Prize Table Distribution

[badchad]

How should prizes be distributed at a shooting match?

[ajg308]

I am leaning towards random more and more. With order of finish there are so many ways to do it by division, class ect. I think random just leaves less room for people to gripe and I also like seeing some guy win a nice price that he would have never won in order of finish. We gave away some pistols last weekend and three marksman level shooters got them, the look on their faces was great.

[MI_Packer]

I think the top shooters should always be recognized or awarded. But I also think the top d-class shooter in all divisions should be as well.

A couple random prizes helps to keep and attract shooters in/to our sport.

Our club has a raffle gun at every monthly meeting, $5 gets a ticket. Our attendance is over 100 members and approaches 200 members for some meetings. I'm certain the gun raffle helps attendance.

[JKSNIPER]

I think the top shooters should always be recognized or awarded. But I also think the top d-class shooter in all divisions should be as well.

A couple random prizes helps to keep and attract shooters in/to our sport.

Our club has a raffle gun at every monthly meeting, $5 gets a ticket. Our attendance is over 100 members and approaches 200 members for some meetings. I'm certain the gun raffle helps attendance.

Agree with you 100%.

JK

[Merlin Orr]

How many times do we have to suffer through this crap?

[badchad]

How many times do we have to suffer through this crap?

With an accurate poll, perhaps never again.

[Wakal]

Straight up order of finish, with nominal (trophy type) awards for all the silly little "protected categories" and classes and NOT early trips to the prize table. Top D-, B+, or "Best Left-handed Red-headed Turnip Fancier" should not go to the table before folks who shot faster and more accurately.

Alex

[jhgtyre]

Straight up order of finish, with nominal (trophy type) awards for all the silly little "protected categories" and classes and NOT early trips to the prize table. Top D-, B+, or "Best Left-handed Red-headed Turnip Fancier" should not go to the table before folks who shot faster and more accurately.

Alex

I for one would like to see Flex change Alex's title to "Best Left-handed Red-headed Turnip Fancier"

-ld

[davecutts]

You should have to earn it. Straight up order of finish.

[Carl Provan]

This poll is difficult to get a valid result from.

First if you do order of finish to be far to all shooters, all shooter need to be present at the conclusion of the match. With the format that most Area matches are held that would put the friday shooters comming back on sunday to get there prize table item. Or you make the shooters shoot 10 to 12 stages over 3 days thus increasing there expense to shoot the match.

If you do random then the shooters that would not make it to the prize table before all of the good stuf is gone have a chance to get some of the good stuff.

Nationals should be order of finish. Area and Sectional should be random.

my .02

[Chills1994]

(ah.... jeesh... delurking/decloaking once again )

bad chad wrote:

With an accurate poll, perhaps never again.

@badchad, dude your ability to write "surveys" sucks!

Hence, I didn't vote.

You are trying to force people into two separate and equally polarizing (err.. emotional??) camps.

And like I said in the other thread, surveying people on the BE forums is gonna give you skewed results. I don't know... let me make a comparison... let's say I went on a Mac forum and asked them their opinions about PC's... okay, that might be a bit of an extreme.

The only way you're gonna get more legitimate survey results is if you sent out a paper and pencil survey to every USPSA member, all 20,000 or so of 'em.

How many of them know about the Brian Enos forum, I have no idea ???

How many of them are actually interested enough in 3 gun to even bother filling out the survey and mailing it back??

And then USPSA, AFAIK, only represents some small-ish fraction of the big prize tabled 3 gun matches that are out there??

I would have added a few more options like:

3. As long as however it is done is spelled out and adhered to on the match entry form, I'm cool with that. If they change horses midstream at the match, that pi$$es me off.

4. I don't care about the prizes, I'm there to shoot and have fun.

(or my suggestion)

5. At least 1st place in each division gets a gun, everything else is done by random drawing

6. Matches should do away with prize tables

Funny, how in the other thread, I have NOT, at least not yet, been bashed about the head and shoulders for bringing that four letter word, IDPA, into the discussion.

Funny again, how nobody took the bait and tried to run with it.

In less than a week, about 300 IDPA'ers will be flocking to Allentown, PA for Nat's. All "prizes" are at random. The Top Dawgs at most walk away with bragging rights and maybe a $40 trophy/plaque. (and for some of the hired guns, I guess they get to continue shooting for whatever teams are paying their way to shoot).

I have never heard anyone pi$$ and moan about the prize distribution at a major IDPA match.

@ badchad... since you are most vocal/adamant about this issue, I'll refine my suggestion from the other thread:

Only first place in each division gets a trip to the prize table. (again, no classifications) I mean after all, 2nd place is first loser. The 2nd place, 3rd place, and 4th place guys should have shot in the rain, snow, mud, and dry fired and practiced their shotgun reloads until their fingers bled. [/sarcasm]

Then whatever is left on the prize table is drawn at random for the rest of the "losers".

That seems fair to me.... in my opinion...

And if I ever do get to be a MD for a big 3 gun match, it will be blatantly spelled out on the match entry form how prize distribution will work.

You don't like my plan for prizes, that's fine. You don't have to come shoot my match.

PS: IBTL

Edited September 24, 2008 by Chills1994

[el pres]

bad chad wrote:

Funny, how in the other thread, I have NOT, at least not yet, been bashed about the head and shoulders for bringing that four letter word, IDPA, into the discussion.

Funny again, how nobody took the bait and tried to run with it.

in my opinion...

What bait ??? I think we are all just done with this subject for another year or so !!!

[SteveZ]

I got a better idea....lets just get rid of prizes all together and go plaques/trophies only! Are we involved in this game because of the prizes we can win...or because of the challenge and experiences it offers? Think about it!

[Chills1994]

Dirty Chamber wrote:

What bait ??? ....

As far as bait goes, I was kinda hinting how this is mostly a USPSA'er forum and the impression I have gotten is that IDPA tends to get poo-poo'ed on a lot.

I think we are all just done with this subject for another year or so !!!

^^^ Amen to that, brotha... Talk about beatin' a dead horse...

Anybody want to place any bets on when the next "How should prizes be distributed?" thread will pop up again?

I say during the month of May 2009.

Hey, if it's spelled out in the "contract" (aka the match entry form), when you go to fill that out and send in your money, don't go pitching a b*tch that you didn't win a prize because you were fourth place "Best Left-handed Red-headed Turnip Fancier" .

You knew what you were getting yourself into before you plunked down the jack.

Caveat emptor!

Besides that, methinks these bigger 3 gun matches regardless of what rules or umbrella organization they are run under are all gonna continue to fill up quickly and have a waiting list with or without the prize tables.

Prizes are like the icing on the cake.

Edited September 24, 2008 by Chills1994

[VegasOPM]

I prefer the concept of giving out prizes based on performance, but IMHO that leads to sandbagging. There is something frustrating about competing head to head with an "M" level shooter that is somehow classed as a "B". I'd love to say that it is rare, but I know of several shooters in my club alone that prefer winning stuff to the adulation that higher classes bring. My favorite quote for that is "another classifier, another mike".

[Carl Provan]

I got a better idea....lets just get rid of prizes all together and go plaques/trophies only! Are we involved in this game because of the prizes we can win...or because of the challenge and experiences it offers? Think about it!

As a match organizer that is not possible because most sponsors would rather give product to the match instead of cash. The Area 5 for this year gave out approximately 7K in prizes table items. 5K was donated we purchased 2K just to try to give everybody something. We where still short. If we had the cash for all of the items given out and gave it to the match, division, class and catagory winners then only about 10% would have something to show for the match. We did a double blind drawing and about 85% of the shooters got something.

I hope shooters go to the matches for the challenge that the stages provide. Not how big the prize table is or is not.

[badchad]

This poll is difficult to get a valid result from.

First if you do order of finish to be far to all shooters, all shooter need to be present at the conclusion of the match. With the format that most Area matches are held that would put the friday shooters comming back on sunday to get there prize table item. Or you make the shooters shoot 10 to 12 stages over 3 days thus increasing there expense to shoot the match.

I think what your raising is more of an implementation consideration rather than a fundamental one of what people think should be awarded at a competition. At either an Area match or a Nationals one could either make it such that one must be present to get an award or not, and the same could be said for a random drawing or distribution based on ability. At a match rewarding performance one could either send a representative to the prize table for them, or they could number off an order of preference the items they want and when their placing comes up their favorite item (not already picked) could be mailed to them. The hassle shouldn’t be much different than mailing out random prizes, and would do a lot to prevent people winning prizes they don’t want.

@badchad, dude your ability to write "surveys" sucks!

Hence, I didn't vote.

You are trying to force people into two separate and equally polarizing (err.. emotional??) camps.

I thank you for your opinion of my survey, and yes I was forcing people into one of two camps. Either one thinks people should earn prizes based on performance or they don’t. If you can’t decide, then study the issue before voting, or if it doesn’t please you to be more in one camp than the other, then don’t vote.

And like I said in the other thread, surveying people on the BE forums is gonna give you skewed results. I don't know... let me make a comparison... let's say I went on a Mac forum and asked them their opinions about PC's... okay, that might be a bit of an extreme.

The only way you're gonna get more legitimate survey results is if you sent out a paper and pencil survey to every USPSA member, all 20,000 or so of 'em.

I feel I should inform you that samples are used frequently to determine the opinions of a larger number of people, thus saving the trouble and expense of questioning absolutely everybody, and doing so has historically been a reasonably accurate way of gauging the way people think. If you think sending individual letters out to everybody is better, go for it and let us know what you come up with.

How many of them know about the Brian Enos forum, I have no idea ???

How many of them are actually interested enough in 3 gun to even bother filling out the survey and mailing it back??

And then USPSA, AFAIK, only represents some small-ish fraction of the big prize tabled 3 gun matches that are out there??

Well I did broaden my poll to include shooting matches in general, as I really don’t think 3-gunners are that much different than pistol competitors in this regard. And this isn’t only a USPSA website, it has relatively well used forums for other shooting sports as well and I don’t seem much animosity between sports. I see a lot people participate in several disciplines.

I would have added a few more options like:

3. As long as however it is done is spelled out and adhered to on the match entry form, I'm cool with that. If they change horses midstream at the match, that pi$$es me off.

4. I don't care about the prizes, I'm there to shoot and have fun.

(or my suggestion)

5. At least 1st place in each division gets a gun, everything else is done by random drawing

6. Matches should do away with prize tables

And I wouldn’t have included those questions. I didn’t want other variables clouding the primary issue. That being, do most shooters think prizes should award performance or something else.

I have never heard anyone pi$$ and moan about the prize distribution at a major IDPA match.

I haven’t heard anyone piss and moan about the prize tables at any match, but that doesn’t mean people don’t have an opinion about the best and fairest way to distribute prizes that are there. If IDPA shooters are anything like USPSA shooters (and I bet they are) then a lot are too polite to complain about the prizes most would prefer to win things based on merit rather than luck. Nearly all of the reasons for such being the case have been argued in this thread http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=71154 and I have no wish to repeat them here. Here I’m just taking a poll.

[Flexmoney]

Straight up order of finish, with nominal (trophy type) awards for all the silly little "protected categories" and classes and NOT early trips to the prize table. Top D-, B+, or "Best Left-handed Red-headed Turnip Fancier" should not go to the table before folks who shot faster and more accurately.

Alex

I for one would like to see Flex change Alex's title to "Best Left-handed Red-headed Turnip Fancier"

-ld

He'd have to prove the "best" part.

(We don't just GIVE those titles out...you gotta earn it.)

[Flexmoney]

How many times do we have to suffer through this crap?

With an accurate poll, perhaps never again.

Rookie.

[kurtm]

Well let,s clarify one thing right now, The big prize table matches ARE NOT RUN BY USPSA! Of the shooters that activly shoot the big 3-gun matches only about 50% are USPSA members so a pencil and paper "vote" by USPSA membership would mean exactly nothing in this thread.

SteveZ, I say do away with ALL types of awards; plaques, trophies, sculptures, etc., if we are going that route. The guys winning these matches already have box after box of palques and trophies, and sure don't "need" any more. Just put the names on the results page for those who are interested to see. Winnning doesn't really mean a thing the day after the match is over, it just means that on that particulare day your gear worked better than other guys gear and you happened to shoot just a bit faster/more accurately, but the day after is, as they say, a new day and all that stuff might not happen again for a while. KurtM

[AikiDale]

How many times do we have to suffer through this crap?

It will be awhile Merlin. First we have to change the public school perception you don't have to do the work to get passed to the next grade. Then we have to wait for all the folks who were indoctrinated in that system to die out....

[TonyH]

How many times do we have to suffer through this crap?

It will be awhile Merlin. First we have to change the public school perception you don't have to do the work to get passed to the next grade. Then we have to wait for all the folks who were indoctrinated in that system to die out....

Well Said!!!

[HoMiE]

I don't care about prize tables. I'd rather pay a lower match fee and shoot more matches.

[herky]

Well said, HoMiE !!

[SteveZ]

I got a better idea....lets just get rid of prizes all together and go plaques/trophies only! Are we involved in this game because of the prizes we can win...or because of the challenge and experiences it offers? Think about it!

As a match organizer that is not possible because most sponsors would rather give product to the match instead of cash. ...

Sure you can....give it to the Staff (CRO/RO/etc). That way the sponsors products still gets distributed (perhaps to the people who most deserve it for putting in their time) and award plaques/trophies to the competitors. I've seen this done at Area matches...and no one (especially the RO's) seemed to complain.

I'm all for getting rid of prize tables entirely and dropping match fees.....I agree with KurtM too...its all about the shooting...not what you can put on your wall (or in your safe).

Edited September 24, 2008 by SteveZ