Breaking the law shooting IDPA?

[Aristotle]

I just read an interesting discussion on this subject on another forum and would like to see what the good folks of Benos think.

There was a question brought up about the legality of carrying "concealed" per IDPA rules, during the act of competing in an IDPA match. Does it break state law if someone that does not have a CCW, competes in IDPA? I for one have always had one, so I'm not worried. Per my state law, the only other time carrying is allowed with OUT a CCW permit is when you are "lawfully" engaged in camping, fishing or hiking.

Some of the posters on the original topic have stated, because of this, they do not require their shooters to shoot from concealment. Which, is a big rule in IDPA. This changes the playing field a bit. Also explains why I sometimes see shooters in IDPA videos not wearing concealment.

How much does this affect other area's of the country that do require concealment? Will IDPA mandate that all members have a valid CCW?

[Ted Murphy]

FWIW, Pa has no Concealed Carry Permit. They have a license to carry firearms. Since a gun range is a legal place to have your gun weather or not you have a permit, it isn't an issue here.

No ideas about other states, particularly the ones with horrific gun laws.

Ted

[racerba]

The range is a "private property" and you are allowed. Similar to carrying concealed in your house - unless you live in DC - according to the mayor .

Similar to discharging a firearms within city limits. If there is a range within city limits, are you breaking the law? Of course not. You are engaging in a lawful activity on property zoned for such activity.

Of course, if you have a hi-capacity magazines within states that prohibits it like NJ and CA, then you are subject to those laws.

[Aristotle]

Similar to discharging a firearms within city limits. If there is a range within city limits, are you breaking the law? Of course not. You are engaging in a lawful activity on property zoned for such activity.

I did not know that, you learn something new every day, for those of us that have a lot to learn, sometimes two things a day!

[HighVelocity]

I've also been following the thread on the other forum mentioned by the OP. I want to know if the Colorado club mentioned in that thread shot the postal match without concealment.

[Graham Smith]

You are engaging in a lawful activity on property zoned for such activity.

And this is where it gets tricky. If you are on private property, you can carry guns if you want, but shooting them is a different story. I have no idea what kind of zoning you need to obtained to set up a range (indoor or out), but it's fairly strict or everyone would be able to setup a range in their back yard or basement (and wouldn't the neighbors love that?).

Edited August 7, 2008 by Graham Smith

[Genghis]

I'm an attorney in Texas. The law here generally prohibits people from "carrying" handguns, but there has always been an exception for hunting, fishing, or conducting another sporting activity with a weapon commonly used in such activity, or traveling directly between such activity and his residence. It doesn't matter if the gun is concealed or not, except that CHL holders who are carrying under authority of the license have to keep the gun concealed. So I don't believe IDPA shooters in Texas without CHL's are breaking the law by driving to the match, shooting in it, or concealing the gun during the match.

Over the last few years the Legislature has changed things, so now law-abiding citizens with guns in their privately-owned vehicles are considered to be "traveling" and therefore allowed to carry handguns, as long as the gun is not in plain sight. I'd guess that if you search every vehicle in the average parking lot in Texas, probably more than half of them would have guns. So this law made it legal to do what about half of us do. Only about 1 1/2% of Texans have CHL's, so the new traveling law protects a whole lot more people than the CHL law.

This is not legal advice.

[Aristotle]

I want to know if the Colorado club mentioned in that thread shot the postal match without concealment.

That sure would change the perspective a bit. Doesn't seem like it would be very equal playing field.

[Kingman]

In MD, you have to have a permit to carry concealed unless you have written consent by the land owner or work for that person and they want you armed under certain circumstances. Blah blah blah will skip that

technically speaking unless you are the land owner or hold a lease unless you have consent to carry on that private property you ARE violating the law.

[el pres]

But you could also say that the shooters "with" CCW's are breaking the law when they

bring the gun out to shoot !!! . I think private property laws, sporting activity laws, and

shooting range rules, take care of this technicallity !

Edited August 7, 2008 by DIRTY CHAMBER

[racerba]

technically speaking unless you are the land owner or hold a lease unless you have consent to carry on that private property you ARE violating the law.

If you are shooting a match on that property, you would hope you have the land owner's consent.

[Jeff686]

FWIW, Pa has no Concealed Carry Permit. They have a license to carry firearms. Since a gun range is a legal place to have your gun weather or not you have a permit, it isn't an issue here.

No ideas about other states, particularly the ones with horrific gun laws.

Ted

Ted, is a difference between a Concealed Carry Permit and a License To Carry Firearms (LTCF)? IF so, what?

From what I remembered (and just checked up on), PA is a shall issue state and a LTCF allows you to carry concealed. No license is required for open carry (by the state, local laws may differ).

Just a curious PA X-Pat.

[RobMoore]

I believe that written consent is the form that most if not all clubs make new shooters sign.

[Joe4d]

Your asking a specific legal question with a general area. People are answering from all over the country, all over the country has different laws. IDPA used to mention (and still may I didnt notice it in the most recent sugestion book if concealment violates local law matches may be shot without concealment.) Hawaii prohibited concealed carry even for IDPA matches so they were shot without concealment. The range was county owned so that may have had something to do with it. But like I said every jurisdiction will have different laws.

[PJONES5]

I am glad I live in Fl,we just go to the matches and have a good time shooting.

pat

[Aristotle]

Cool beans, I'm from Washington, and we have a good time up here too!

It's a valid point, and probably not one a lot of people ponder. I wasn't the one that raised the issue, I'm happy how the rules are now. I just thought it was a valid point, and one that had to have been asked and answered before already, so that is why I am asking the vast wisdom of this board. that is all.

[hawk]

Just FWIW I've shot a few sanctioned matches in other states where it was assumed that not everyone had a CCW permit so the concealment issue wasn't required even though the range was on private property.

[Duane Thomas]

That sure would change the perspective a bit. Doesn't seem like it would be very equal playing field.

It doesn't make a huge difference, but it does make a difference. Several years ago I did a test where I took an electronic timer and measured my draw, with and without concealment. Same holster, same gun, the only difference was the pressence, or lack thereof, of my vest. I found the average difference in draw time was .08 second. Now, speaking as someone who once lost an IDPA match by .02 second - that's right, I said two/one-HUNDREDTHS of a second - I don't want to be giving up eight/hundredths every draw. We could argue how important that is, in the overall scheme of things, for most people.

[steel1212]

That sure would change the perspective a bit. Doesn't seem like it would be very equal playing field.

It doesn't make a huge difference, but it does make a difference. Several years ago I did a test where I took an electronic timer and measured my draw, with and without concealment. Same holster, same gun, the only difference was the pressence, or lack thereof, of my vest. I found the average difference in draw time was .08 second. Now, speaking as someone who once lost an IDPA match by .02 second - that's right, I said two/one-HUNDREDTHS of a second - I don't want to be giving up eight/hundredths every draw. We could argue how important that is, in the overall scheme of things, for most people.

Damn...I've got some practicing to do then! My draws from concealment are 1.2-1.3 with out I'm .9-1.0.

[Tom Freeman]

I want to know if the Colorado club mentioned in that thread shot the postal match without concealment.

Indeed, the Postal Match participants shot from concealment.

[Ted Murphy]

Ted, is a difference between a Concealed Carry Permit and a License To Carry Firearms (LTCF)? IF so, what?

From what I remembered (and just checked up on), PA is a shall issue state and a LTCF allows you to carry concealed. No license is required for open carry (by the state, local laws may differ).

Just a curious PA X-Pat.

NOT LEGAL ADVICE

FWIW, my understanding from the open carry advocates is in Pa the license is to carry the gun, open or concealed.

Many people (many of them attys) have stood up to say that the license does not stipulate concealed. Some of these people regularly open carry as they believe (and so far the law has held for them, even when the PD were alerted) that doing so is legal as they have the license. I do not do that myself, (don't like drawing attention like that) but they do. My friend Frank is one such person and has open carried at the airport and various other places like train stations. I think he gets away with it more cause he wears 5.11's and IMHO the sheeple think he's a cop, but he maintains a different reason for his succes. Again, I would not want to do it.

I only know a little bit about what they say and do, if you google "Pa open carry" you will likely learn more as there is a forum open to this.

pafoa.org is one such place with an open carry forum. Like I said, I don't Open carry (or OC), because there be dragons there.

Ted

[racerba]

My friend Frank is one such person and has open carried at the airport and various other places like train stations. I think he gets away with it more cause he wears 5.11's and IMHO the sheeple think he's a cop, but he maintains a different reason for his succes.

I would tell your friend to be careful. PA does have an open carry law, except for class 1 cities. Phila is class 1 cities.

http://www.pafoa.org/law/carrying-firearms/open-carry

Editted to remove Pittsburgh and add link.

Edited August 20, 2008 by racerba

[Ted Murphy]

I would tell your friend to be careful. PA does have an open carry law, except for class 1 cities. Phila and Pittsburgh are class 1 cities.

I have told him to be careful, but he seems to think he knows what he is doing. IMO, just because you think you CAN do something, doesn't mean you SHOULD.

Ted