Different Multi-Gun Rules, which is the best?

[busyhawk]

I just got my copy of the Front Sight. Michael Voigt (USPSA President) rants about other NON-USPSA matches and the repeating history of mistakes other Non-USPSA Multigun matches are making. Is the USPSA scoring/running the best in history? He goes on to talk about a friend that went on to win a match but didn't know the rules...is this common? I am in no way a new guy to the sport but want to know other opinions and what the others say. The largest multi-gun matches seem to be Non-USPSA...is it the scoring or prize table or what? Area 1 2008 couldn't even have a Multi-gun Championships level 2 match because of lack of attendance.

I have come to like the Horner scoring but if a shooter doesn't like it then don't shoot it. I believe we all know this is a volunteer sport and we all have a choice.

Scott Hawkins

AKA Busyhawk

[ap3]

I just got my copy of the Front Sight. Michael Voigt (USPSA President) rants about other NON-USPSA matches and the repeating history of mistakes other Non-USPSA Multigun matches are making. Is the USPSA scoring/running the best in history? He goes on to talk about a friend that went on to win a match but didn't know the rules...is this common? I am in no way a new guy to the sport but want to know other opinions and what the others say. The largest multi-gun matches seem to be Non-USPSA...is it the scoring or prize table or what? Area 1 2008 couldn't even have a Multi-gun Championships level 2 match because of lack of attendance.

I have come to like the Horner scoring but if a shooter doesn't like it then don't shoot it. I believe we all know this is a volunteer sport and we all have a choice.

Scott Hawkins

AKA Busyhawk

My 2 cents:

I believe prize table makes a big difference.

Quality of stage design is important.

Professional RO's make a difference.

Scoring and rules do not make a difference to me if they are posted prior to the match. I feel it is sloppy match management to not post the rules or scoring system prior to the match. I went to a match this year with the standard bird shot only to find I needed buckshot for the "heavied up" steel. If this break in the tradional ammo rules had been posted it would have been no big deal, but instead it made for a very frustrating match.

I agree that the safety rules should be standardized across all 3 gun, but scoring is no big deal.

[Bill Sahlberg]

My first 3 Gun Nationals was in 1991 in Marysville, WA. I was squaded with Michael Voigt who won the match against a heavy favorite named J. Michael Plaxco. USPSA has had these 18 years to try to consolidate the 3 Gun shooting community but has failed to have the ideal "one umbrella" that we all long for.

Why? Most non-USPSA 3 Gun / Multi-Gun events are better managed and more creative because the match staff is not quarentined by the USPSA pistol rules trying to govern long guns. Prize tables help, whatever scoring method one chooses, and good ROs make great matches. No matter what the scoring method used, no matter what the stages are like in quality, and no matter what rules govern, the Top Dogs are still the Top Dogs because of the skills they possess.

I was at the match that MV was talking about with Horner scoring and unlike the 'whiner' in Mike's article, I was aware of the rules and scoring before I came. How can somebody go to any match without knowing what the match is all about? The Horner scoring does reward accuracy and I personally liked this scoring method never seeing it used before. With all that said, every competitor at the match had to shoot the match the same way, same rules, and same scoring. It is too bad that some of the best shooters in the country come to any match thinking that the match should be all about them instead of about the entire competition.

Bill Sahlberg

L1283

[Steve J]

I thought the comment in the Front Sight article about time plus scoring turning the event into a bulls-eye match was completely over the top and uncalled for.

[M ammo]

"""""""""""""""Why? Most non-USPSA 3 Gun / Multi-Gun events are better managed and more creative because the match staff is not quarentined by the USPSA pistol rules trying to govern long guns."""""""""""""""""

Well said.

If you only knew.

Jim M ammo

[Religious Shooter]

I thought the comment in the Front Sight article about time plus scoring turning the event into a bulls-eye match was completely over the top and uncalled for.

I haven't read the article yet. But if time plus scoring = "Horner" scoring (instead of the "original" IMGA time plus scoring)... I actually would have to somewhat agree with the article.

I shot the R&R match a couple of months(?) ago. I have never taken so many head shots at a match in my life (due to the scoring).

Instead of a "bulls-eye" match... he would have been more accurate if the article said it is a "head shot" match.

[Merlin Orr]

I believe the last couple of threads about scoring has already pretty well polarized the members here. There are very strong opinions on both sides differing only in that some feel that every shooter should be forced to shoot by "their" rules while (dare I say) the large majority feel that all types of matches and scoring can be lived with and enjoyed. Let your match entry fee be your vote for your choice.

Die thread, Die.

[J-Ho]

Gee, I haven't heard this argument before...........

+1 to what Merlin said. Die thread die!

[55fmj]

Not to hijack the thread, but at our mathes we use straight time plus misses or penalties. Each miss or penalty is added to the overall time for the stage and that is the final time. The lower the time, the higher you place. It is easy to calculate and everyone seems to be happy with it. What is everyone's opinions on this type of scoring ? thanks

[D.Hayden]

That's Timeplus or IMG scoring (I think) - it's used at most non USPSA matches.. I like it, for the reasn you said.. easy to know what my 'rank' was without looking at a calculator..

My vote: scoring.. whatever you'd like to use... lol

You're hostng a match.. I'm not going to complain.

[Tom Freeman]

Not to hijack the thread, but at our mathes we use straight time plus misses or penalties. Each miss or penalty is added to the overall time for the stage and that is the final time. The lower the time, the higher you place. It is easy to calculate and everyone seems to be happy with it. What is everyone's opinions on this type of scoring ? thanks

Thats known as "Time Plus" Al.

I have no problem with it.

[Religious Shooter]

I just got my copy of the Front Sight. Michael Voigt (USPSA President) rants about other NON-USPSA matches and the repeating history of mistakes other Non-USPSA Multigun matches are making. Is the USPSA scoring/running the best in history? He goes on to talk about a friend that went on to win a match but didn't know the rules...is this common? I am in no way a new guy to the sport but want to know other opinions and what the others say. The largest multi-gun matches seem to be Non-USPSA...is it the scoring or prize table or what? Area 1 2008 couldn't even have a Multi-gun Championships level 2 match because of lack of attendance.

I have come to like the Horner scoring but if a shooter doesn't like it then don't shoot it. I believe we all know this is a volunteer sport and we all have a choice.

Scott Hawkins

AKA Busyhawk

Well I finally got my copy of Front Sight and read Voigt's section. So I can make an educated response...

Is the USPSA scoring/running the best in history?

No it isn't. But it is more consistent.

He goes on to talk about a friend that went on to win a match but didn't know the rules...is this common?

Well as far as knowing the rules... yes. It's common for the shooters to not fully be aware of the rules.

For the match in question, the scoring system changed from last year from IMGA Time Plus to the Horner method. The first time I learned about the change was from other shooters at a different match. I told the other people in the carpool I was with... and for at least two of them it was the first time they had heard of the change.

The match in question didn't notify all of the competitors directly of the change. I certainly wasn't told directly. The person Voigt was talking about wasn't told directly. And the people in my carpool weren't told directly either.

And when we got there... one of my car pooling buddies asked the MD what the rules were on the magazine tube for the shotgun. Was it 9 max throughout the stage? Or was it 9 at the start (and you can load it up 9+ rds)?

The match's rule book said 9 rd max... the MD said 9 at the start (and you can load it up 9+ rds).

For that match it was common for the shooters to not know (fully) the rules. Hell... the MD was shakey on it too.

I (re)read each match's rulebook that I go to. But AFAIK I am the exception and not the rule.

The largest multi-gun matches seem to be Non-USPSA...is it the scoring or prize table or what?

All of the other matches have been around for years (decades?) and have relatively fixed locations and dates.

The USPSA matches tend to move around and the dates move around quite a bit.

Personally... Scoring and prize table I largely don't care. But if there were two matches that were exactly the same I would choose the match that had IMGA Time Plus (or even USPSA comstock --- as long as I didn't have to personally write down and score) over one with Horner Scoring. And I would of course choose the match with the better prize table given the match fees wasn't that much greater than the other match.

The match that was being discussed (IMHO) was a good match. But did it improve from the previous year? I would say no.

[busyhawk]

Thank you all for the information and candid responses. I now know more than when I started this thread and thank all that responded to my request/questions. An informed shooter is a better shooter.

Scott Hawkins

AKA Busyhawk

[mlmiller1]

We have a new pistol club & have just started shooting 3-gun along with the pistol. For now, we are using uspsa rules. The rules are printed, they are available to anyone that wants to read them, they are consistent, & they are "defendable" in that if anyone has a complaint, you can just have them read the rules. That is the main reason we are using them now.

I do the scoring most times so that isn't a problem either.

I figured we had enough things going on as we started all this that adapting some other rules or modifying other rules or making up our own wasn't a good idea. Sometime in the future, we may go with a different rule set or whatever but now, it is uspsa rules. Here is a favorite saying that I apply to me: K.I.S.S. (keep it simple, stupid). hahaha.

MLM

[bigbrowndog]

Its only common for a shooter to NOT now the rules if they CHOOSE to not read them, prior to showing up at the match.

If you decide that you do not like a certain rule set, then don't participate in that match!!!! its really simple.

I feel the article was in very poor taste and based on one persons opinion.

Trapr

[SinistralRifleman]

Matches are a product available in a free market economy. Adam Smith's Invisible hand will tell you what the best set of rules is...which matches are sold out and which type attract the most shooters across the country? Matches will give shooters what they want, or they will go elsewhere and find another match better to their liking.

Someone advocating only one governing body for multi-gun competition, might as well be advocating Taco Bell have a monopoly on the restaurant industry. You'll always know what to order because the menus are all the same, this doesn't mean the food is the best though, and what motivation is there to make it better if they are the only option?