Big Match prizes

[atomicferret]

How has prize distribution been handled in the majority of the matches you have attended? Random draw? separate by division, or only overall matters?

which way do you prefer? Do you want to bring in new shooters, or the top competition? how do you decide?

I attended the MGM Ironman in 2007 and they did it by random draw, in 2008 it was separated by division and place of finish. I haven't got enough experience to say one is better than another.

[StealthyBlagga]

In recent years the trend has been towards separate prize tables for each division, which is now getting unwealdy (Open, Tac Scope, Tac Iron, HM Scope, HM Iron). I prefer the way it used to be done - score stage points by division, then combine the points at the end and walk a single prize table on a heads-up basis... this was much simpler and avoided the discontent caused by all the good stuff being stacked on one prize table (cough - Tac Scope - cough).

[dt1]

Depends on your thought process for prizes.

As stated above, many MD's try to build prize tables for each division with each table being roughly proportionate in value to the number of shooters in that division. Shooters visit the prize table in order of finish, the top finishing shooters get the best prizes.

We had a big rifle match in Birmingham last Spring, sponsors were generous, and we raffled everything off so everyone had a chance at the good stuff. Everyone paid the same match entry fee ($50.00) so everyone had the same chance at the prizes.

Neither is right or wrong, just different ways of doing things. Also, imo, neither way will really attract more or less shooters. The manner in which the prize table is handled will affect very few people's decision to attend, some, but not many. The quality of the match is what will attract shooters.

[kurtm]

If the tables are handled by division as they have been of late, I will start runnig a scope in tac optics. I can finish 10th in T.O. and still get a better prize than I would get for winning Iron Sight. It is kind of hard to take when you win your division and your prize is worth about 1/4 the value of the prize won by the 8th place finisher in T.O. The only exception to this is DPMS, where the top 3 in each division are tread exactly the same.

I will say this, no other sport does random draw, Auto racing?, Golf? Tennis? Eco-racing? Pro Ski racing? none of them do random draw..If the tables are random draw only we are rewarding luck rather than skill, and I for one woudn't value the prize I got by random draw nearly as much as one I had shot hard for and won. I know there are no great answers to this, but I say in order of finish.

Now before you guys start in on me because I am one of the "top shooters", understand this. I travel over-seas quite a bit to compete and over there ther are NO PRIZES. If you win you get a little medal on a purple ribbon, and that is it. It costs a boat load more to go shoot one of these shotgun or rifle matches than anyone pays to do so in the U.S. for no return other than the love of the game....and the beer! so I am not just "mercenary" when it comes to the prize table, but it should reward excelence. KurtM

[ShooterSteve]

Sometimes we share a wagon to put all of our three gun stuff on and the loser has to pull the wagon at the next match. Sometimes we get to be big spenders and wager a candy bar and drink after the match. The point I'm trying to make is, we go have fun, and cut up with our buddies. Prize tables are great, but it's all about the fun and friends. One of the best matches I've been to lately was Mike's down in Greenville SC, and there wasn't even a prize table but we had a hoot. Don't get me wrong, if there is a prize table at a match, I'm going to go get what ever I can (usually shock buffs or mag followers!!) but I just want to go shoot with my friends, and maybe make some new friends along the way.

[jdtravers]

If the tables are handled by division as they have been of late, I will start runnig a scope in tac optics. I can finish 10th in T.O. and still get a better prize than I would get for winning Iron Sight. It is kind of hard to take when you win your division and your prize is worth about 1/4 the value of the prize won by the 8th place finisher in T.O. The only exception to this is DPMS, where the top 3 in each division are tread exactly the same.

I will say this, no other sport does random draw, Auto racing?, Golf? Tennis? Eco-racing? Pro Ski racing? none of them do random draw..If the tables are random draw only we are rewarding luck rather than skill, and I for one woudn't value the prize I got by random draw nearly as much as one I had shot hard for and won. I know there are no great answers to this, but I say in order of finish.

Now before you guys start in on me because I am one of the "top shooters", understand this. I travel over-seas quite a bit to compete and over there ther are NO PRIZES. If you win you get a little medal on a purple ribbon, and that is it. It costs a boat load more to go shoot one of these shotgun or rifle matches than anyone pays to do so in the U.S. for no return other than the love of the game....and the beer! so I am not just "mercenary" when it comes to the prize table, but it should reward excelence. KurtM

I Agree. We all shoot for different reasons. I shoot for the competition. If I want social interaction, I go to the beach/surfing. Besides, I don't like any of you guys.

My opinion; Top three finish in each division (regardless of classification) should be awarded and the quality/value should be equal in each division. Then go with the random drawing. Who cares if you won 1st A in your division, when there were only three of you to start with. I won 1st Master at the last area 6 3 gun. Shot like crap and of course the remington took a dump, I think I was the only master and they had a plaque, so guess what? I got to go to the prize table ahead of people who performed better than I did.

We are starting to see an increase in Limited Division/Tactical Iron 3-Gun Competion and it is because of the dedication of guys like Kurt, Ted, and others. Call this your entry level 3 Gun if you want, but it is definitely the most challenging aspect of the three divisions. Shot with Kurt at the 2005 Area 6 match and I was impressed. I didn't know big guys could shoot iron sights and move that fast!

Pretty soon we will just give each other hugs at the end of the match.

Edited September 17, 2008 by jdtravers

[Chuck Anderson]

I've been to matches that do the prizes just about every way imaginable. My two pet peeves are inconsistency and not recognizing the sponsors contribution. As an example of inconsistency, either changing the prize structure every year, not following published guidelines or coming up with some weird random thing. I finished 2nd at the MGM Ironman a few years ago. I walked the prize table around 30th? A couple years ago I actually managed to win Tactical Optics there and finished 2nd overall at the match. I got a $250.00 gift cert. The winners of Limited, Trooper and Open all received guns. At the Florida Open the last time I went they just handed you a random bag. I finished second in Production and got a bunch of used gun store crap.

I don't agree with Kurt that all the Divisions should be treated the same. If you're going to split the tables it should be based on participation. If there were 180 shooters in one Division and the other only had 20, the top 3 prizes shouldn't be the same. I don't know how to make it more equitable though. Maybe combining the tables is a good thing, I'm not sure. I know that Kurt will beat me with his Iron sight rifle to my optic sighted rifle and I shouldn't be getting a better prize than him.

As for not recognizing the sponsors, look at the way USPSA has done the pistol nationals for the last several years. Does anyone that didn't finish in the top 16 know anything about what the sponsors donated? USPSA keeps the prize tables locked up and hidden away. The only time you get to see them is when you go in to get your prize. I think it does a huge disservice to the sponsors. If Smith & Wesson donated 20 guns, I want to know. If STI donated four complete limited guns, I want to know. Area 2/SMM3G know how to lay a prize table out. Set it up and let everyone see. It benefits the sponsors, the match and the shooters.

[bigbrowndog]

there is a lot of talk about iron sight divisions not producing the numbers of shooters of the other divisions and so they should get lighter prize table awards, I think MD should consider that the lighter numbers could be a result of the less reward for effort part as well.

I shoot Irons almost without fail, (I ONCE shot a scope in a major comp.) however like my buddy Kurt has said I am considering switching to an optic simply because in the end the payoff tends to be substantially better, I have seen this trend happening for the last 10yrs or so, first with pistol and now with multi gun/3 gun. I also do not compete for the prize, and like Kurt shoot more overseas matches that do not have prize tables. Rather I really appreciate the competition and the freinds and environment more than anything.

However if you are going ot award effort and excellence then it should be done fairly and equally across the board, the top 10% have undoubtedly put in the effort and paid their dues, as it were, and they are not there because of luck, but due to extra time and effort. That effort should be rewarded, it instills in the others the knowledge that if they put in the effort and time then they can reap the same rewards. Its what made me focus on this sport. prize tables are difficult to set up and be equitable however they are not THAT difficult, it simply takes the same amount of effort was put into having your match, in the end you can have a great match and people will leave it with bad feelings simply because you dropped the ball on the awards, I've seen it many times and it still irritates me, probably because the Iron sight divisions are the ones that tend to get screwed.

the all scores combined and one prize table sounds interesting, it would also allow for a MATCH WINNER. which we do not currently have.

Trapr

[badchad]

I’m still a relatively new shooter but for the record I hate random prizes, and I hate raffles. I’m not buying a ticket for a chance at “winning” something there I don’t need or want. I much prefer to earn a prize by shooting well. I liked the way they handled the prize tables at the recent nationals, where you got your pick of things based on your overall placing. I just ended up with a cool hat I will wear, and a bunch of other things I won't use much, but at least I got to pick it out, and the hat will mean something because I won it based on performance. Other than that I don’t have much of an opinion on how to split things by division.

Edited September 17, 2008 by badchad

[dogdoc]

"However if you are going ot award effort and excellence then it should be done fairly and equally across the board, the top 10% have undoubtedly put in the effort and paid their dues, as it were, and they are not there because of luck, but due to extra time and effort. That effort should be rewarded, it instills in the others the knowledge that if they put in the effort and time then they can reap the same rewards."

This statement by Trapr is dead on, and as the saying goes "sometimes the truth hurts". This is where most believe that order of finish will only award the same "top shooters" at every match. Well, hard work and practice don't make you a good shooter at one match, it makes you a good shooter every time, if you are willing to make the effort. I despise raffles, only because of my luck!!! If there are 11 tickets in a bucket and I had 10 and KurtM had 1 I would lose

As far as making the tables equal among the divisions, if you look at the percentage of shooters in each division they usually are equal. What I mean is if you take the top 10% of shooters (just a random number) in each division, then generally they get somewhat equitable prizes. For example, at RM3G there were 124 TO shooters and around 25 TI (can't remember exactly). So, that would be 12 shooters in TO and about 3 in TI that won similar prizes from what I saw of the prize tables, guns or complete uppers. The remaining prizes were also very similar. If this math is too complicated for you Kurt let me know

After typing all of that crap I vote for order of finish, get a prize you earned and chose!!

[Bill Sahlberg]

Like what was already mentioned above, shooting matches should be about shooting, NOT prize tables. However, there are very different opinions and since the last post doesn't like the random raffle, I thought now would be a good time to state my .02 cents. First of all, no matter which way a prize table is distributed, these prizes are ALL ABOUT THE SPONSORS, not the shooters. We get some prizes for free, some with deep discounts, and still some must be paid for at full price. It is paramount that the Match advertises the Prize Table distribution BEFORE the match. If you do not care for the way they are running it, simply stated, stay home!

The matches that our club in the great NW run are by random raffle, we get 50 shooters and we have $5,000-$10,000 to split up on the prize table. Nobody goes home without a prize at least worth half their entry fee. All the Trophies and awards are by order of finish but the prizes are given away by random shooter number. At the shooters meeting, before a shot is even fired, we "raffle" the biggest prize, this year it is a DPMS AR-15 worth $750+. Two years ago, a 12 year old Junior won a very tricked out DPMS AR-15 worth $2,000. There was not a single shooter there that begrudged this Junior as we will be pushing up the Daisies while he is still shooting this rifle!

This may rub some people the wrong way with this philosophy, but really what does the "Top Shooter" really need? Another gun to sell? Another scope to sell? An unwanted Gift Certificate for somethingg that he already has? This game is NOT about the best shooters as much as it is about bringing MORE shooters into the sport. Don't forget here, the Top Shooters have the same chance of winning that AR15 as does the first time shooter. We also have several prizes that someone will designate as a "Crease Award" or the closest to 50%. Why? This 50% person is the backbone of our sport, he has got good enough with whatever equipment he has but most likely is going to stay in the game and get better. This person needs better equipment than the Top Shooters.

No matter what way you decide to give away these prizes, two things must happen. First the SPONSORS get their due recognition and promotion and the Match Administrators must advertise up front how these prizes are distributed. The awards are definately about shooter placement but the prize table should be 100% about the SPONSORS!

Bill Sahlberg

[Big Bore]

I admit I like to win stuff. It is always good to brag to the guys at work that you won a rifle or pistol.

I typically shoot TAC Irons. This year in Raton I came in 4th place out of total of 9 shooters. By just eyeballing the scores if I could have switched over to TAC Scope I probably would have come home with an upper or a gun even shooting irons. I wish there was a way to be scored on more even plane. I am not trying to be critical or put down the way things are run, I know it is difficult running these events.

[Chris]

This may rub some people the wrong way with this philosophy, but really what does the "Top Shooter" really need? Another gun to sell? Another scope to sell? An unwanted Gift Certificate for somethingg that he already has?

Sponsors should come first and they should get what they pay for, advertising and recognition.

I vote for 'order of finish'. I think my practice and hard work should be rewarded if I finish well.

I may not be a "Top Shooter" like Kurt and the other guys, but I do love to shoot and manage to finish well. Winning prizes I can sell is how I pay for my shooting expenses and everybody knows how expensive it has gotten lately.

Like Kurt said above, no other sport offers prizes at random, PGA, NASCAR, Motocross, etc.. all order of finish...

[badchad]

I can’t think of any reason why giving out prizes in order of finish and letting competitors pick what they want in any way hurts the SPONSORS. I also don’t think randomly giving out prizes does anything special to help the sport and retention. What message does it send? “Practice as hard as you can to be the best and watch some newbie or loafer walk away with the best prize based on chance.”

Also I bet for every example of a random prize given to needy Junior, I’m sure there are several examples of less needy folks walking home with spoils they neither need and maybe don’t even want. Heck I’ve watched people get stuck with t-shirts that don’t fit. In my experience the best random prizes often go to the rich guy who can afford the most raffle tickets rather than the hardest working shooter with skills. I don’t think it’s a good message to send, nor one that’s optimal for growing the sport.

[Chuck Anderson]

Winning prizes I can sell is how I pay for my shooting expenses and everybody knows how expensive it has gotten lately.

While I agree wtih you, I'm not sure this is the best argument to use. Shooting has gotten expensive lateley, for everyone. I'm sure everyone, from the top finisher to the last place finisher could stand to have some expenses paid by winning something.

Trapr. You're right the top levels should be somewhat even across the top. But if there are 120 shooter in TO and 12 in TI, I don't think the top 3 should pay the same, as mentioned by Kurt. Maybe the top 1 in TI. But that is as far down as 10% goes. Is it right to award someone for beating 11 other people the same as the person who beat 119?

[kellyn]

Guys, there were only 11 shooters in Tac Iron at RM3G and 130 in Tac Scope. The prize table is naturally going to be significantly more robust for Tac Scope. But I do agree that Tac Iron prize tables have seemingly been afterthoughts at some major matches (except DPMS). Prizes should be doled out in some proportion to the number of people competing in a division.

I agree that matches should not be about prize tables but we (at least in 3 Gun) are living in a golden age of generous sponsorship so we might as well enjoy it. We should defintely thank the stars for the number of our generous sponsors! But beyond prize tables, we are also living in the golden age of both the number and quality of matches.

Random draws (with some exceptions for special categories as RM3G did theirs) are either the work of the devil or the work of a grade-school teacher who wants to make sure everybody feels like they've won at dodgeball.

If we are going to have prize tables, then it should be heads up. The first pick ought to go to the competitor with the most drive, dedication, skill, luck, perseverance etc etc. (even if it is Daniel Horner everytime ). Because I guarantee that order of finish respects those who have put the most time and effort into the sport. They are the ones at the range when it's too cold or hot or wet or dry. They are the ones dryfiring instead of going out to a movie or hittting the bar or whatever. They are the ones who spent more time at the loading press (well maybe not the AMU shooters!). They are the ones who purchased the most primers, powder, etc, etc. That hard work should be rewarded.

[D.Hayden]

Nice summation Kelly. I agree 100%.

If the prize tables are setup by percentage of shooters = percentage of prize tables.. what could be fairer than that (if you're going by performance).

Since most 3Gun matches don't use classes for awards, etc.. one thing I think will happen.. as prize tables get larger, and entry fees go up to accommodate them... we'll lose the lower level shooters if the fees get too high.

And no.. I do not want classes in 3Gun.. lol

[kurtm]

DogDoc, believe it or not, I am good at math! Not so much spelling, but quite good at math.

Lets look at RM3G, as you wanted to. Top finish in Tactical Optic won a J.P. CTR-02 rifle worth about $2300.00 (actual price), Second in Tac Optic won a J.P. CTR-02 worth about $2300.00 Third in Tac Optic won a Saber Defense 6.5 Grendle rifle worht about $2250.00 ( MSRP ). Now on to the wonderful world of Tactical Iron. Robbie Johnson won a rifle worth about $900.00 for his first place finsh. I won a $500.00 check, Bruce Piatt for third won a Springfield Armory XD worth about $500. Now just so we can be clear on "equity" of prizes we will look at the difference between the top 3 in these classes

1st in T.O = $2300.00, 1st in T.I. = $900.00 difference = $1400.00 more for T.O.

2nd in T.O. = $2300.00, 2nd in T.I. = $500.00 difference = $1800.00 more for T.O.

3rd in T.O. = $2250.00, 3rd in T.I. = $500.00 difference = $ 1750 more for T.O.

Now total for the first 3 places in each class is $6850.00 for T.O. and $1900.00 for T.I. I fail to see how these are similar as you state. Where am I going wrong? If they were similar wouldn't they be of about equal value, or is an XD pistol similar to a 6.5 Grendle Rifle??

Now I AM NOT picking on RM3G, I am just answering your post about "similar", and I don't mind that I got $500.00, as I sure didn't shoot to my capability, BUT Robbie Johnson shot one of the very best matches I have ever seen ANYONE shoot and, in My opinion, got much less than he deserved.

This is no anomally either, SMM3G and CMMG were the very same way, or even a bit worse when it came to equity in the top finishers by division. So with this in mind, are our prize tables going to kill off T.I., H.M., and Open? I sure am thinking of grabbing a scope and taking my chances in T.O. I just don't see a down side. I am pretty sure I can finish in the top 10 and will increase my "similar winnings" KurtM

[jbullgpd]

All valid points.....Hard to pick just one point of view since they all have there pros and cons. I don't envy any of the MD's having to choose, I have had my hand in on a couple of local matches with prizes and you are never going to make everyone happy. As for TI and TO, I like the RMG from a few years ago that I shot, 2006 I think, the rifle was scored different and in the end it was combined for an overall of TI and TO. I was just one place short of a gun, argh, lol. This seemed fair to me as far as prizes went, Taran won first of course but I think the TI winner actually came up second overall and got a great prize as well. Maybe for 3 Gun that would help with the diff in TI&TO and also HM and HMO. Rifle diff but overall together. I dunno, seems to make sense to me but in the end you will never make everyone happy. It does seem to reward the iron shooters for shooting the irons yet not alienate them when it comes to the end prize table. My 2 cents

[TMC]

Just to add something and bitch a little, the 2007 Ironman was random draw because the scoring was delayed and not complete until days after the match. This year is was order of finish and I couldn't make it. In 2007 I was 3rd open, 7th overall and got a back pack. There were several guns on each table this year for the order of finish distribution. Can you tell which prize distribution I prefer?

[dogdoc]

Sorry Kurt, I thought I saw at least 1 JP rifle on every prize table at RM3G! I'm almost positive the HOA HM iron won a JP.

[bigbrowndog]

A point Kurt failed to mention of even greater difference was HM iron, first got a 2800.00 rifle and second got 500.00 check, now I did get to shoot a plate with a slug so thats my fault among other things.

considering the wide variety of available items the disparity is just as wide.

all that said, I am very thankful that we can still enjoy the variety and abundance of matches that we have, and of course that we have the manufacturers/ sponsors that make all this bickering and venting possible.

However, I do think that the U.S. is eroding the iron/standard divisions away, and when "World 3 gun" and "International 3 gun" arrives what will all the Tac optic shooters do??????????????shoot Open???????

[kurtm]

Nope, no J.P. on Iron. I wish there had been for Robbies sake, but sadly no! KurtM

[Bill Sahlberg]

There is no "inequity" with the random draw as everyone has the same chance in winning whatever prize is selected. By order of finish is fine, most matches are that way. However, as stated above a winner in one Division gets a prize worth $2300 and a winner in another Division gets $500. Why go to these matches just to pillage a prize table?

Maybe because you think that you "deserve" something because you worked harder, trained harder, and shot more? As a sponsor who gets 300+ requests a year, we look for more sales and more publicity so that we have the profit to give back to the industry. As stated earlier this mentality breeds greed and pushes sponsors away from helping. Sponsors want more sales and more customers and the Top Dogs have everything they need.

Am I a Democrat? Hell no, I believe in capitalism to the core. Do I want to spread the wealth? Hell YES! The 50% winner of a new piece of equipment will treasure that equipment and tell everyone how great the company was that sponsored it. if it is a gun, it will probably be kept as a keepsake forever continually giving the promotion back to the sponsor that we all hoped for and wanted. A top shooter that wins a $750 gun, baa, sell it for $400 as he wants the cash and will not do any promotion whatsoever. Who is perpetuating the sport? The newbies and 50% shooters, the top guys are staying around for the thrill and fun, those under 50%, well honestly speaking, many are destined to find another sport......

I am not saying that everyone should change to a random raffle prize distribution, I just gave you the defense of why we run our matches that way. I also do not think that all matches should run the same scoring nor have all the same stage design. What makes America great and keeps our shooting sports alive is change, innovation, and freedom to think outside the box. If you do not like a way a match runs, a type of scoring system is used, or the way a prize table is distributed, just stay home and vote with your wallet.

Bill Sahlberg

Marketing Director

MGM Targets

www.mgmtargets.com

1-208-989-7511

"This may rub some people the wrong way with this philosophy, but really what does the "Top Shooter" really need? Another gun to sell? Another scope to sell? An unwanted Gift Certificate for somethingg that he already has? This game is NOT about the best shooters as much as it is about bringing MORE shooters into the sport. Don't forget here, the Top Shooters have the same chance of winning that AR15 as does the first time shooter".

[AFH]

I am enjoying following this discussion and it wold be nice if there was a concensus, but that is probably impossible! The Blue Ridge match this year, and next year unless a better answer comes up here, proportioned the prize table by participation in each division/class.

For an example: Given 100 total shooters participating in a match, 70 in TacOptics, 10 in Open, 10 in TacIron, and 10 in HeaveyMetal; A prize table worth $40,000; and equal distrobution on a per shooter basis. TacOptics will have $28,000 on its table, Open will have $4000, TacIron $4000 and HM $4000.

The problem comes when you then put a $2000 rifle at the head of each table. Strictly speaking, the O,TI, HM tables would then only have $2000 to use between the rest of the competitors in the divisions. This is not fair to the members of the smaller divisions. What happened at Blue Ridge is that, proportionatly, the competitors in TacOptics probably averaged a few dollars less value than those in the other divisions, in order to make the top of each group balance a little better.

As an organizer, you are stuck trying to make the first, middle, and last prizes in each division proportionate. First in each division should be roughly equivalent, the prize 10% down should be roughly equivalent, and so forth. The rub is that the person 10% down in TI is second in his division, and the person 10% down in TO is 10th in his division. This makes it a tough job to be/seem equitable to all persons and divisions.

At Blue Ridge we were able to have very nice rifles on each division's table thanks to the Sponsors of our chosen sport. I hope, and think, that will be the case at the 2009 match in Kentucky. We must remember that having a prize table at all is great thing and one we must thank the sponsors for. These business are spending their advertising dollars on our matches and need to see some return on their investment: with purchases, recommendations, and any good publicity we can give them throughout the year.

As you can probably tell, I am not a proponent of grouping the divisions together for prize table distribution. The playing fields are not level with different equipment requirements and participation levels. If there is to be one group at the end, I would run a match with the rules allowing an optic on one gun (basically like TacOptics), and let everyone run what they bring that fits into those rules. I also understand Bill's point above, and agree with many of his assertions; however, I also think the match winners should be rewarded for their excellence. One other note, I don't think the matches, or their prize tables, are eroding the TacIron shooter numbers. All that is needed is for more shooters to choose that division. It seems that for whatever reason, TacOptics is the prefered division for the great majority of shooters.

If a better solution arises, please let me know!!

Andy

P.S.-- Thanks for the SG no-shoot tips, Trapr. Some will be appearing at the BRM3G this year!