Palm Pilot scoring

[Resjudicata]

I got to see the Palm Pilot scoring system for the first time at Area 3 yesterday. I have to say that the system doesn't look very good. Also, I don't think the RO's are getting the training they need ahead of time to be ready to use these on match day. Almost every stage we shot the RO's said something to the effect of "we aren't sure we know how to use these so bear with us."

Match organizers who want to look at this need to keep in mind that not everyone is computer savvy and of those who are, not all of them are Palm savvy. There is going to be a steep learning curve for most ROs to go through. A simple 30 minute or 1 hour class probably isn't going to work. In fact, if Palm Pilot scoring is used then there really needs to be a certification process for ROs before this scoring system can be used in a match. ALL the ROs should not only be competent but should be ADEPT at the use of the system. If there is any question then it shouldn't be used.

Yes, I got screwed on a stage because the RO didn't know how to use the Palm Pilot very well. Fortunately, it happened in a match that I wasn't shooting well in anyway. However, it could and probably did happen to others who were shooting well.

In short, Palm scoring needs to go away until a proper certification process has been decided upon by USPSA.

Chris

[9x21]

Sounds like a training issue.

I don't claim to know how it works, but they use it here in the Northeast pretty effectively.

Harvard MA uses it for local matches & the scores are up before I get home.

They read the final hits & time to the shooter before they end the stage.

In twenty years I have had plenty of "mistakes" made on my scores the old fashion way.

Give ot another chance

[Chris Keen]

All I know is they better get it right in the next 6 weeks when they use it at THIS YEARS NATIONALS!!!

[cmzneb]

It is simply a familiarization issue. Once you have used them several times it is very easy to use, and it is good to get stats quickly. I can only speak for the stage I'm working but we have had zero issues with the palm, and our stage has been flowing quite nicely.

Now I shouldn't have said that because today is going to be the heavist load of shooters

Eastern Nebraska is my home club, so I am fairly familiar with using the Palm scoring.

[tpcdvc]

It is simply a familiarization issue. Once you have used them several times it is very easy to use, and it is good to get stats quickly. I can only speak for the stage I'm working but we have had zero issues with the palm, and our stage has been flowing quite nicely.

Now I shouldn't have said that because today is going to be the heavist load of shooters

Eastern Nebraska is my home club, so I am fairly familiar with using the Palm scoring.

+1

Our club has been using nothing but the palm system for a little over a year and it is awesome. Very easy to learn and rock solid.

Tim

Edited August 2, 2008 by tpcdvc

[maineshootah]

When used correctly, it is a fast and efficient scoring system, the shooter knows his/her hit factor walking off the stage.

Results are updated very quickly during the match.

However, it does provide some basic training to run the system. Some of us up here have used them at Harvard for several matches now and love them, even the fellas who are self proclaimed computer dysfunctional, are happy using the palms.

I know for Nationals that there will be a few days of training on the system. I am sure Rob will jump in here and confirm it.

[lugnut]

The only issues I have are it would be nice to know what your actual hits looked like per target and not just the raw time and hit factor- scoring goes so fast on long stages. After the stage you don't want to be bothering the score keepers who are getting ready for the next shooter. (Yeah... as you guessed.... I'm not that good calling my shots just yet. LOL) That being said I don't ever recall questioning my results and getting the results posted almost immediately is a great benefit.

[Ben Stoeger]

I only saw ROs have a couple minor problems with it. It seemed to work well for the most part.

[Resjudicata]

Without having used the system myself I would agree that it must be a training issue. The system may unnecessarily difficult to use but I don't know that first hand. However, even a good system requires the proper training. I just didn't get the impression that people were trained enough to use it. Maybe I'm wrong and the heat was just getting to everyone. I know it was getting to me.

Chris

[Rob Boudrie]

Yes, I got screwed on a stage because the RO didn't know how to use the Palm Pilot very well.

I'd be interested in hearing details, as well as what transpired when you told the range officer "I will not sign that scoresheet since it does not accurately reflect my performance on the stage".

[rgkeller]

The only issues I have are it would be nice to know what your actual hits looked like per target and not just the raw time and hit factor- scoring goes so fast on long stages. After the stage you don't want to be bothering the score keepers who are getting ready for the next shooter. (Yeah... as you guessed.... I'm not that good calling my shots just yet. LOL) That being said I don't ever recall questioning my results and getting the results posted almost immediately is a great benefit.

The shooter does not get to see the total A,B,C,D,M,NS and Procedurals before attesting?

How does the shooter attest his score on a stage?

NEVER MIND.

Edited August 2, 2008 by rgkeller

[George Jones]

Having only seen it in use (as a shooter) a couple of times, I'm looking forward to using it first-hand on a stage at the Nationals.

Although I fully appreciate the benefits of "instant" scoring, etc, I admit to not being comfortable with it as a shooter. The issues that have concerned me in the past (perhaps some have been updated since) are:

1. The difficulties of seeing the Palm screen clearly when asked to confirm the total entries (glare, old eyes, etc).

2. The difficulty of quickly scanning and actually seeing your individual target scores in the usual format. By that I mean that the Palm displays "0" in what you normally see as a blank block on a paper scoresheet. Those zeros cause all the blocks to have an entry, making it difficult to find the actual individual hits on each target. That makes it hard to "verify" those entries under the pressure of time (got to run the next shooter). If the "0" could be changed to simple blank entry, I believe shooters would be more comfortable with the process.

Offering this in an effort to see it improve.

Edited August 2, 2008 by George Jones

[Rob Boudrie]

Offering this in an effort to see it improve.

Ok George, you're on. See below .

The difficulties of seeing the Palm screen clearly when asked to confirm the total entries (glare, old eyes, etc).

This one does indeed have it's limitations, particularly since we are using older Palms. All I can offer here is to encourage the ROs to make sure the shooters have a chance to see and verify the scores. As with paper, you can see individuals scores before signing your sheet but once it's signed, it's too late to claim "you fergut a hit". There are also some excellent implantable lenses for older eyes, but there isn't enough lead time before the nationals for installation and healing - besides, you've got another decade or so before you're at the age when those are generally needed.

Those zeros cause all the blocks to have an entry, making it difficult to find the actual individual hits on each target.

This is what George is referring to (and yes, the screen does scoll when a stage has more than 7 targets):

I have emailed the developer down under asking him if he could prepare a new version that displays an "_" instead of the "0" on these lines. With a bit of luck, I'll hav ethis version in hand before the Harvard Sportsmen's match on August 10th, so we can run it through its paces before the nationals.

[George Jones]

I have emailed the developer down under asking him if he could prepare a new version that displays an "_" instead of the "0" on these lines. With a bit of luck, I'll hav ethis version in hand before the Harvard Sportsmen's match on August 10th, so we can run it through its paces before the nationals.

Woo Hoo!

[maineshootah]

I have emailed the developer down under asking him if he could prepare a new version that displays an "_" instead of the "0" on these lines. With a bit of luck, I'll hav ethis version in hand before the Harvard Sportsmen's match on August 10th, so we can run it through its paces before the nationals.

Woo Hoo!

NICE!

[shooterbenedetto]

How will you incorporate this in the club match? does each stage have to have one of these? then combine all stages together?

[Nik Habicht]

How will you incorporate this in the club match? does each stage have to have one of these? then combine all stages together?

IIRC there's a master palm to score the match, as well as individual stage palm pilots. The stage pal pilots beam their data wirelessly to the master, which is able to load it into EZWinscore.....

There's a little more to it than that, including all kinds of backup procedures to ensure accuracy --- but Rob could speak to that better. Actually Rob probably has already --- this isn't the first thread on palm scoring...

[Resjudicata]

Yes, I got screwed on a stage because the RO didn't know how to use the Palm Pilot very well.

I'd be interested in hearing details, as well as what transpired when you told the range officer "I will not sign that scoresheet since it does not accurately reflect my performance on the stage".

Well, apparently the RO scored me under another person's name and didn't have a way to change that score to my name. Then rather than stopping the CRO and getting it taken care of continued on to score other shooters and tried to enter my score by memory. Only there were 16 hits scored instead of 24. So, the end result was a reshoot. There was no other way to solve the problem. However, I didn't want a reshoot. I was perfectly happy with my first run.

I have seen this same issue come up when using paper score sheets and it was handled easily by re-entering the info in the correct score sheet and then putting a new sticker on a sheet for the person who received the score but didn't shoot. Thus, no reshoot.

Chris

[cmzneb]

I can't speak for every match, but I can tell you every stage at Area 3 we entered the scores into the Palm, then the scorekeeper wrote out a small receipt showing all A-B-C-D-M-PR-NS and the total time, and this is what is signed, and a copy given to the shooter.

[Anon]

I got to see the Palm Pilot .....

.... individual stage palm pilots...

I have nothing to add about the software. I'm just here to be nit-picky about the hardware.

Palm hasn't made a PalmPilot in ten years. Unless the Palms you're using are that old, they are not "Pilots".

(They dropped the "Pilot" name after being sued).

[mactiger]

We plan to have a fairly comprehensive training session prior to Nationals, and in fact, some of the Nationals RO's, as well as one of the RM's, Mr. Fixit, and the Match Director, are all at Area 3 right now, getting first hand information on the system. I believe we'll be in good shape when the Nationals starts. I'd be there myself, but alas, my employer demands my presence.

If you do have an issue at Nationals, you should call for the RM/Palm support immediately, and not allow the stage staff to proceed until the issue is resolved--that's probably going to be the only way to avoid unnecessary reshoots. We will be sure to emphasize that point during the staff training sessions.

You will receive a paper summary copy of your scores. If the system gets upgraded to remove the zeroes, that will be a plus.

Troy

[Rob Boudrie]

Well, apparently the RO scored me under another person's name and didn't have a way to change that score to my name. Then rather than stopping the CRO and getting it taken care of continued on to score other shooters and tried to enter my score by memory. Only there were 16 hits scored instead of 24. So, the end result was a reshoot. There was no other way to solve the problem. However, I didn't want a reshoot. I was perfectly happy with my first run.

Thanks for the explanation. I will make sure that the manner in which this particular issue is to be handled is covered in RO training at the nationals.

#1: We will have 2 stats people on duty throughout the nationals with golfcarts to roll in to the rescue in cases like this. This is easily corrected in the Palm, but beyond the scope of "basic RO training" that all ROs using the system can expect to have.

#2: Absent the ability to have an on-site stats person summoned to your presence to fix it in the Palm, the appropriate action would be for the RO to write the hit totals down on your summary sheet and report the incident to stats so they can enter it into EzWinScore manually.

If you do have an issue at Nationals, you should call for the RM/Palm support immediately

No matter what the RO's do to fix any problem you have, make sure you get an RO-initialed paper stub sheet reflecting a score you feel is accurate. In the USPSA version of paper-scissors-rocks, a paper stub score (competitors get a carbonless copy, RO's get the original) trumps an electronically loaded score. Results stations at the vendor tent will be updated several times a day, and will include a "summary by competitor or member number" page to make it easy to check your scores. If you're concerned about lines, bring a wireless web browsing device (it will be a local web server, not internet access).

[Resjudicata]

Good to know that the folks will be well trained on this system for the Nats. I won't be there but I'm sure it will make the shooters and the ROs feel better going into the biggest match of the year.

Chris

[Peter Cunningham]

Greetings all from the land down under.

Due to a life threatening issue last year, I have kept a low profile and away from the nit picking that always surrounds 'new' things.

The point is this - Rob has made the suggestion that the "0" be replaced by "_" and I agree TOTALLY.

It is being changed now.

That's what happens when we cooperate constructively - we all benefit.

I notice a problem described at the head of this thread. There would have been no problem had the RO practised beforehand. That is not always possible but in short time if everybody cooperated, familiarity would reign and problems disappear.

The solution in that case is simple for a nervous and stressed RO - write down the scores and time on paper, then tap in 1000 seconds and the score on the wrong shooter will be zero'd. Then find the right shooter and tap in the scores from paper. Problem fixed in about 30 seconds.

I have taken great trouble to create a comprehensive PDF and a Powerpoint tutorial that anybody can peruse and learn, even without a palm.

I should add that an RO has the following options to find shooters:

a) Automated shooting order - where a rotating shooting order is automatic and progressive. (no more arguments)

Find shooters by their number. Just ask for his number - tap that in and presto 'he' appears.

c) Find shooters by name (ditto)

d) Find shooters manually.

The RO is clearly advised and asked to confirm PRIOR to starting the shooter, of the shooter's name and his number.

I also agree that familiarisation is necessary before using Palms, but in life what does not require familiarisation in order to be effective?

Simply put - I can teach effective basic use in 20 minutes or less to local Papua New Guineans who have nil exposure to computers and haven't even seen a palm before.

I think you blokes have 'just a slight' advantage over those people. The key to it all is the willingness to adopt the new - but that's life anyway!

Simple efforts are being taken to familiarise RO's well before the match, and a refresher at the match. I understand that a good number of ROs are already proficient.

I know this will revolutionise our dynamic sport and increase our membership by making our scoring dynamic and 'spectator friendly', and ultimately be a thorn in the side of our anti gun antagonists.

I am trying to make my way over to your Nats to help out at the match, and have a powerful offer to put to USPSA and IPSC to make this available to everybody cheaply and bring an end to licensing etc.

BE HAPPY

Peter Cunningham

ass@acenet.com.au ("ass"=Automated Scoring Systems)

[Hoofy]

If the system gets upgraded to remove the zeroes, that will be a plus.

With current pricing, that should only cost $50 per copy.