Entering fast or leaving fast.

[badchad]

For example shooting around a barricade or shooting through a port, and it’s one you need to both enter on and leave on. It seems fastest to aim and shoot the first target that comes into your field of view, but you also pick up time by being able to leave fast on the last target by shooting inside to out. It seems to me it would be a wash in a lot of situations, but listening to better shooters talk as they are doping a stage it seems they often have definite opinions about one way or the other. So how do you decide between the two?

[Matt Cheely]

First thing that comes to mind for me is that it depends on the difficulty of the target. A hard target is going to require more setup, therefore I'll start moving on the exit while I'm still shooting.

A easy target would be shot while I'm coming into the position.

Very general here, it would depend on the stage and such...

[Flexmoney]

Probably "depends". [i see Matt beat me to that. ]

If you can take a real easy target while coming in...and before you get truly "set up"...then that is like taking that one target out of the array. Taking that same target last, even if you do so while backing up...still kinda holds you in that position/array.

On the other hand, if I am not going to get a shot off until I am pretty much "set up", then I might go for the goofy shot first.

I look at a lot of these based on where my body weight will be and what direction my momentum is wanting to take me. For example, if I am having to shoot around the right side of a barricade (from the barricade box) and I really have to wrap around the barricade for a target that is tucked in there hard... that means I get almost no body weight on my left leg...and my body weight that is on my right leg is such that I'm not in a position to use that leg to drive off of with a nice power move. I can't drop-step with that right leg either...as almost all my weight is still on it. Assuming I need to leave that position and go left...that is tough...so, I'd want to take that tucked in target other than last. If I could leave there and go to the right (instead), then my momentum and body weight could just roll right on through and carry me out of the position as I shot that tucked in target.

I am always looking to have my weight "ahead" of my power...with regards to the direction that I am looking to go. (Power comes from the legs...above the knees.)

On a classifier stage, that has you shooting on both sides of a barricade, I will usually start on the strong side (my gun is already there) and draw to the inside target, and shoot the strong side from the inside to the outside. I can probably get eyes on the draw target before/during the draw. As I shoot the strong side array, my weight can start to shift a bit...making it easier to transition to the weak side (plus, I'm not wrapped around the barricade as much).

Finishing on the weak side, I will shoot outside toward inside. This allows me to finish in the most awkward position...allowing me to not have to come out of that position on the clock.

[dirty whiteboy]

Thanks, that was a good question and some very good advice.

[Holshot]

On a classifier stage, that has you shooting on both sides of a barricade, I will usually start on the strong side (my gun is already there) and draw to the inside target, and shoot the strong side from the inside to the outside. I can probably get eyes on the draw target before/during the draw. As I shoot the strong side array, my weight can start to shift a bit...making it easier to transition to the weak side (plus, I'm not wrapped around the barricade as much).

Finishing on the weak side, I will shoot outside toward inside. This allows me to finish in the most awkward position...allowing me to not have to come out of that position on the clock.

I was taught and have always done it the opposite way. To not question that and test it vs what you suggest is very uncharacteristic of me. Thanks for the slap to the forehead - I'm going to try that on the clock next training day.

Thanks again

[Flexmoney]

I was hoping we'd get some more input from folks on this...

[Flexmoney]

On a classifier stage, that has you shooting on both sides of a barricade, I will usually start on the strong side (my gun is already there) and draw to the inside target, and shoot the strong side from the inside to the outside. I can probably get eyes on the draw target before/during the draw. As I shoot the strong side array, my weight can start to shift a bit...making it easier to transition to the weak side (plus, I'm not wrapped around the barricade as much).

Finishing on the weak side, I will shoot outside toward inside. This allows me to finish in the most awkward position...allowing me to not have to come out of that position on the clock.

I was taught and have always done it the opposite way. To not question that and test it vs what you suggest is very uncharacteristic of me. Thanks for the slap to the forehead - I'm going to try that on the clock next training day.

Thanks again

Heck yeah, try it and see if it works for you or not. And, figure out why parts might (or might not) work for you in particular.

[Flexmoney]

Here is a recent stage from a local match. (hicap version)

fast_20.doc

Note that those walls (in reality) are 4ft wide. They probably had about 2ft in between them. The barrels (which look haphazard in the diagram) were placed such that you had to go to all three positions (left, center, and right).

T8 is a key target here, as it is tucked in.

Since the start position was right in the middle on the rear fault line, there was a strong urge to draw to the middle array (T4-T7). It was a clean and fast draw, straight up. We had 5 or 6 Master shooters at the match, and I think most of them choose to do that. I had one Master shooter that was squaded with me, I talked him out of it...and he has a smok'in smooth draw. [edit to add: He and I finished 1 and 2 on this stage, having gained a half second or more from stage tactics]

Why not take the middle array off the draw? Well, because...whatever your draw time is...you have given up most of that time by standing still. (OK...at least half of it.)

Now, usually I'd want to take T8 last. That is the target that sucks the shooter into a "hard" position...which I'd rather not have to come out of. In this case, however, there was a way out.

So, T8 became my draw target. The time it took me to get the gun out of the holster, I used that time to get into position for T8. After T8 I went right to T9...shift a bit of weight as I did so. That allowed me to start backing up while engaging T10. From T10, transition to T4...improving the angle for the center array while doing so. Take the center array T4 thru T7. Coming off T7, transition right to T1 and step thru to the left to finish on T2 & T3.

Here it is graphically. I've numbered my shooting positions. I used half numbers to show movement/transitions from positions.

fast_20_Flex.doc

Position 1 - T8 & T9

Position 1.5 - T10, while backing out

Position 2 - T4, T5, T6, T7

Position 2.5 - T1 while moving forward

Position 3 - T2 & T3

Usually I wouldn't want to take a target like T8 early, because the position sucks you in. Here, T9 & T10 provided an exit. And, the time it took to draw, provided an entry.

[CAB33]

Thanks Flex.

Edited September 23, 2008 by CAB33

[race1911]

Hey Flex...... Most of the experienced shooters I shoot with here in Canada usually start on their weak side where it is easier to do a reload from weak to strong as it avoids a potential DQ for breaking the 180 (10 round mag limit necessitates doing a reload while in the transition from side to side)......Unlike them I do barricades as you do, I usually go to the right as my firearm is on that side, quickly taking your first target as you acquire it while drawing and thereby start shooting earlier, ending up on the weak side outside to inside and ending on the most awkward shooting position......cheers !

Edited September 23, 2008 by race1911

[eerw]

I usually do what feels best...

but the difficulty of shot will make the decision..

think Max and TT call it hard and soft entrances and exits..

hard exit or entrance requires you to plant or keep planted to make a difficult shot, then move move. a soft one entrance or exit is where you are able to combine making the shot and movement or balance shift.

good skills to know and be able to perform to help you maximize the stage.

[Jake Di Vita]

One criteria I have is to always set up your positions with getting to the next position in mind.

I personally usually like to enter on the easiest target and leave on the 2nd easiest target - but I am comfortable leaving on a hard target (even steel). If you are doing your job there is really no difference. The only time that becomes bad is when your focus lapses and you miss the shot. Leaving on the easier target just gives you a little more leeway to the amount of focus required to make a good hit.

So in short...practice both. Because you never know what you are going to see come match time.

[Ramas]

Good thread!

For me it is better time if you are shooting when entering in to position, I cheked it with timer, but it depends. If you are confident with your hits, then you will have a big advantage when you are entering position on hard target, and if you will miss it is not so big problem, but if you will miss on leaving from position you are in big problem, because then you will need to stop lean back make a shot and go out and it is very time costly.

Other question. Is it wise to look on easy target to enter and easy target to exit if you break an order in an array if there are no activators or moving targets? Will your bigger transitions be faster than shooting setled in position and then going out without leaning?

Edited September 23, 2008 by Ramas

[XRe]

Smooth is part of fast (fast is also part of it... don't let anyone fool you otherwise). If you find that you're indexing all around the targets in a position to be able to enter and exit on relatively easy shots, you're wasting time. Suck it up and learn how to be focused on the difficult shots as you enter or exit All other things being equal, though, I try to pick out a smooth way through an array that allows me to be as much in motion as possible on the way in and on the way out... In general, avoid indexing the gun past targets you will later need to engage, unless you have good reason to do so (indexing to an activator, picking up the targets from a closer/easier location, etc)

Flex... without seeing the stage, there's no reliable way to tell, but the other route I'd have looked at is shooting T1-3 in that order, moving slightly left, if required, to pick up T3. That sets up T7-T4 in that order, on the move, pick up T10-8 from there, finishing on the "trap" target... Starting in the middle is a losing proposition, either way, unless the stage were to look radically different... From the diagram, it looks like you need to be left to hit T3, and forward/right to hit T8?

The general lesson there is figure out where you absolutely need to get to... and then pick the shortest route to get there, with the fewest stops in between.

[Flexmoney]

Other question. Is it wise to look on easy target to enter and easy target to exit if you break an order in an array...

Jake said:

One criteria I have is to always set up your positions with getting to the next position in mind.

I think of it in a similar way.

My whole goal is to get to the last shooting position as soon as possible, collecting points along the way.

When I look at a position, I think in terms of how long will I be "stuck" in this position (keeping me from my goal), and what can I do to get myself "unstuck" from this position as soon as possible.

For example, in the stage I posted above, if the walls had been wider...then I could have had my gun out and ready to shoot before getting to T8. In a case like that, I could have taken T10 coming in, then T8, and left backing out on T9. (of course, a change in stage design like that could change the entire plan as well)

[Flexmoney]

Flex... without seeing the stage, there's no reliable way to tell, but the other route I'd have looked at is shooting T1-3 in that order, moving slightly left, if required, to pick up T3. That sets up T7-T4 in that order, on the move, pick up T10-8 from there, finishing on the "trap" target... Starting in the middle is a losing proposition, either way, unless the stage were to look radically different... From the diagram, it looks like you need to be left to hit T3, and forward/right to hit T8?

I would have liked to have shot that order but it didn't work out that way.

Hard to tell from the diagram...which never really matches that stage on the ground. On the ground, if you had went left first, you would have wanted to shoot in the order you mentioned...T1>T2>T3. But, T3 sucked you in pretty hard, plus it was a slighty harder shot (not real hard, but T8 is a duck in a barrel)...that left no good exit stategy from the left array.

Diagrams suck for getting the specifics.

[XRe]

Diagrams suck for getting the specifics.

Yep... Would've boiled down to which way required less movement... if you had to move further left to get to T3 than you had to move right to get to T8, then starting on T8 is the answer (remember that you have to double that movement, either way, to get to the other side...)

Stage 15 at the OL10 Nationals was a good example of this stuff. For Open guys, there were two basic ways to shoot it. Each way had 6 setups required, but one way was 4-5 steps longer than the other... that distance adds up... Figuring 2 tenths a step, or so, on average, that's a second different between the two before you even start shooting. The disadvantage was that it added about 7 yards onto two already long shots on poppers, but... they weren't dramatically harder shots... Guess which route proved best for the super squad?

[benos]

One criteria I have is to always set up your positions with getting to the next position in mind.

Good one.

And it's interesting, to me, how long it took me to even think to try that. No one had ever mentioned it... One day I was experimenting going in and out of a barricade, and shooting targets on each side. Then for some reason, I set up on a target on the right (for example), remembered how that setup felt, then leaned around to see what the setup for the left target felt like. So then entering from the left, I set my body up for the right target, but shot the left target first. And man, the transition to the right target to the right target was lot quicker than anything I'd tried previously. (Of course you can only get away with that on "easier" target scenarios.)

Otherwise, there are so many possible variables between stages, shooter's preferences, and experience levels - it's not anything I ever felt could be mastered. Deciding on which target to shoot when is an ongoing experiment.

General guidelines I kept in mind... I personally usually shot the entire stage better if I took the time to get setup behind the gun before the first shot. If I came out blasting away, or blasted a close-up target as I was entering a position, often I would not shoot the rest of that position well.

But then if I was convinced the best way to shoot the stage was to blast an up-close target or two, I'd be sure to program and do a "second set-up" into my stage plan.

After a lot of time experimenting, I learned could "make up" about twice as much time leaving a position as I could entering it. So I would leave on the easiest target, if possible. Which also worked well with my "like to get started behind the gun" strategy.

be

[chuckbradley]

After a lot of time experimenting, I learned could "make up" about twice as much time leaving a position as I could entering it. So I would leave on the easiest target, if possible. Which also worked well with my "like to get started behind the gun" strategy.

be

Had to stop in and see what Brian had to say since at an Area 4 back in 97? we discussed this very thing. Brian is consistent. He said the exact same thing then. I adopted that strategy and liked it. One thing I also found was it helped me being a big guy getting stuck leaning into a position sometimes took for ever getting out. So if i could shoot while coming out it saved me time.

So most the time when leaning around a corner I will go right to the inside target and work my out, shooting as I am leaving.

I also found Brian to be correct on getting a good set up for your first shot. When starting on an easy shot I found it was typical to end up shooting loosely and points suffered. When i take the hard shot first and force myself to get a hard sight picture the points are much better for the stage.

[carinab]

Excellent stuff in this thread!

[Mo Hepworth]

I try to enter taking the hardest shot first (ie: steel at distance),..then back out on the up close targets,..unless the first target moving in is seen first, and easy,..then I can engage it going in....

I would prefer to take the easier shots last as I am moving out,..but sometimes I can see the easy target for almost a full second before seeing the next target or targets....I would also prefer to hit steel first,..as I know I hit it and can leave shooting targets. Leaving a position while engaging steel is a little risky,...a safe way is to engage the steel first.

[badchad]

Great answers BTW, you all definitely got me thinking. Thanks.