XD9 Service for IDPA penalized?

[awmp]

Why is the XD pistol considered a Custom Defense Pistol when I shooting it stock from the factory?

Currently deployed to the sand box and before my deployment my wife gave me a XD9 Service model, I'm an IDPA member buy my travel agent (US Army-MP) always seems to think I need to travel and see the world instead of be home shooting matches.

Shooting an factory stock XD in the CDP class seems like a huge disadvantage. The XD is a glock (no flaming) with a grip safety.

[J-Ho]

If I remember right, it's because of the action. Just get a really good trigger job on it, and then shoot the hell out of it, disadvantage cured. Or shoot it in ESP.

[el pres]

CDP ???

I've always shot the XD in ESP, I thought that was the only place it fit ??

[cnote]

CPD= .45 ACP, don't know about the GAP. Also, you can only load to 8+1 as it was the category for 1911's. So the XD45 could shoot CDP with 8+1 or esp or ssp at 10+1. but you MAY consider it a disadvantage shooting against 9mm guns.

[Taildraggerdave]

The title on the original post is for an XD9 Service so that would go in ESP. That's it, no other classes will allow it. IF, it was an XD 45 then you would go in CDP because it's a .45 and you need to make 165 power factor. ESP only has a power factor of 125 so that is where your 9mm would go.

I've been running my XD9 Tactical in ESP for a while now and it has worked very well for me.

FWIW, the 2007 IDPA National Champ in CDP was on an XD45.

Take care,

Dave

Edited August 31, 2008 by Taildraggerdave

[sirveyr]

The title on the original post is for an XD9 Service so that would go in ESP. That's it, no other classes will allow it. IF, it was an XD 45 then you would go in CDP because it's a .45 and you need to make 165 power factor. ESP only has a power factor of 125 so that is where your 9mm would go.

I've been running my XD9 Tactical in ESP for a while now and it has worked very well for me.

FWIW, the 2007 IDPA National Champ in CDP was on an XD45.

Take care,

Dave

I thought that David Olhasso shot an M&P last year?

[Taildraggerdave]

The title on the original post is for an XD9 Service so that would go in ESP. That's it, no other classes will allow it. IF, it was an XD 45 then you would go in CDP because it's a .45 and you need to make 165 power factor. ESP only has a power factor of 125 so that is where your 9mm would go.

I've been running my XD9 Tactical in ESP for a while now and it has worked very well for me.

FWIW, the 2007 IDPA National Champ in CDP was on an XD45.

Take care,

Dave

I thought that David Olhasso shot an M&P last year?

Here is an exerpt from XD Talk Forums. I was basing my statement on this:

I have used an XD9 Tactical for competition for the past two years. Fantastic gun, and, yes, it has to be used in ESP instead of SSP. And it can hold its own against 1911s.

I won ESP Sharpshooter with my XD at this year's IDPA Nationals, and the CDP Division (the 1911 Division) was won by David Olhasso with an XD45 Tactical. 1911s are nice but they aren't the only big dog in the division anymore.

The drop-in jobs improve the pull, but the best results come from an actual gunsmith working on your trigger. Mine was done by Canyon Creek, and I think it's outstanding.

Best,

Jim

Take care,

Dave

[kdmoore]

short answer: because it does.

longer answer: because the ruling says it does.

longer answer than above: because the trigger only releases the striker, and thus deemed Single Action. Glocks and others are not like this.

longer answer than above: because when deciding division, trigger action is considered. And the feel of the trigger being the same-ish as other polymer pistols was not the criteria. Only two types are noted, Single action and non single actions. Non single actions include double action/single actions, double action only as well as others that AREN'T double actions ... i.e. safe action, light double action, and others that I'm sure I'm forgetting.

Conspiratitorial answer: Glock operatives infiltrated Berryville and influenced their decision by nefarious means.

The answer you need most: It doesn't matter, your pistol is more than capable of winning your division at the matches you attend ... are you?

[J-Ho]

The answer you need most: It doesn't matter, your pistol is more than capable of winning your division at the matches you attend ... are you?

I like that answer the best.

[ajg308]

ATF classified the XD as a single action pistol. This makes it only legal in ESP or CDP. since your gun is not a 45 ACP you cannot shoot it in CDP, your correct division is ESP.

Why is the XD pistol considered a Custom Defense Pistol when I shooting it stock from the factory?

Currently deployed to the sand box and before my deployment my wife gave me a XD9 Service model, I'm an IDPA member buy my travel agent (US Army-MP) always seems to think I need to travel and see the world instead of be home shooting matches.

Shooting an factory stock XD in the CDP class seems like a huge disadvantage. The XD is a glock (no flaming) with a grip safety.

[RobMoore]

Blame the croatians.

[RickB]

Isn't any gun without restrike capability actually single action? If you have to cycle the slide to reset the trigger, it's single action, right?

[Loves2Shoot]

Isn't any gun without restrike capability actually single action? If you have to cycle the slide to reset the trigger, it's single action, right?

Like a Glock?

Single action double action refers to revolvers. IDPA is way behind the curve with new striker fired pistols, but an XD can run with any of the guns in CDP or ESP.

Edited August 31, 2008 by Loves2Shoot

[revchuck]

Single action double action refers to revolvers.

Nope. DA/SA refers to handguns capable of firing in both modes, and commonly is used to describe pistols like the Beretta 9X series, SIG-Sauer P22X series, etc. These are fired DA for the first shot, then SA for the following ones.

[Loves2Shoot]

The terms SA and DA came from revos and were later applies autos, I typoed what I was trying to say the first time.

[Duane Thomas]

My understanding has always been that the term "double action" means that when you pull the trigger it causes the hammer or striker to do two thing: it goes to the rear and is then released to go forward. The term "single action" means that when you pull the trigger it only causes the hammer/striker to do one thing: it releases it to go forward. Therefore a double action gun must start with the hammer/striker at least partially forward; a single action must start with the hammer/striker fully to the rear. Since on the Glock, when you pull the trigger, it pulls the striker to the rear, then releases it to go forward, the Glock is a double action. Since on the XD the striker is already held fully to the rear, and pulling the trigger only releases it to go forward, the XD is a single action.

[Loves2Shoot]

Since on the XD the striker is already held fully to the rear, and pulling the trigger only releases it to go forward, the XD is a single action.

Thank is not technically correct. It does move the striker rearward before releasing it, just not very much. Just put your finger on the cocked chamber indicator and you can feel it move rearward when you pull the trigger.

In thinking with a double action your could repeatably pull the trigger to make the hammer strike, ala Sig P226 or CZ75, or an old time double action revolver.

The XD is closer to a Glock in action than Sig of CZ in the action, and not by a little bit IMO, but IDPA had decided it is MUCH better than a Glock and must be in ESP

Edited September 19, 2008 by Loves2Shoot

[RobMoore]

I don't think the terms double or single action should apply to guns like the Glock, XD, M&P, ect.

I know the below explanation is going to be quite elementary, and you all know this stuff already, but I'm saying it to best describe my point of view.

Semi autos like the SIG, 1911s, Berettas, ect work off a sprung hammer being tensioned (whether with the trigger press or prior to) and released to exert its mass and velocity on a firing pin, to strike the primer. The disadvantage (often real, sometimes only perceived) of the double action is that the shooter must press through a stronger and more lengthy trigger than a single action gun. This isn't the case with striker fired guns.

Striker fired guns like the Glock and XD, regardless of how much the trigger moves the striker, act directly on the firing mechanism, and with little variation, have similar strengths of trigger and similar lengths of presses.

Neither Springfield nor the ATF runs IDPA. IDPA does. There is nothing stopping them from defining all these guns as striker fired guns, and allowing them in both SSP and ESP, regardless of how the manufacturer or the BATF defines them.

Edited September 19, 2008 by RobMoore

[Filishooter]

I remember when the XD first came out (I bought one). (IIRC) Springfield had it listed in their spec-sheet as "single action" and was using "single action" in its advertising as a selling point. See link below. So, if the manufacture sells the gun as a SA then IDPA had no choice but to classify it as an ESP gun.

I notice NOW they are calling the trigger ULTRA SAFETY ASSURANCE (USA) SYSTEM. If Springfield would have used this name way back when they first came out it probably would have had a chance to shoot in SSP. But now its tagged due to a stupid marketing error on Springfield's behalf.

" Part of the problem with the XD is that in its first incarnation as the H-S 2000, it was described as a single action gun. "It was advertised in Europe as a single action," says Walt Rauch, a founding board member of LDPA, as he explains the organization's decision.

In the November/December 2000 issue of American Handgunner, Sebestyen Gorka wrote-up the H-S 2000. He said, "The trigger is single action only with a long first stage..."

As late as June 20, 2002, the perception continued in some quarters of the firearms press. That date's New Gun Week carried an article by Scott Smith titled "Springfield XD Pistol Works For Duty, Defense, Competition." Smith describes the XD as "Having ... a crisp single-action type trigger for accurate follow-up shots..."

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BT...i_92585765/pg_3

[COF]

I don't think the terms double or single action should apply to guns like the Glock, XD, M&P, ect.

I know the below explanation is going to be quite elementary, and you all know this stuff already, but I'm saying it to best describe my point of view.

Semi autos like the SIG, 1911s, Berettas, ect work off a sprung hammer being tensioned (whether with the trigger press or prior to) and released to exert its mass and velocity on a firing pin, to strike the primer. The disadvantage (often real, sometimes only perceived) of the double action is that the shooter must press through a stronger and more lengthy trigger than a single action gun. This isn't the case with striker fired guns.

Striker fired guns like the Glock and XD, regardless of how much the trigger moves the striker, act directly on the firing mechanism, and with little variation, have similar strengths of trigger and similar lengths of presses.

Neither Springfield nor the ATF runs IDPA. IDPA does. There is nothing stopping them from defining all these guns as striker fired guns, and allowing them in both SSP and ESP, regardless of how the manufacturer or the BATF defines them.

+1

[Loves2Shoot]

+2

I've stated that before and totally agree. The XD is being used as a stock service pistol all over the US and the rest of the world.

I've shot the IDPA classifier many time with my XD/XDM and Glocks and the times are the same also, so I don't get the 9 second handicap for the XD unless it is just that much better than a Glcok in the minds of the rulers of IDPA (Come on really it is laughable practically speaking isn't it?)

I could care less for me personally, I compete in whatever class the rulers put it in, because I only care about measuring myself against HOA and like to see where I can improve, but it doesn't make sense logically.

Edited September 19, 2008 by Loves2Shoot

[Duane Thomas]

but IDPA had decided it is MUCH better than a Glock and must be in ESP

Untrue. The powers-that-be in IDPA are going strictly by the guns' mechanic operating systems, i.e. trigger actions. "MUCH better than a Glock" has nothing to do with it.

[Loves2Shoot]

but IDPA had decided it is MUCH better than a Glock and must be in ESP

Untrue. The powers-that-be in IDPA are going strictly by the guns' mechanic operating systems, i.e. trigger actions. "MUCH better than a Glock" has nothing to do with it.

Sorry, that was a joke, thus the wink.

The mechanical fact is when you pull the trigger on an XD, it pulls the striker to the rear, then releases it to go forward, and you stated above that makes a Glock DA, so they must be using a different criteria for the XD.

[Duane Thomas]

Sorry, that was a joke, thus the wink.

Ah. Got it.

[Duane Thomas]

Where did you hear the XD trigger bar pulls the striker to the rear during trigger pulls? I found this description of the XD trigger system on gunsandammomag.com. Granted it's dated since it doesn't include the new thumb safety models, I would think this description of the basic trigger system operation would still hold true.

Springfield XD

The XD is correctly classified as a single-action design, meaning it is fully cocked by racking the slide. Most single-action autos have manual safeties, but the XD's Croatian designers eliminated the need for such safeties by adopting the Glock-type trigger safety as well as an internal firing-pin block. They also added a grip safety. The XD is a very safe design, but its single-action designation has confused some.

The XD is a true single-action internally but externally operates more like a double-action-only handgun. There are no manual safeties to disengage beforehand, and the trigger take-up has the feel of a light (very light) double-action pull before reaching a final single-action release. The XD operates like a Glock with a grip safety. As with the Glock, the trigger design does not fit any traditional classification, so Springfield coined its own terminology and dubbed it the USA (Ultra Safety Assurance) trigger safety.

The XD is a single-action design in that the trigger does not cock the striker. But the XD trigger does perform more than a single function, as do many other modern single-action designs. When the trigger is pressed, the trigger bar moves forward, and a lever in the frame pivots upward, disengaging the striker block. It's important to note that this disengagement occurs during the final stage of the trigger release. The striker-safety lever moves up in unison with the sear release. This means the long take-up of the trigger serves no mechanical function. The long pull does enhance safety, however, and performs much the same as a two-stage military-rifle trigger.

The safety lever on the trigger and the grip safety are simple and effective blocking devices. At rest, the nose of the trigger lever butts against a steel block in the frame, preventing the trigger from being depressed without first pressing the trigger safety. Likewise, the grip safety blocks the sear from moving downward and releasing the striker until the safety is depressed. The grip safety also prevents the slide from being racked.

Other safety features include a loaded-chamber indicator on top of the slide and a striker-status indicator on the rear of the slide. Again, these are simple safety features that are easy to check visually or by feel. The XD does not have an internal lock or a magazine disconnect.