strengths and weaknesses

[bigbrowndog]

There is an interesting thread in one of the other topic fields, that made me think................

The other day we shot RM3G, and they had some stages that used choice targets, and also targets that could be shot from various positions/distances.

My question is how many of you actually look at a stage and decide how you want to shoot it based on your abilityor equipments, strengths or weaknesses.

i have had to look at stages differently this year because I'm shooting HM throughout the year, and have in the past shot Tac iron, which allows me more ammo in my rifle and pistol. So i find myself having to be more conservative in my approach to shooting these two guns on a stage. and also trying to figure out which gun I wanted to use based on my strengths, like on stage 7, i think?? where you could engage plates with SG or pistol, or stage 5 where you could use pistol or rifle on some "close" paper. in both cases I chose to use the pistol simply because it is easier to reload the ammo back into the gun and recoil recovery is quicker.

but I also tend to choose to make a harder shot first, and then proceed to easier targets because for me it is easier to speed up than it is to slow down. However others do not like to shoot that way, ......................or they don't think about things like that when deciding how to shoot a stage.

so basically my question is, do you generally want to see how someone else shoots a stage so you can get an idea, do you want to come up with your own idea, do you care who you watch shoot the stage (lesser ability, greater ability, or comparable ability) and do you take into consideration your equipment when deciding how to shoot a stage.

BTW, one of the best gamesman (stagewise) in multigun is none other than Mr. Hill, IMHO.

Edited September 27, 2008 by bigbrowndog

[Merlin Orr]

I know for myself I alway end up better when I use a conservative approach. Things like reloading 2 extra for the shotgun while between targets, only trying for one target while the activator moves or falls and slowing or stopping for any shot beyond a few yards always gets me through the stage with a better overall placement.....

[M ammo]

You have hit on the big. Dilemma of this sport.

Determining your strengths and weaknesses. And having to execute your solution.

The timer and your actual hits on target are what truth is.

I believe it is this truth that keeps many (gun owners) out of this sport. They just will not face the ego busting reality. That they are not as good as they think they are.

Those of us that keep with this sport, have to keep assessing ourselves, and our equipment so that when we look at a stage, we can assess what we need to do.

And what we can do.

You talk about do you want to see someone else shoot the stage first,, that is nice if the squadding allows it. It is good if there is more than one way to shoot the stage.

And to see different people see how they are going about solving the problem.

I know what I can do, (I do need to push myself I need to work on speed lately I’m stuck)

I shoot with Full auto shooter from time to time, he is very speedy, he shoots stages different than I do. He also takes more risk than I do,, and gets out to the ragged edge. (Something I need to work on)

I do come up with my own solution to shoot a stage, but if I see someone that shoots what looks like a better way to shoot the stage, and I think I can pull it off. I’ll give it a try.

M ammo

[bigbrowndog]

Well what I'm most curious about is, what do you use to determine "your" way of shooting a stage. watching someone else shoot a stage and figuring that you can do it that way as well is not exactly taking into consideration the things that "they" used to determine their way of shooting it.

As I said before, I will generally shoot a harder target first, but if you watched me shoot a stage and didn'ty ask why I shot it that way you wouldn't know why I chose to do it that way. and you would simply be copying me, not really working your strengths or weaknesses.

This is what I see the vast majority of shooters do....................COPY what they see!!!!! No matter who it was that they watched shoot a stage, If it looks like a good way people will copy, without regard for "THEIR" strengths or weaknesses. I watched pretty much an entire squad shoot a stage at RM3G, and they all shot it pretty much the same, one shooter had a reshoot and was due to shoot it with our squad. We all chose to shoot the stage differently than the previous squad, some of us differently from each other, the reshoot person watched our first couple of shooters and chose to shoot his reshoot more similar to them, again copying what he saw, with no apparent regard to his strengths and weaknesses or those of his equipment, or for that matter who it was they were watching, and what was their skill level.

It is this behavior that I think causes more problems for new shooters, or even to a greater extent, up and coming shooters, the ability to know ones limitations and use them to your advantage.

[mwx40x40]

I found my self pondering these things when I decided to shoot a whole season of USPSA in Revolver Division. Sometimes taking shots I never would have considered in L10 or Ltd, just to maximize ammo and minimze reloads.

[Modoc]

I haven't been playing much yet, just some pistol matches, but I am finding myself watching how a couple of our shooters run the course and then working my reloads in (they're Open/Limited to my SS ).

Still learning the rules of the game and sinking deeper into the quagmire of FUN!

[HSMITH]

I just had this conversation with a friend, people will all too often try to do the same thing they saw another/more skilled shooter do and it KILLS their stage.

I will often run a same/similar plan to others of similar ability, as long as it makes sense for me. I have absolutely no qualms about doing something totally different if I think it is going to be better. I shoot the plan that makes sense to me knowing my strengths and weaknesses. In a club match I will almost always shoot the way I am weakest just for the learning experience as club matches are the ONLY practice I get, in a bigger match I will pull back a bit and shoot what I know/think I can pull off.

Then you have tendencies, I tend to shoot right to left if it isn't absolutely the wrong way to do it. I tend to shoot on the move a lot and prefer running to very tight or long shots if I can make it pay. Tendencies can have a big influence on the way we plan stages.

I definitely watch what others of similar or higher ability are doing, but it doesn't set my plan. I will watch friends of lower ability but I just spectate in that case, and gauge it by what they are capable of doing. Their runs have no influence at all on me. Others of lesser ability I really don't watch at all.

[kurtm]

I just copy what Trapr does KurtM

[bigbrowndog]

I knew you were always full of crap, kurt, but now the rest of the members do as well.

It is funny though how when you know other shooters of similar skill you gravitate to each other when making a plan. Its not so much the big overall plan but the little things that you may not have noticed or considered.

My LR rifle shooting sux as far as I'm concerned,............... I tend to forget little things that I shouldn't, and then remember them right after the IYAF command. for this reason I try to listen to what good rifle shooters think about a stage and watch what they do in the stage. when shooting iron sights there are a lot of things to consider during a match/stage, light at the shooting position, your position, target visibilty, light at the target, these are the things that vacate the premises when the buzzer goes off, for me!!!!

so if you haven't figured it out yet,..............the only reason I hang out with Kurt Miller, is because he is a very good rifle shooter and I need to pick his brain.

Trapr

Edited September 28, 2008 by bigbrowndog

[Benelli Chick]

Trapr,

We were just talking about this today. I really like stages that allow for alternate plans. My weakness is shooting fast, I'm working on it, but... I can reload my shotgun pretty well (Thanks to KM's method!) and I can move between positions pretty quickly, though I am slowing down. Old Age Sucks!!!!!

I will run up and shoot from a still position if I can. I am improving at shooting on the move, but I do that mostly at local matches which is where I practice, too.

JJ and I try really hard (especially at Johnson 3-Gun and local matches) to give you choices so you can shoot it best for you. We've got this one stage we've used twice at local because the first time, lots of shooters said "I should have shot that another way." Even I shot it stupid for me the first time. I cut off 20 seconds at the second match.

We try to get away from those stages where everyone shoots it the same way, because that's really the only way to shoot it. Now doing choice of guns is really tricky because of kinds of targets and distances. Sometimes, you just have to say, don't shoot that with your rifle!!!!! But, that's probably off topic! Really cool stages will have lots of different ways to shoot them. Some people will pick the wrong way for them, but then you learn something!!

Anyway, I used to always go first, especially in pistol matches where there wasn't much choice. Now, I like to wait a little while because people see things I don't see, and sometimes, they will work for me. As a stage designer, sometimes you can't see your targets for your design. I will always remember a stage at Rocky Mountain with a briefcase chained to one arm. Almost every shooter shot it strong handed with the briefcase in their weak hand. The stage designer came up to shoot it half way through the match and he had it in his head to shoot it two handed with the briefcase tight to his wrist. He shot the briefcase!!! He knew how he planned to shoot it. Sometimes, watching others gives you good ideas. Sometimes, watching others makes me change a plan at the last minute, and I should have stuck to my original one because I know my limits. Sometimes, I let others talk me into trying things that are just silly for me. Movers are a great case in point. Fast shooters, and confident ones, shoot these three static targets, then shoot that one and that one and the swinger will be right there. Every time I see a mover, my brain runs out of my ears and I can't hit the still ones, 'cause I'm worried about the moving one I'm going to shoot later. I shoot activator, mover, activator, mover. None of this gangin up stuff!

JJ says to say he got his love of choice from Wakal's stages at Texas!!!

If you like choicey stages, be sure to sign up for Johnson 3-Gun!!! Announcement coming soon! Sorry, couldn't help myself!

[kellyn]

I just copy what Trapr does KurtM

Damn, I just copy copy Kurt! Which means I am just copying Trapr!

This is an excellent question though. You have to shoot to your strengths but you can't ignore weakness. Just some random thoughts:

Unlike Trapr, I tend to like to start with easy targets and work my ways towards hard ones, especially with a pistol.

I don't care how good you are or how good you think you are, you can learn from D or C class shooters. I can think of a couple of times that I changed the way I shot a stage at a major match after a newer shooter viewed it differently.

Always listen to other people's ideas. But that does not mean that you have to follow them.

READ the stage description.

Don't be afraid to do things your own way. The only stage I won at RM3G (stage 7), I shot differently from everybody else. Most every time I decide to shoot a stage differently to play to my strengths, it pays off.

Kurt and I shoot shotguns in the opposite direction. I like right to left, he likes left to right. This can change how you shoot a stage.

Be BOLD but don't attempt something that you've never successfully done before in practice or in another match. If you can't do it in practice, you aren't suddenly going to be able to do it in a match.

Carefully watch the good shooters and remember their tricks. TODAY, I pulled something off on a stage that I witnessed TGO do at least 6 or 7 years ago. If I had not seen him perform that trick (engage a target one handed while going for the mag with your support hand to have a superfast reload to the next target) I never would have thought of it myself. That saved me a standing reload today.

And I agree, Mr. Hill is a FANTASTIC stage strategist.

[kurtm]

Oh sure Benny gets to be a "FANTASTIC stage strategist." I open just one door and I am a "Gamer"!

I sometimes copy Kelly in a stage, but I always use a mirror to veiw him as he shoots a different direction than I do.

[bigbrowndog]

had you been the one to come up with that "brilliant" piece of stategy, you could be in the same class as Benny. no you had to take someone else's plan and then take credit for it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

trapr

[Smoky Bear]

had you been the one to come up with that "brilliant" piece of stategy, you could be in the same class as Benny. no you had to take someone else's plan and then take credit for it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

trapr

He is just mad that you did not go before him, so he could open the door and then punch out the "windows".

[buzzworm]

Well, I don't know if it was my post to JJ about the choice targets, but I definately think about my weak/strong points when I look at a stage. I used to shoot revlover, so I had so split every array by six, manage my reloads, and which targets could be engaged at which position with the greatest likyhood of good hits/speed. I guess it just carries over.

I shoot HMO, and reloading a SG sux, so IF I can ditch it and go to a HG that can be loaded in .5 seconds as opposed to 8 seconds works for me. No brainer. I watched several shooters stand there and reload their shotgun, while they had a HG on their belt, and targets well within reach of a HG. I didn't care for that plan.

If I have an array that I can shoot right to left, that's the way I shoot it, just works better for me. I have had folks say, "if you're right handed, you need to go left to right, as that is the natural way the gun recoils" Well, I feel like I'm fighting it when I go left to right. I do practice left to right in local matches, but only for the times I don't have a choice.

I also decide which gun I can keep shooting the longest, but also get the hits fastest with. At RM3G, on 5, I took the HG/rifle choice targets with my rifle. I had already popped in a fresh mag after the two sets of steel, and the small rifle papers, and the choice targets were easily done with the rifle just before dumping it in the barrel, as oppose to the back targets being a little bit long for a HG (read slower). On 7, I dumped the SH as soon as I could, used the HG for all the steel choice targets, and the paper choice targets, except the two furthest ones. Dumped the HG in the bucket, then used the rifle for the two left (or planned to, before I forgot the one in the shadow) then still had an almost full mag for steal. I also decided on that plan based on the fact that there wasn't a lot of rifle steel there. If I had more steel to shoot, I may have used the HG for all the paper, so my rifle would have more ammo to start out with on steel.

A very wise person once told me to listen to what everyone says, take what sounds good and try it, IF you think it will help you. If it works better, great, if not, drop it and move on, but you need to decide which is helpfull, and which is not. Otherwise you can spend an awfull lot of time trying everything, and not getting better at what you already have. What works well for one person, doesn't always work well for another. I watch everyone that is in line before me shoot the stage. If I have a plan, and someone has something better, then I decide if I can alter my plan and not screw it up. I have had times when I had a plan, changed at the last minute, then blew it when the buzzer went off, because of confusion between the two plans. I try to stick with my original plan, but will alter it if I see something much better. I have seen brand new shooters look at a stage from a totally different view than veteran shooters, and walk away with a great run that all the know it alls overlooked.

As far as which target to shoot first, that changes with the stage, but usually hardest first. If there is a nice easy, wide open target that I can get first, nice and fast, get going, then pick up the harder one, fine, but if it is going to be a slow start to the stage anyway, I like to get the harder one, then relax and speed up (IF I can) for the easier ones.

So, yes, when I can, I try to shoot a stage based on strength/weakness. What works best for me. I think most folks do it, even if they have never though about it.

By the way, it was good seeing you at Raton, hope to see you at FB3G.

[Bear1142]

I breakdown a stage based on my own strengths and weaknesses.

The only time I tend to "consult" with the other shooters about a stage is when there are multiple ways of shooting a stage with no clear advantage (which incidently, is the mark of a good stage designer!)

I do notice a big tendency to bounce ideas and strategies off others, but in the end, most of the guys I shoot with will find their own path.

If I am considering a strategy that is a bit risky, I will definitely watch other shooters to evaluate whether or not the reward is worth the risk (and it must be or it's not worth the risk, right?)

Above all, I try to remember that I'm competing against the stage, not against an individual. Beat the stage, not the man.

Erik

[benny hill]

But erik, I had much rather beat you than a stage altogeth it is getting harder to do as I get older & you get better.

[kurtm]

HEY Trapr!!! I never said it was MY idea, if you will remember it was suggested by Dale the Fed! and WE all agreed, It was a quarum! I just happened to be "up first". Trip to Becker $235, beer and food $135, look on M.D.'s face ...priceless!!!

I am with Benny on this one, I ain't beating no stage, I am beating all the guys who shoot that stage! I like to look at a stage get a general idea and see what develops form there. I NEVER walk a stage a whole bunch of times, it just confuses me. I don't plan strength or weakness, I just go with what I think works for me and never give it another thought. That is why I don't "take a sight picture", and can be found joking with my amigos right up untill I hear a beep! KurtM

[Chris Conley]

Good thread Trapr! This is good stuff. Maybe if I played the game more like Kurt and a few others I'd shoot better. I get too serious about it sometimes.

Chris C.

Edited September 30, 2008 by Chris Conley

[bigbrowndog]

Kurt, you left out the 15hrs in a car with guys you can't remember why you call friends!!!!! BTW, I think that suburban can make the turn without turning......................WIDE!!!!

And you did give Jeffe the chance to be the Hero!!

I tend to dry run a stage until I get all the targets accounted for and my shooting order correct, and the rounds fired is correct with the rounds needed, then I stop. On big technical stages like the SG stage#2 at RM3G, it may take several dry runs to remember the order and get the reloads set in my mind.

If I'm not ready when my turn comes up, I am not afraid to ask for more time. this normally does not happen, although there have been a few "bug hunts" where it was close.

Trapr

[jbullgpd]

so if you haven't figured it out yet,..............the only reason I hang out with Kurt Miller, is because he is a very good rifle shooter and I need to pick his brain.

Trapr

I thought Kurt said all he could do was reload well? heheheh.... Totally agree, when I started this game I just found myself copying others which in its own right does help initially in learning how to look at stages but the best thing is to ask the other shooters why they did it that way.....That is where I learned the most. When I lived in Phoenix and shot at Rio, I would take time from a break to watch TGO walkthrough a stage and see his mind work out the kinks in a stage and then watch him shoot it. It is truely amazing at times. For 3 gun, I know I have shot some of those select a gun stages and they are a hoot. I find my irons rifle is faster than my pistol. I tend to be too conservative with my pistol and it is my downfall in 3 gun. My shotgun shooting is good when my reloads go my way and I think (key word) I'm pretty good with my rifle. I will definitely look at they way I can shoot each stage best. It is truly one of the big keys to this game. I actually learned from Eric at RM3G a few years back about shooting my shotgun right to left to use the shotgun recoil to my advantage. I had always gone left to right before hand. In the end, don't stop learning from others. Its the people that make this game fun.........