Multigun Nationals Feedback Thread

[ap3]

Relig, your statement doesn't wash at all, because they seem to be able to do it every year for the PISTOL Nationals, with a lot more stages and it has moved around a bunch!

The Pistol Nationals is put on by experienced crews and on a lot occasions the clubs that put it on have put it on before.

Take a look at the MG Nationals:

2008 LA

2007 Tulsa, OK

2006 Albany, OR

2005 Las Vegas, NV

2004 Reno, NV

I have never understood why the MG nationals has to be moved every single year. We have our President Mike V. write scathing articles about outlaw matches and then the MG Nationals has problems. I believe Religious Shooter has a good point that the MG Natioanls needs to be in one place for 2 to 3 year cycles. If the USPSA office is not going to provide some leadeship, then no more articles condeming matches that sell out.

I believe the biggest problem we are having year after year with the MG nationals comes back to one thing, leadership. I am not going to give up on the MG nationals, but honestly how many more years does everyone have to complain before our President and paid staff do something about the issue.

Love,

Albert

[Jack T]

Some stages pre-loaded only after all competitors were back...and one pre-loaded tubes and chamber

This was somewhat dependent on how many RO's were at a stage. If there was an RO dedicated to watch a table of loaded guns, they would load more than just the on-deck shooter. I do not remember EVER loading a chamber until the RO said "Make ready" at the line.

We had one stage that had us load the chamber on the pre-loading table. We did as they asked, but we were surprised by it.

Major/minor really just needs to be eliminated for a match such as this.

This match had dedicated rifle targets and pistol targets. So splitting them while scoring is not a big deal. The stats folks had to deal with it back end. Does EZWS do it automatically?

Lee

EZWS does not handle major/minor with multigun. I talked to the stats girl about it because I was confused when looking at the scores. She said the whole match had to be scored as major, then they have to enter additional penalty points for anything that has a minor hit. A BIG pain in the rear for her. Kudos to her because she did the best she could with what she had to work with, but it was certainly not easy to do (thus the delays in posting the final scores).

Yeah, that was Stage 3, where we also loaded the shotgun hot on the table. That hit me as pretty strange, especially with all the new gun handleing rules and other BS that was in play. I actually had an RO who would not allow me to transfer my flagged long guns from my cart to the gun rack because he did not want me handling the guns behind his back. (He was standing at the pre-load table, Stage 6) My temper almost got the best of me on that one, the guy actually raised his voice like I was about to comit an un-safe act.

Didn't I just read somewhere that an individual was stating how great the Comstock Scoring System worked for Multigun and couldn't understand why we use alternate scoring systems for 3-Gun Competition that actually work more efficiently at both scoring the targets and processing the final scores.

[Fullauto_Shooter]

Just checked the USPSA Nationals page and still can't find the final results. Are they posted somewhere else?

This one aspect of "lack of USPSA HQs support" is aggrevating. The shooters paid a hefty entry fee to shoot this National Championship Match; I think the timely posting of final results is part of the service we PAID for (hell, they should have been posted last night). If small, local clubs here in TX can post same-day match results, there is no reason why the full-time, paid staff of our National HQs can't do the same for our National Championship Match. There appears to be NO accountability for these failings.

[kellyn]

Kelly - Taran has a Limited and of course Tactical at Nationals.

Rich

You are correct. Taran won in Limited in 2003 and Tactical in 2004 - 2006. Thanks for the correction.

USPSA should be careful about complaining about "outlaw" 3 gun which is probably the most actively thriving practical shooting sport. In the "marketplace" of matches, many if not most other major 3 gun matches are either nearly full, full or bursting past capacity, certainly not so with the Multigun Nationals.

[DA45acp]

Michael Voigt did not stay for the awards, but that is not his job.

I thought that WAS his job as president of USPSA. He had other commitments (maybe like the rest of us who needed to be on the road at that time) but at the Handgun Nats I have attended he made it a point to be there.

My first Multigun Nationals and I was disappointed. Did not have the air of importance that the Handgun Nationals at Tulsa had. Some of the ROs seemed nervous around long guns. Kind of like we couldn't be trusted handling them. I have a pistol and loaded magazines on my hip but "PLEASE STAY 3 FEET BACK FROM THE LOADING TABLE".

I don't know, just me maybe.

[ken hebert]

Sounds like USPSA might want to trash their multi-gun rules and go with outlaw type. Seems to be waaay more popular.

Now, that being said, I vote for next years multigun nats to be at Double Tap, those guys set up a helluva match. Can you say "high round count"!!

[Wakal]

This was an entertaining match, for a state-level Cowboy-action competition

The stages were short, laid out neatly so Limited shooters didn't have to reload except for (three?) of 12 stages. Too much "pick up pistol, shoot five targets, put down pistol in left-hand unfriendly box that doesn't fit Open guns, then pick up rifle and shoot ten rounds, then cram rifle in same box currently holding shotgun, although box is too narrow and not wide enough, and..."

Things I liked:

The range, as always, is easy to reach and has all the amenities needed.

The RO's were, as expected, a very nice and hardworking bunch of folks making the best of the horrible excuse for USPSA's ever-shifting 3-gun rules.

Things to fix:

As already stated, the neatly constructed and very well made "dump" and "staging" boxes were too narrow to fit two long guns (much less a shotgun with a magazine), and the pistol "boxes" were all set up for right handed shooters using short guns (slide rackers and a big stick in the wee little boxes made for an interesting balancing act, much less trying to cross over with a dominant left hand...left handed shooters, what a concept...).

Food. No hot food on Sunday. Yet...we were all there through 1400. The grill was still up from Friday and Saturday, but there was only a rack of $1 candy bars and a box marked "honor system." Fire that puppy up and grill some hot dogs!

On a related note, I know the Clark Range has paying members who bitch if they can't shoot when they want, which forces anyone holding a major match to rent the range (for a large stack of cash) for one week and one week only, with lots of rules about what sort of signs and stage markings can be put up, when things can be built, and so on. That makes building any match problematic at best, and very difficult with a just a few (7?) hardy and stalwart souls building a 12-stage little match like this. They did a great job with what they had!

The big one: For all USPSA's carping about insufficiently detailed rules inconsistently applied (speaking usually of "outlaw" 3-gun matches), this match was...interesting. Some RO's bitched about shooters using the plastic from shotgun hulls as "chamber flags" (when the RO from the previous stage MADE THEM for the squad!). Some RO's had no problem with carts that had built-in (vertical) racks, others threw a fit and demanded that all guns be kept in the ground-level midget racks on each stage, which made things amusing for tall people who tended to look down the barrels of other guns while retrieving their own). Some RO's pointed out that "make ready" was a state of being, and lasted until the shooter was ready...while others threw little hissy fits if the shooter made the second gun ready without a direct command (repeated). There were dire warnings of DQ's for those who took their long guns and put them in their carts in the parking lot, and more dire warnings for those who use gun strollers since their guns were not vertical when racked.

Judging from the cute little stages, and the horrible turnout, and the chintzy prize table, and the 0900 Sunday morning "we were just kidding about Heavy Metal," and the last-minute "oh, I have the scores but you don't get to see them until you all take 10 stages down...but leave two for Kay and Jerry..." game...I had an epiphany.

USPSA is the Outlaw Match.

If USPSA's PAID STAFFERS actually support the match, and if USPSA can figure out some rules (perhaps written by, oh, 3-gun competitors instead of merely pistol shooters), and if USPSA can finally code Ezwinscore to something approaching modern technology, and if USPSA can get a prize table, and if USPSA can ACTUALLY SELL OUT A NATIONAL CHAMPIONSHIP LEVEL MATCH (yes, that amazes me)...then maybe USPSA can join the mainstream of 3-Gun shooting.

Right now, USPSA is sitting on the sidelines with no clue how to get in on the big game. USPSA...via la outlaw!

Alex

L2484

[cpty1]

It is unfortunate, but the fat lady has sang.

[Caspian_45]

Ya'll got 30 rd open guns, 20 +rd ltd guns, up to 100 rd rifles and you think you should have to reload.......

Take your old single stack gun next year.........if you got one that is........

If you're going dump your gun do it with care...........if not it might get broke.

Tear down..........hmmm tables, chairs, tents, ranges CLEANED up of trash. I do it every year at every Nationals I attend. Manditory I think would be wrong.......but they asked if you would help.

If you shoot a match to get a prize.......you're in it for the wrong reasons.

Trophy's... yes....ALL divisons and classes too. Remember to anounce ALL the winners.

I wasn't there, but I know several that were doing setup. They are top notch setup guys. This wasn't there first match.

MV is the Nationals Match Director............he appoints someone to make the match happen. This way he can have time to practice, teach classes, and shoot matches all year long without the bother of makin' the match happen. This is the one we.......er some voted in as prez.

Let the BOD know who you think the Nationals match director should be. And maybe multigun just ain't where USPSA needs to spend their time.

Real sorry ya'll were disappointed with the match.

[Wakal]

An addendum to my prize table comments...if you are going to have a prize table, have one. If you are going to throw out a pack of shoc-buffs and 50 rounds of reloads, then don't bother and run it as a (less expensive!) trophy only match

I've given up on reloads for rifles, since even Limited and "Tactical" get to have Betas and such. However, 3-gun is three-gun...lets have some 15-30 round shotgun stages to go with the 15-30 round pistol and rifle stages (well, at other matches than this one ).

To sum up:

Ditching Heavy Metal on the morning of the last day, halfway through the last stage...that was horrible.

Not even calling out any of the "protected categories" during the awards...that was annoying.

Announcing that the results were hostage to the competitors tearing down the match...that was beyond belief. The sad part, most of us would have helped if asked (instead of being held hostage).

Alex

Edited October 7, 2008 by Wakal

[outerlimits]

and still, no results on the web site. sad...there is alot wrong in USPSA on this one.

[lmccrock]

Ya'll got 30 rd open guns, 20 +rd ltd guns, up to 100 rd rifles and you think you should have to reload.......

My "Limited" gun is a Para P14-45 with a couple of extenders so I get 16+1 on a good day. I did not have to reload the handgun. Ran it dry once, but did not reload. My rifle mags hold 30. The only reload was the standards. That is not much shooting. I think there were 4 stages with shotgun reloads.

Actually, the whole thing was worth it to see Jerry ride a bicycle across the range. Wish I had a camera handy.

Lee

[Fullauto_Shooter]

Just sent an e-mail to the USPSA HQs leadership (Mike V, John A, and Dave T) inquiring about the MG results and why they're not posted yet. Anxious to see what they have to say.

If you think this lack of posted results is wrong, I'd encourage you to voice your opinion directly to the USPSA leadership. Unless they know that we're upset, things will likely never change. Hell, they probably won't change anyway, but at least we can put them on notice that this won't be forgotten come election time.

Edited October 7, 2008 by Fullauto_Shooter

[outerlimits]

Just sent an e-mail to the USPSA HQs leadership (Mike V, John A, and Dave T) inquiring about the MG results and why they're not posted yet. Anxious to see what they have to say.

did that earlier...

[mike4045]

This was my first Multigun nats. I did like parts of it. As far as the RO's, they did a great job. There are too many negatives to justify going back next year. I spent about $1,200 on the trip. I can say I went and tried it. I have talked to several people about it and all feel the same way. I would prefer they cut the entry fee and lose the prize table. I don't think I will be back next year.

I really did not the part about dropping Heavy Metal. They walked up and informed a shooter from our squad midway thru the last stage. At least of it was done at sign in he could have chosen to switch out guns. I carried a backup that was loaned to another shooter whose shotgun died on our second stage. I would not have had a problem with 2 people using it. It needed to be broke in anyway.

I am already looking into finding info the outlaw matches. They seem to be the one's to shoot.

Mike

[chendersby]

Just sent an e-mail to the USPSA HQs leadership (Mike V, John A, and Dave T) inquiring about the MG results and why they're not posted yet. Anxious to see what they have to say.

If you think this lack of posted results is wrong, I'd encourage you to voice your opinion directly to the USPSA leadership. Unless they know that we're upset, things will likely never change. Hell, they probably won't change anyway, but at least we can put them on notice that this won't be forgotten come election time.

As a member of USPSA leadership and a shooter in this match I can assure you I know you are upset and you can be certain I will be making sure the entire rest of the leadership knows it.

Making multigun work when all you are doing is running a match in the same place every year and can change your rules to your needs, is easy compared to trying to make it work within an organization with thousands of members, clubs and a huge officiating pool. I know we can do better. Please don't write us off yet.

Dave Thomas' comment about lack of office support was about the fact we had Steel Challenge, the pistol nationals and multigun all in a short period of time. The lack of support is not because they don't want to support multigun, it was there was not enough time to physically do everything that needed doing and the multigun being the last event of the series suffered the worst. The comment was not about uspsa's commitment to multigun.

[LChico]

Just sent an e-mail to the USPSA HQs leadership (Mike V, John A, and Dave T) inquiring about the MG results and why they're not posted yet. Anxious to see what they have to say.

If you think this lack of posted results is wrong, I'd encourage you to voice your opinion directly to the USPSA leadership. Unless they know that we're upset, things will likely never change. Hell, they probably won't change anyway, but at least we can put them on notice that this won't be forgotten come election time.

As a member of USPSA leadership and a shooter in this match I can assure you I know you are upset and you can be certain I will be making sure the entire rest of the leadership knows it.

Making multigun work when all you are doing is running a match in the same place every year and can change your rules to your needs, is easy compared to trying to make it work within an organization with thousands of members, clubs and a huge officiating pool. I know we can do better. Please don't write us off yet.

Dave Thomas' comment about lack of office support was about the fact we had Steel Challenge, the pistol nationals and multigun all in a short period of time. The lack of support is not because they don't want to support multigun, it was there was not enough time to physically do everything that needed doing and the multigun being the last event of the series suffered the worst. The comment was not about uspsa's commitment to multigun.

I'll try to say this again. The USPSA office & leadership do not have access to the match file with results unless someone uploads it. They cannot post results they do not have. EZWinScore generates the text file in about a minute or two. If the match leadership had results at the range Sunday, they were able to create the file at that time.

From the USPSA website about uploading results:

Request that the USPSA Webmaster create a match results area for your match. Please submit this request at least one week (preferably two) in advance of your match.

Use EZWinScore to prepare match results. Use the "Calculate Results" menu under the "Match" heading. Select scoring type "By Divsion". Select the menu option "Web File." This will generate a file named "webfile.txt".

Visit the results area for your match on the USPSA web site. This may be found by selecting "Major match results & Information", followed by you match name.

If a results area as been set up, you will see a Match Director's link at the bottom of the results page for the match. Select that link and follow instructions. You will be able to upload match results directly from your browser in one step.

The main difficulty I have encountered is that few ranges have Internet access & posting results usually has to wait until I get back to the hotel, or to a business that offers Internet access.

Posting interim and final results is usually the responsibility of the match director or chief statistician. Contacting Michael Voigt, Dave Thomas, or John Amidon will certainly let them know you are upset, and may add 3 people to the group inquiring about results, but your best bet may be to contact the match director.

Linda Chico (L-2035)

Columbia SC

Edited October 7, 2008 by LChico

[Jack T]

Just sent an e-mail to the USPSA HQs leadership (Mike V, John A, and Dave T) inquiring about the MG results and why they're not posted yet. Anxious to see what they have to say.

If you think this lack of posted results is wrong, I'd encourage you to voice your opinion directly to the USPSA leadership. Unless they know that we're upset, things will likely never change. Hell, they probably won't change anyway, but at least we can put them on notice that this won't be forgotten come election time.

As a member of USPSA leadership and a shooter in this match I can assure you I know you are upset and you can be certain I will be making sure the entire rest of the leadership knows it.

Making multigun work when all you are doing is running a match in the same place every year and can change your rules to your needs, is easy compared to trying to make it work within an organization with thousands of members, clubs and a huge officiating pool. I know we can do better. Please don't write us off yet.

Dave Thomas' comment about lack of office support was about the fact we had Steel Challenge, the pistol nationals and multigun all in a short period of time. The lack of support is not because they don't want to support multigun, it was there was not enough time to physically do everything that needed doing and the multigun being the last event of the series suffered the worst. The comment was not about uspsa's commitment to multigun.

Chris,

This has been going on for years. It is horrible management and a pure lack of professionalism. It is not difficult to schedule events, avoid conflicts and determine what personnel and assets are required to make it happen. Apparently the leadership and perhaps some of the staff are not capable of performing their job to standard and need to be replaced. It's pretty damn plain to me they can not do the job. It is not that hard to do. We all know the scoring system does not work, quit putting bandaids on it and start over. The rules are horrible. Seems like lawyers have been brought in to make it more complex, rather than simplify and streamline them. I know this match started quite a few thousand dollars in the hole and there are other problems that we, as members are not aware of, but USPSA owes it to the membership to put on the best event possible. I said this in the post prior to the match ever starting. It was apparent at that time this match was going to be no better than a section/state match with limited assets. We all knew the limitations put on the Shootout Range and yet the match was still held there. Holding the match in the same place every year is great for continueity, but believing the fact that it can not be moved every year and still be a great match is not true. We have great ranges and personnel that could have filled this match to capacity on the East Coast. Only problem, there are a few top level shooters and the Prez don't like ranges where their long range rifle abilities/strengths are limited, so our venues do not meet his (MV) approval. Very few people have access to ranges where we have the ability to practice long range shooting (Past 100/200 yards), so it is not a factor for the other 98% of the shooters. Quit catering to that small select group of shooters and be concerned with the general membership. We could do it at Frank's Range (Frostproof), Titusville, Jacksonville, and many other facilities on the East Coast are capable of hosting a National Level Event, but there again for political reasons and such, it has not happened. I am a firm believer we should have both an East Coast Regional and a West Coast Regional Multigun Championship. We need to make the travel to the match more convenient/cost effective for the shooters and forget about trying keep it centralized. Travel is much more difficult for Multigun Shooters than Pistol only (Air Travel) shooters.

USPSA has destroyed the Multigun Nationals by their own ineptness and by a select few people satisfying their personal interests with total disregard for the memberhip.

Regards,

Jack T.

Edited October 7, 2008 by Jack T

[ap3]

Just sent an e-mail to the USPSA HQs leadership (Mike V, John A, and Dave T) inquiring about the MG results and why they're not posted yet. Anxious to see what they have to say.

did that earlier...

Sent my email, and I would suggest that if everyone sent an email that is reading these post then perhaps we could get some real leadership for the multi-gun nationals.

[dean]

First off I want to thank the RO's for a great JOB and feel bad they were NOT able to shoot the match..

As one of three vendors at the match, and sponsor, I can say I will never again Sponsor a USPSA multigun event...

I will support the Multigun matches that fill up in minutes, have waiting lists, and ARE FUN TO SHOOT because those matches are for the shooter...

DOCTERUSA

[Jack T]

Scores are up!!

[Fullauto_Shooter]

Match Results are now posted on the USPSA webpage. I got a response from Dave Thomas last night shortly after I sent my e-mail inquiry. He told me that he didn't realize the scores hadn't been posted yet and that he'd inquire first thing this morning - well, looks like he made it happen. Thanks Dave.

Chris,

Thanks for the response; enjoyed talking with you and Ralph at Registration, IHOP, etc. I personally haven't written off the Nationals - yet. It should be THE Premier Multi-Gun Event in the Nation, but for whatever reason it isn't (and hasn't been). The historical shortcomings of the match are evidenced in the fact that it was only half full and drew even fewer shooter than last years match in Tulsa - it seems to be a match in decline. The definition of insanity is to continue to do the same thing and expect a different result. When will the USPSA leadership try something new with Multi-Gun? The so-called "outlaw matches" always seem to fill immediately and are immensely popular - what are they doing that USPSA isn't? Something needs to change.

Dean,

First - thanks for your sponsorship of this match - please know that we appreciate it. I can understand why you wouldn't be interested in continuing your sponsorship in the future - the match bulletin makes no mention of your contributions and, if I recall correctly, there was NO thanks given to you or any of the sponsors during the awards portion of the match. I noted this lack of acknowledgment and kept wondering when the MDs would get around to thanking you guys, but it never happened.

Doug

Edited October 7, 2008 by Fullauto_Shooter

[davidwiz]

Third issue - Scheduling. There's no good reason there weren't a couple free entry certifcates on the prize table for NEXT years MG Nationals. It should already be locked in for dates and venue (along with ALL the Pistol Nationals). We working folks (at least 80% of the USPSA membership) need to be able to make plans, schedule vacations, etc - the farther out the better. It shouldn't be that hard for USPSA to figure out when and where a National Championship match will take place one year out.

I'll second that. My gf has to put in for vacation a year prior. I'm lucky in that I work for myself, but a lot of people don't, and have to give some sort of advance notice to their employer about vacation.

[Ara]

With all due respect to everyone at USPSA, I will go ahead and say it. I see two problems:

1. We are over administrating every nationals with too many RO's, which adds costs. ie., 3 RO's per stage. Do the math. This is an area that is costing money (taking money away from the match that could be used elsewhere). Not to say we don't need RO's, just saying we need to explore alternatives to 3 per stage.

2. Is it possible that we are spreading ourselves too thin? ie., adding more food on our plate via Steel Challenge.

[outerlimits]

in order to spread resources so uspsa can actually handle a quality 3 gun match, i'm afraid they will need to re-examine a single pistol nationals once again-"run what ya' brung".