have a G17 that's production legal. Incorporating the 6" rule or box rule would mean that your buddy who just starts out and buys a G34 would have a gun that you can never have. You cannot put a 3,5lbs. connector on your G17, or an extended mag catch. You'll have to buy a complete new topend plus small parts. Both ways are expensive for shooters that have their gear set up properly aready. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Pinto Posted August 9, 2003 Author Share Posted August 9, 2003 <groan> OK, let me ask the same question a different way (depending where you live, only point 1 or point 2 below will apply): 1. You're a USPSA competitor. You shoot a Glock 34. The rules change and you can no longer shoot a Glock 34 in USPSA Production Division, so you must sell your G34 and buy a Glock 17 in order to be compliant with the new rules. What did the G34 cost you? How much would you get for it now? What will a new G17 cost you? Obviously any magazines, sights or other "trick bits" you had on your G34 would be transferred to your G17 before you sold it, hence this is why I'm asking about the true financial impact (e.g. after all is said and done, it would cost me $50). OR 2. You're an IPSC competitor. You shoot a Glock 17. The rules change and you can now shoot a Glock 34 in IPSC Production Division, so you decide to sell your G17 and buy a G34 because you think competitors with a G34 have an edge. What did the G17 cost you? How much would you get for it now? What will a new G34 cost you? Obviously any magazines, sights or other "trick bits" that come with the G34 would be OK, hence this is why I'm asking about the true financial impact (e.g. after all if said and done, it would cost me $50). I don't need to know the history of Production Division, or why you think such a rule change would suck. Also your holster, mag pouches and similar items are not part of the equation (unless your holster only fits one model or the other). I need to know the actual $$$$ amount impact on you personally, not to anybody else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SiG Lady Posted August 9, 2003 Share Posted August 9, 2003 ...Then, of course, if your'e UN-able to sell off either the G-17 or the G-34 because everyone else is trying to sell his/hers, then the financial impact IN-creases in every direction........... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spook Posted August 9, 2003 Share Posted August 9, 2003 It would cost me about $350 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricW Posted August 9, 2003 Share Posted August 9, 2003 Vince, I'm guessing this discussion is really about whether or not to make the G34/G35 IPSC legal or not making it USPSA Production legal. I think there's more cost than just the simple price difference in guns. The G34/35 was specificallydesigned to meet the USPSA box requirement. If USPSA regulations suddenly voided the G34/35, not only would competitors incur the cost of switching, G34/35's would suddenly plummet in price as their true value is as a competitive pistol. I don't think that this would be the *end* of the world, but I'm guessing the value of the guns would drop by 1/2 to 1/3 pretty suddenly for the near future. If the rules need to change, consider changing them in the direction of being inclusive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JakeMartens Posted August 9, 2003 Share Posted August 9, 2003 If I walked into a gun shop to do the trade, $200-300 cash out of pocket. Sell one myself to buy the other, $150-200. I do not believe the price of the G34/35 would drop if the USPSA changed rules. The gun is still IDPA legal and very popular there in both SSP and ESP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricW Posted August 9, 2003 Share Posted August 9, 2003 I do not believe the price of the G34/35 would drop if the USPSA changed rules. The gun is still IDPA legal and very popular there in both SSP and ESP. It would here. IPSC is the only game in town for a lot of people. East of the Mississippi, it's a different story as there's a lot more IDPA venues available. Maybe local GSSF shooters would snap them up, who knows. I'm guessing that the financial impact will be right around the $300-350 mark by the time you factor in the loss on selling a gun, buying a new one, and getting new leather, if necessary. I think the PITA factor is the worse than the financial impact. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vluc Posted August 9, 2003 Share Posted August 9, 2003 As a G34 production shooter, cost to me would be a 17 upper. May either move my sights form the 34 to the 17 or buy new ones...so lets say 275 for the upper, 35 for the FO front, 65 or so for the rear sight...plus labor etc, say around $400...about the price of a new gun! I could be as competitive with a 17 as with a 34. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted August 9, 2003 Share Posted August 9, 2003 Vince, Bottom Line for me to equip a G17as my G34 is equiped now: $590.- out of pocket. And I don't even have an expensive trigger job; if I had a Novak or Yanek trigger that number would increase by about $200. New G17s sell here for around $550.- Trade in for the G34 might be $300.- Add $125 for custom Bo-mars, $50.- for trigger components, $65 for a new holster, $80 for a new tungsten guiderod, $20 in permit/NICS check fees to acquire the new gun. Yanek or Novak triggers run around $175, I believe, and shipping to and from would probably be about $80.- That $590 represents around 10,000 rounds of ammo for me or about what I spend in local USPSA match fees every year. That's a significant chunk of change. Then consider that those of us who are serious about this often have a backup gun for Area Matches and above.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted August 9, 2003 Share Posted August 9, 2003 As a G34 production shooter, cost to me would be a 17 upper. May either move my sights form the 34 to the 17 or buy new ones...so lets say 275 for the upper, 35 for the FO front, 65 or so for the rear sight...plus labor etc, say around $400...about the price of a new gun!I could be as competitive with a 17 as with a 34. Vince, Glockmeister offers complete uppers for about $400.-. Even if you boucht a barrel, a Caspian Slide and the internals, I think you'd be above $275.-. Or am I missing a cheap source for parts somewhere? If there's one, please enlighten me.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THS Posted August 10, 2003 Share Posted August 10, 2003 Vince, The cost will be MUCH more than dollars. I bought a 34 just for production, USPSA. I don't shoot IDPA, and have no desire to, so if USPSA adopts the IPSC rules to the letter, then I have effectively wasted the money for my 34. Then at the same time add in the cost of HiCap 9mm mags, another race holster and mag pouches.....What, you only want to pick and choose which IPSC rules we'll follow. No Hi Caps, no race holsters? What happened to complete mirror image. You can't have it both ways. USPSA rules are different. Our laws are different too. The Glock 34 exceeds the IPSC barrel length limit by what .02"??? (My armorers manual does not have the 34\5 guns listed.) That is less than normal production tolerances, and we are going to play this crap? Here's one back at you. I'll buy an aftermarket barrel that is 5.00 inches EXACTLY and install it into my 34 along with my 5lb connector. Is it a legal IPSC gun then? It meets all the rules TO THE LETTER except for the "list" so why not? The cost in lost credibility will be measured in hundreds of thousands of dollars too. Any decision to exclude a significant number of shooters and guns is BAD. Better would to be to modify the IPSC rule, and allow more guns. The advantages to the shooter are small in and amount to feel, a subjective thing, and about .55 inches in sight radius. Sevigny won the WS with a 17 after shooting a 34 for USPSA; and I'd guess the better shooter will still rise to the top. Adding 34's to the IPSC list does not render any 17's unfit. Making the 34 illegal for USPSA will cost too much! Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted August 10, 2003 Share Posted August 10, 2003 Tom, the G-34/5 barrel length is 5.35 ---- making it about 1/3 of an inch too long. I don't think the 5" barrel installation will fire more than one round.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted August 10, 2003 Share Posted August 10, 2003 For what it's worth: I get the sense from Vince's questions that he's looking for information. I suspect he's trying to understand WHY many USPSA members feel so strongly about not changing our rules to align the production division's rules with IPSC's. I don't think he's got an agenda at the moment other than truly understanding the financial ramifications of alignment ---- whether IPSC adopts USPSA rules, USPSA adopts IPSC Rules, whether both sets of rules change to allow for a common set of guidelines, or whether everything stays the way it is now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew_Mink Posted August 10, 2003 Share Posted August 10, 2003 I would be super-pissed. I got into this sport cheap, why force me to spend more money? Sounds like the rules should have been right to begin with. I know you didn't want to hear stuff like that in this post, but trust me, you would hear plenty after you guys make that change. Not to mention the fallout factor. Cost to me would be a new G22, KKM barrel, Vanek trigger, Heinie rear sight, Dawson front, or about $900, not figuring in selling my old G35. I would be super-pissed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Pinto Posted August 10, 2003 Author Share Posted August 10, 2003 Nik, You are undoubtedly the sharpest tack in the pack - kudos! To all other respondents, many thanks for the $$$ feedback - it's been very useful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shooter Grrl Posted August 10, 2003 Share Posted August 10, 2003 Unca Vinny, Don't let the Buzzards clip your wings As a smart shooter, with a tad too much discretionary income, I happen to have both - a G34 and G22, so do what you need to to get those d*mned rulebooks in line. Wouldn't cost me a thing ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricW Posted August 10, 2003 Share Posted August 10, 2003 Whoa Folks!! Vince isn't proposing to screw over ANYBODY. All he's doing is fact finding. He didn't ask if you'd be mad. He asked what the cost of switching or feeling like you needed to upgrade would be. Let's keep it civil and fact-based. Uncle Vinny is trying to help, not hurt. Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Pinto Posted August 10, 2003 Author Share Posted August 10, 2003 Shooter Grrl & EricW, Thanks guys - I'm delighted you understand. As I've explained in various threads in the BE Forums (and as confirmed by USPSA President Mike Voigt in the USPSA Member's Guestbook), both IPSC and the USPSA agreed, in a spirit of mutual goodwill, that we'll do our very best to further reduce (and hopefully eliminate) all differences which exist between the two rulebooks but, at least for now, our efforts have focused on the "body" of the rulebook (i.e. excluding the divisions). Remember that any differences which exist were largely "inherited" by both the current IPSC and USPSA administrations, so there are no axes to grind, but we recognise that these historical differences can present quite a challenge in some instances. The bottom line though is that it's relatively easy to resolve differences in the "body" of the rulebook. For argument's sake, if IPSC said "Blah, blah, blah, 3 metres" and the USPSA said ""Blah, blah, blah 2 metres" on a particular rule, and if there's no compelling reason for either distance to prevail then, dammit, we'll toss a coin or something. However in respect of more important issues, such as a "Bang" on "GC, HD, H", we resolved this by finding a mutually acceptable compromise (e.g. IF clear, etc.). Having said all that, neither administration wants to screw competitors by making equipment obsolete. Of course occasionally, in our own right, such a situation might occur, but we didn't want to do it just for the sake of aligning the Divisions, and this why Divisions were excluded from the recently concluded rules work. Does this mean we'll (individually or collectively) never touch the Divisions? No. Why? Because the political environment in which we enjoy our sport is constantly changing, and such changes may force us to take another look at things, for better or for worse, on a Regional or an International basis. For example, if the 1994 AWB sunsets, then +10 round magazines cease to be a problem in the USA. Does this mean the USPSA must abandon Limited 10? Of course not, but this is an example of how the political environment would at least justify a review of the status quo. On the other hand, if IPSC discovers that multiple Regions suddenly face new 10 round limits, then that would force IPSC to at least conduct a review of the status quo. And, apart from external forces, there may well be internal forces (such as the lack of support for a particular division or the realisation that we're failing to adequately accommodate certain type of equipment or the realisation that a division is not working as originally intended), to at least justify a review of the status quo. Anyway, thanks for reading. I gotta go sit down now, because my soap box is about to crumble Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vluc Posted August 10, 2003 Share Posted August 10, 2003 Well in the spirit of that, how about bravo=4 for minor?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shred Posted August 10, 2003 Share Posted August 10, 2003 To answer the $ question in the form of the Mastercard ad: Trade stock G34 for stock G17: $150 Trade tuned G34 for tuned G17: $350 Piss off a shooter forever: Priceless. Personally, I'd rather longslides not be legit USPSA Production guns, but I know many people that actually shoot Production that would be rather irritated. Maybe if you give 'em five years before the rule takes effect or something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twix Posted August 11, 2003 Share Posted August 11, 2003 VP, I bought a G35 because it is OK for USPSA L, L10, and P. I spent the money to trick it out. I bought a second G35. I have a wife and two kids I am trying to bring into the sport. I am not a rich guy nor do I play one on TV. I looked around recently with the idea of converting a 35 to a 34, a top end switch was $360 retail for a stock Glock unit. I was thinking about switching to 9mm to save money on reloaded ammo. Hint, hint...(the $ is important for the average Joe Lunchbox, especially if you want to bring the family). Tom Bergman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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