a-44978 Posted July 12, 2003 Share Posted July 12, 2003 I'm new to this, 2years now, and i see somthing on occassion that i thought was just flashy. I have heard from older shooters that ,no it is dangerous. UNLOAD AND SHOW CLEAR They yank the slide back witch flips the live round into the air, then catch it in mid air with their weak hand One shooter i asked about this practice showed me the scars on his hand from a couple of incidents. Sometimes the out going round strikes the ejector with the primer just right and instant mini granade! I now stand way back when one of these guys is unloading and i swear they bounce back and fourth like a cheesey disco move or something Anybody else see this move before? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crazyaboutguns Posted July 12, 2003 Share Posted July 12, 2003 Yes, I have observed two burst rounds/injured hands. Probably the worst aspect of this flashy behavior is the shooters attention is momentarily away from the gun. Wandering muzzles, and on one occassion a dropped gun have been observed by me. Leave show boating at home. If a shooter wants to be known for his/her competence with firearms, including how to safely handle them, unload slowly, not theatrically. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
L9X25 Posted July 12, 2003 Share Posted July 12, 2003 When "flipping" first became popular RMs/MDs started announcing during the walkthrough (at the major matches) that it would be considered unsafe gun handling and a DQ could/would be issued. There was some grumbling but I don't remember anybody trying it at the matches. The main problem, as I see it, is that the shooter is subjecting himself, the RO and others to the danger of his careless act. I don't put myself at needels risk and I will thank others not to expose me to that. Leo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j1b Posted July 12, 2003 Share Posted July 12, 2003 Not in defense of the practice - because it is unsafe - keep in mind that the risk of the ejector ar anything else hitting the primer exists regardless of how you open the gun up. People have been injured holding their hand over the slide, pulling it back to capture the unused round, and having it detonate. I guess the message is to be careful while unloading the gun. There's no need for fancy gun work, hopefully you just got that out of the way on the stage you shot. JB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eric nielsen Posted July 13, 2003 Share Posted July 13, 2003 Jack is 100% right. Don't trap the round for any reason. Once I spent a couple hours (it was raining outside) just racking dummy rounds in & out of my match guns. Looked at how the cartridges rattle around & where is the primer & ejector while unloading & showing clear. Imitated all the ways I've seen ppl unload. The safest way, in my humble opinion: Remove mag & put in pouch or pocket. Twist gun & strong hand almost a 180 to the left. Gun is now upside-down. Grab back inch or 2 of the slide with your weak hand & retract the slide slowly. Loaded round falls on the ground real close to your left foot. Then release slide, return the gun so RO sees the ejection port. Retract slide again & stop a little short so RO can see the chamber & ramp easily. Follow commands for "gun clear, hammer down, holster." Likes: Live round usually falls out bullet first, with NO rattling or hesitating. Ejection port is pointed away from your face & the RO's face too. Round is usually waiting for you to pick it up, if you like, by your left foot. Keep in mind that round is worth about 10-15 cents. I'm right handed. Just tried it left-handed & it works nice too. Twist to the right before ejecting the live round - mirror image. Still points away from the RO's face & all. dvc - eric - a28026 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Larry Cazes Posted July 13, 2003 Share Posted July 13, 2003 Caspian28r, This is a great tip! I just tried this method and the round does indeed go where you aim it. I am forever trying to find the ejected round at the end of a stage. Thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ironman Posted July 13, 2003 Share Posted July 13, 2003 I agree with saspian28r and have used that method since the beginning of the year when a friend at a match shared it with me. My boys are dazzeled by the catch the bullet in the air act. Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spook Posted July 13, 2003 Share Posted July 13, 2003 That is a weird thing. I believe you guys when you say you've seen people get hurt using that method, but reigning 2-time world champion, Eric Grauffel uses that method all the time...He shoots approx. 100,000 rounds of ammo a year and I don't think he ever got hurt using it (or he would be one dumb SOB to keep using it ). Anyways, I would stay away from unloading a gun like that, because it's just flashy and has no value whatsoever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
texasag93 Posted July 13, 2003 Share Posted July 13, 2003 If you have seen a round go off after striking the ejector and what it can do you would never try that again. Friend of mine had it happen to him with a 40 round, picked brass out of his hand , chin and cheeks. Good thing for shooting glassed or he might not have his sight today. Drop that round on the ground. Nothing flashy, just safe gun handling. TXAG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PistolPete Posted July 13, 2003 Share Posted July 13, 2003 It's funny because quite a few of the people I compete with use this method. I too have been victom of it but felt it was unsafe so I no longer use that method. Funny thing is that I was invited to a different range on Friday night and the RO was showing a new shooter this move and I just shook my head with disapproval. Wish I could convice the guys I shoot with not to do this but they say it is safer because there is less of a chance of the round going off when they catch it than if they just let it fall to the floor. Pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carlos Posted July 13, 2003 Share Posted July 13, 2003 I'm w/ Eric on this - ejection port towrds ground & let it drop. Spook - I hear you, but remember the frontsite article on ejectorfire specifically mentions the .40 1911 platform; doesn't Grauffel shoot a CZ/Tanfoglio/EAA/IMI941/Baby desert eagle/P9 (call it what you want) platform in .38 stuper or one of the 9s?? I do not think its a fair comparison to the guns most of us shoot. Is Eric's gun immune to ejector fire? Beats me, I shoot 1911s and Glocks. I nearly blew up Phil Strader the 1st time I met him w/ my attempt to cause an ejector fire (search on my old post in "Match Screw Ups") and that was with a .45 1911 no less, not even the .40. I no longer see any reason to violently yank the slide to the rear at show clear. Just pull it back and let the round drop. Why take a chance on something that has happened to lots of guys & nearly happened to me? I don't see a point to the "flip". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
a-44978 Posted July 14, 2003 Author Share Posted July 14, 2003 WOW 45 also.I've heard that is was "only 40s" At anyrate if your gun is immune should'nt you try to set a good example for up and cummers? After 2 years i now have people that ask to squad with me (bizzare,i'm no superstar low b)and i feel like its my job to encourage and set a good example overall by the way i think these miss-haps are officially called gun related injuries and go into some kind of treehuggin,gunhattin database for the antigun cause ooops i slipped into a rant ,time for meds Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrianH Posted July 14, 2003 Share Posted July 14, 2003 First one I saw do this was TGO shooting his P9....saw Chris Hori do it too around the same time, P9 also. The reason I think was that there wasn't a really good way to unload a scoped P9/Witness without dumping the round on the ground. The slide is really skinny, and the scope mount is usually in the way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ErikW Posted July 14, 2003 Share Posted July 14, 2003 Hello, McFly?! Would someone care to tell me exactly what's unsafe about unloading by racking the slide quickly? Is your problem with the slide rack speed, the skyward ejection, or the muzzle? I'll say this: cycling the slide slowly is much more unsafe as far as ejector fire. The gun is designed to eject cases with the slide moving back quickly. Have you ever seen the slow-rack unloaders have to jiggle the round out as its up against the ejector? All the time. Have you ever seen this happen to the flippers? Nope, the round gets kicked out. FWIW, I turn the gun over so the port is down and to the right. However, I found myself flipping one or two out of the gun this weekend for some reason. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Thomas Posted July 14, 2003 Share Posted July 14, 2003 That is a weird thing. I believe you guys when you say you've seen people get hurt using that method, but reigning 2-time world champion, Eric Grauffel uses that method all the time...He shoots approx. 100,000 rounds of ammo a year and I don't think he ever got hurt using it (or he would be one dumb SOB to keep using it ). Todd Jarrett does the same thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew_Mink Posted July 14, 2003 Share Posted July 14, 2003 After seeing 3 .40's explode while doing this method coming out of 1911/2011 style guns, I think I'll pass. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crazyaboutguns Posted July 14, 2003 Share Posted July 14, 2003 Hello, McFly?! Would someone care to tell me exactly what's unsafe about unloading by racking the slide quickly? Is your problem with the slide rack speed, the skyward ejection, or the muzzle?I'll say this: cycling the slide slowly is much more unsafe as far as ejector fire. The gun is designed to eject cases with the slide moving back quickly. Have you ever seen the slow-rack unloaders have to jiggle the round out as its up against the ejector? All the time. Have you ever seen this happen to the flippers? Nope, the round gets kicked out. FWIW, I turn the gun over so the port is down and to the right. However, I found myself flipping one or two out of the gun this weekend for some reason. Eric: Previous posts have addressed the safety hazard of manually racking a slide quickly, with a LIVE round in the chamber. The 1911 was designed to eject FIRED cases with slide moving quickly, not live rounds. As myself and others have personally witnessed, and stated in our postings, ignition of live rounds during unloading does occur. Extended ejector equipped guns are particularly susceptible. Problems with flipping and attempting to catch the round pertain to diversion of attention of the shooter from the gun, to the round in mid-air. Some people can do this without a problem, most of the time. It is that minority of occassions when a shooter chases his round in mid-air that presents a problem. A DQ after the fact is not a satisfactory rationalization for engaging in a unloading procedure that adds nothing to the sport, and presents a potential, and totally avoidable hazard to the shooter, and every other person on the range. With respect to the tenor of your post, and other posts in which you have expressed disagreement with other posters, the presence of sarcasm in place of sound reasoning diminishes the weight given to your positions, and is rude and abusive to others participating in this forum. Please consider this in the future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ErikW Posted July 14, 2003 Share Posted July 14, 2003 Got it on the muzzle thing. Specifically, which post above detailed why racking the slide quickly is more likely to ejector-fire the chambered round than racking the slide slowly? Sound reasoning seems good to me; I've yet to see it applied to this situation. I've seen an ejector fire, too, from a slowly-racked gun. I suspect it, like the other anecdotes, was more of a gunsmithing issue than a slide speed issue. I'm going to go out on a limb here and say the objections to flip-and-catch have more to do with codgerism than with safety. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wildman Posted July 14, 2003 Share Posted July 14, 2003 That's a pretty thin limb. Tell you what, if you want to flip and grab, wear a little sign on the back that says "Flipper". As RO, I'll stand behind you until the gun is clear, then lean forward to check the chamber. That way, I can be behind you and shielded if the thing goes off. Otherwise, this type of action puts two people at risk. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crazyaboutguns Posted July 14, 2003 Share Posted July 14, 2003 That's a pretty thin limb. Tell you what, if you want to flip and grab, wear a little sign on the back that says "Flipper". As RO, I'll stand behind you until the gun is clear, then lean forward to check the chamber. That way, I can be behind you and shielded if the thing goes off. Otherwise, this type of action puts two people at risk. That about sums it up. Thank you, Wildman. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
L9X25 Posted July 14, 2003 Share Posted July 14, 2003 I believe that a "slow rack" can detonate a primer but the chances of it happening are far less than "fast racked" slide. The more energy there is available the better the chances of a detonation. I witnessed a primer detonation from someone dropping a handfull of loaded rounds into a shooting bag (less than a 6" fall) after shooting his last stage. We will never know what caused the probelm, exactly, but it was likely a "soft" primer. Leo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
texasag93 Posted July 14, 2003 Share Posted July 14, 2003 Eric, the gun's slide ejects shells very quickly yes, but that is a spent primer in the case so banging it on the ejector wouldn't matter. I have heard of two cases of this. One with a .45 and one with a .40. Both times they were flipping the round to catch it. I won't change dumping one on the ground until I hear of one detinating that way. If so many people are hearing of or seeing this happen why isn't it considered unsafe gun handling? As an RO when a shooter does this I still make them open the slide and show clear. Have had them tell me "you saw the round come out." Yes, but I still haven't seen an empty chamber. TXAG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Singlestack Posted July 14, 2003 Share Posted July 14, 2003 I'm going to lock this thread in the interest of preserving the tone of this forum. This is going nowhere real fast. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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