Over running cover

[Jimlakeside]

I participated in the Texas State Championship match this last Saturday. I watched some really fast shooters shoot and this is what I observed about how they used cover. When running down a hall, for example, they would sprint to the end of the cover, run past it, quickly stop and back up before engaging targets. In contrast I would sprint to cover and slow way down before getting to the edge of the hallway, stop, and then look around the cover for targets. I can see where running past cover, stopping and backing up would be faster, but it seems to violate the spirit of the game if not the rules. No one was called for exposing a large portion of their bodies to the bad guys for a short period of time before they got back behind cover.

Any thoughts about this observation. If it is allowed by the rules, then it makes more sense to me to slightly run pass cover, quickly stop, and back-up since this is faster.

[Aristotle]

I participated in the Texas State Championship match this last Saturday. I watched some really fast shooters shoot and this is what I observed about how they used cover. When running down a hall, for example, they would sprint to the end of the cover, run past it, quickly stop and back up before engaging targets. In contrast I would sprint to cover and slow way down before getting to the edge of the hallway, stop, and then look around the cover for targets. I can see where running past cover, stopping and backing up would be faster, but it seems to violate the spirit of the game if not the rules. No one was called for exposing a large portion of their bodies to the bad guys for a short period of time before they got back behind cover.

Any thoughts about this observation. If it is allowed by the rules, then it makes more sense to me to slightly run pass cover, quickly stop, and back-up since this is faster.

This can easily slip into the debate of Game or not to game, especially in IDPA. And it's perception is relative to how the shooter portrays the "game". I'll take a wild guess and say those guys are probably also USPSA shooters. I do this myself, get a momentary brain fart and overshoot the "pie", but I don't think it's necessaryily the fastest way all the time.

As for what's legal and what is not, the rules only state that you must be behind cover while engaging the target and breaking a shot. Same reason they wouldn't get called for it as long as you don't take a shot and readjust to get behind cover properly.

[Gregg K]

If it is allowed by the rules, then it makes more sense to me to slightly run pass cover, quickly stop, and back-up since this is faster.

Faster? I would be more than happy to watch my competition overrun their shooting position and have to back up. If they had planned their advance properly they could have been shooting when they were screwing around and backing up to get into position.

[JD45]

This is one of the downfalls of the IDPA cover rule. I've discussed this with lots of other shooters and they see the same thing. Even though the SO is trying to enforce the rule and call procedurals if a shooter fails to use cover, they can't always see it. When a really fast shooter(like a USPSA GM) shoots a field stage, the SO can barely keep up. A bunch of us watched some great shooters move down a hallway at a state match and never use the 50% cover rule. They were constantly moving. I couldn't have called it either.

As long as you slice the pie in the correct order, it is possible to shoot so fast that the SO couldn't yell "cover" if he tried.

[Duane Thomas]

Actually, according to the rules, the SO does not have to have the time to yell cover during the stage to be able to assess the penalty after the stage is over. The cover call during the stage is a courtesy, not a requirement to assess a penalty.

I'm with Gregg. Neither the super-slow, super-sneaky ninja stealth approach nor overrunning cover is the most efficient way to move into cover/shooting position in IDPA. The guy who understands how to move smoothly into position ready to fire is going to clean both their clocks.

[salilus]

Actually, according to the rules, the SO does not have to have the time to yell cover during the stage to be able to assess the penalty after the stage is over. The cover call during the stage is a courtesy, not a requirement to assess a penalty.

I'm with Gregg. Neither the super-slow, super-sneaky ninja stealth approach nor overrunning cover is the most efficient way to move into cover/shooting position in IDPA. The guy who understands how to move smoothly into position ready to fire is going to clean both their clocks.

Exactly. With the big matches like Texas State where I swear the SO's are working on commision from cover calls, you really had to watch yourself. In the walkthrough, I always make a mental note of where my left\right foot needs to be to get good cover. When running to that cover position I stare at where that foot needs to be to get into cover properly. Once I get that foot headed there I start getting a sight picture before I have stopped and am ready to shoot as soon as the target becomes avail. I find this to be the fastest way to do it.

[Joe4d]

For the love of God would IDPA please just draw a frikking line on the dang ground and get all this judgement calling Bob got a penalty but Bill didnt nonsense out of the game.

[politegunner]

This is why I really like two SOs working the COF. One can watch the muzzle, finger, etc and the other (scorekeeper) and be looking for things like cover. But yeah, maybe drawing a line might be a good idea.

[GmanCdp]

some shooters at this match were alot faster then the SO's..and alot of them were doing the one legged target transition at the end of a COF,leaning way out while shooting...i just hate them skinny 6ft 5" guys without a ballast around their waist,unlike me when i get to the end i always have the fluid moition ripple wave effect

[steel1212]

Actually, according to the rules, the SO does not have to have the time to yell cover during the stage to be able to assess the penalty after the stage is over. The cover call during the stage is a courtesy, not a requirement to assess a penalty.

I'm with Gregg. Neither the super-slow, super-sneaky ninja stealth approach nor overrunning cover is the most efficient way to move into cover/shooting position in IDPA. The guy who understands how to move smoothly into position ready to fire is going to clean both their clocks.

I had to argue with a SO one day about this. We had setup a go right hallway with barrels that turned back into a go left halway with barrels. There was targets where you turned both times very close like 5-7 yards or so. I sliced the pie so fast on them that when I got done the SO said I had several procedurals for cover. I asked him why and he said that there was no way I could have used cover. My reply was once a target is nutralized why do I have to still use cover for that target. I just got a funny look and got them dropped.

But anyway to the original question, unless your shooting a stage that didn't allow for a walk through setting up before you get to a shooting position is so much faster than over running and going backwards.

[RickB]

For the love of God would IDPA please just draw a frikking line on the dang ground and get all this judgement calling Bob got a penalty but Bill didnt nonsense out of the game.

Your outrage is admirable, but how would a line on the ground help matters?

[Duane Thomas]

Exactly. With the big matches like Texas State where I swear the SO's are working on commision from cover calls, you really had to watch yourself. In the walkthrough, I always make a mental note of where my left\right foot needs to be to get good cover. When running to that cover position I stare at where that foot needs to be to get into cover properly. Once I get that foot headed there I start getting a sight picture before I have stopped and am ready to shoot as soon as the target becomes avail. I find this to be the fastest way to do it.

Well, you have obviously figured out several things that most people never do. However, don't let this information get too widely disseminated or people will begin to figure out how we beat them.

(And yes, that was my way of saying that you should all be paying a lot of attention to what this guy just said.)

[RickB]

I had to argue with a SO one day about this. We had setup a go right hallway with barrels that turned back into a go left halway with barrels. There was targets where you turned both times very close like 5-7 yards or so. I sliced the pie so fast on them that when I got done the SO said I had several procedurals for cover. I asked him why and he said that there was no way I could have used cover. My reply was once a target is nutralized why do I have to still use cover for that target. I just got a funny look and got them dropped.

No matter how many times you failed to use cover, only one penalty should be assessed; PE or FTDR.

Neutralization is a matter of scoring, not of engagement. You can't fire one round at everything, and then charge the targets; you have to use cover any time you are engaging.

Edited June 12, 2008 by RickB

[steel1212]

I had to argue with a SO one day about this. We had setup a go right hallway with barrels that turned back into a go left halway with barrels. There was targets where you turned both times very close like 5-7 yards or so. I sliced the pie so fast on them that when I got done the SO said I had several procedurals for cover. I asked him why and he said that there was no way I could have used cover. My reply was once a target is nutralized why do I have to still use cover for that target. I just got a funny look and got them dropped.

No matter how many times you failed to use cover, only one penalty should be assessed; PE or FTDR.

Neutralization is a matter of scoring, not of engagement. You can't fire one round at everything, and then charge the targets; you have to use cover any time you are engaging.

Sorry I ment to say as I engaged them. I engaged them so fast that I never stopped moving still using cover.

[RickB]

I was really addressing the "several procedurals for cover"; you should get one procedural for each type of infraction, regardless of how many instances. If there were three positions of cover on a scenario CoF, and you failed to use cover on all of them, it would still be just one procedural, or one FTDR.

[Bones]

Has any one discovered that the rule applies to engaging targets?

Craig

[Duane Thomas]

I'm not quite sure I understand the question. (?)

[Bones]

I'm not quite sure I understand the question. (?)

There is no stated penalty for simply exposing yourself to a target.

The "use of cover" rules apply to shooting and reloading. Period.

Running past or simply exposing oneself to a target is not, and has never been, in and of itself, a penalty. Shooting at it while you do either of those two things is.

The penalty that was reffered to applies to the active engagement of threat targets. Technically, the shooter could run up to the threat and draw a smiley face on it before he returned to cover to engage it without incurring a penalty.

Read the initial post. The shooters ran past cover, then returned to it before engaging - No penalty.

Covering the same ground and changing directions twice is inefficient, but it is compliant with the rules.

Craig

Edited June 13, 2008 by Bones

[Aristotle]

I'm not quite sure I understand the question. (?)

There is no stated penalty for simply exposing yourself to a target.

The "use of cover" rules apply to shooting and reloading. Period.

Running past or simply exposing oneself to a target is not, and has never been, in and of itself, a penalty. Shooting at it while you do either of those two things is.

The penalty that was reffered to applies to the active engagement of threat targets. Technically, the shooter could run up to the threat and draw a smiley face on it before he returned to cover to engage it without incurring a penalty.

Read the initial post. The shooters ran past cover, then returned to it before engaging - No penalty.

Covering the same ground and changing directions twice is inefficient, but it is compliant with the rules.

Craig

That was my point that I made in the first response thread. The rules, as I understand it, only applies when engaging/breaking a shot at the target. Which is why I said it may not always be the fastest. In my club at least, the guys you see on top are the smooth and efficient shooters, and not guys like me sprinting around overrunning cover. Knowing this, I still always seem to forget it's not a track and field event out there.

"mental note taken from a master shooters advise".

[Duane Thomas]

There is no stated penalty for simply exposing yourself to a target.

The "use of cover" rules apply to shooting and reloading. Period.

Running past or simply exposing oneself to a target is not, and has never been, in and of itself, a penalty.

Interesting. I didn't know that.

Thanks for the clarification, Craig.

[Duane Thomas]

I have periodically toyed with the idea of asking Rick if I could teach a class on the occasional weekend day where I'd let the students pick a particular topic and teach them how to get better at it. One of the greatest areas I see where most people could improve is moving out of, and especially moving into position.

Then again, do I really want to help the competition get that much better?

[steel1212]

I have periodically toyed with the idea of asking Rick if I could teach a class on the occasional weekend day where I'd let the students pick a particular topic and teach them how to get better at it. One of the greatest areas I see where most people could improve is moving out of, and especially moving into position.

Then again, do I really want to help the competition get that much better?

Just because you teach them what you know doesn't mean you have to teach them all you know.

[kmitchl]

Let's try a hyopthetical situation that's not so hypothetical. During a COF the shooter has to approach a closed door while moving laterally to the right, open the door and engage one threat target behind the door. From the walk through it is clearly advantageous to shoot from the right side of the door since there is tight shot with a possible shoot through on a non-threat if shooting from the left. First shooter in squad starts the COF and engages targets as required. On coming to the door hits the door to open while crossing the opening to get to a shooting position on the right. Door opens faster than anticipated so shooter is exposed to the threat. Shooter correctly moves to cover on the right side before engaging threat. Nothing in the course description required a specific shooting position at the door. SO confirmed that shooting from the right side of the door is acceptable when questioned during the walk through. Did shooter earn a PE?

Keith

I'm not quite sure I understand the question. (?)

There is no stated penalty for simply exposing yourself to a target.

The "use of cover" rules apply to shooting and reloading. Period.

Running past or simply exposing oneself to a target is not, and has never been, in and of itself, a penalty. Shooting at it while you do either of those two things is.

The penalty that was reffered to applies to the active engagement of threat targets. Technically, the shooter could run up to the threat and draw a smiley face on it before he returned to cover to engage it without incurring a penalty.

Read the initial post. The shooters ran past cover, then returned to it before engaging - No penalty.

Covering the same ground and changing directions twice is inefficient, but it is compliant with the rules.

Craig

[Duane Thomas]

Just because you teach them what you know doesn't mean you have to teach them all you know.

LOLing for real.

[Hot Brass]

Let's try a hypothetical situation that's not so hypothetical. During a COF the shooter has to approach a closed door while moving laterally to the right, open the door and engage one threat target behind the door. From the walk through it is clearly advantageous to shoot from the right side of the door since there is tight shot with a possible shoot through on a non-threat if shooting from the left. First shooter in squad starts the COF and engages targets as required. On coming to the door hits the door to open while crossing the opening to get to a shooting position on the right. Door opens faster than anticipated so shooter is exposed to the threat. Shooter correctly moves to cover on the right side before engaging threat. Nothing in the course description required a specific shooting position at the door. SO confirmed that shooting from the right side of the door is acceptable when questioned during the walk through. Did shooter earn a PE?

Keith

kmitchl,

There was a stage like this at the SC State match. The hallway had 3 doors. I never say anyone get a PE for opening the door as you described. I think common sense prevailed.

Now, if the door had been open...