Can attending a “Firearms Training Center” improve your USPSA game?

[Cy Soto]

There are a whole bunch of “Firearms Training” facilities in the US; academies such as Front Sight, Thunder Ranch, etc. They mostly focus on teaching “combat shooting” but, I would like to know: Can someone who is interested solely on improving his/her USPSA/IDPA game really take advantage of one of their handgun courses, or are there mainly geared towards individuals who are looking to improve their self-defense techniques?

I was planning on taking one of the 4-day Handgun Course offered at Front Sight but I now have second thoughts after watching a video on their website, and noticing that they still practice and preach the “Modified Weaver” stance. Plus the more I read about “Dr.” Ignatius Piazza, the less I like the guy.

[HoMiE]

Take a vacation to Oregon.

[Loves2Shoot]

Depends on how you learn. I learn all the time about shooting from things that have nothing to do with shooting.

1. Would it be as effective as taking a specialized IPSC class? No.

2. Would you learn something? If you wanted to.

It sounds like you already know the answer you are looking for. If you look at why you are asking the question that might tell you something to.

Edited May 23, 2008 by Loves2Shoot

[XRe]

+1 to Scott. In the end, the best bang for your buck, if your goal is solely performance improvement in USPSA/IPSC competition, is to take a USPSA/IPSC centric training course from a competition shooter.

[HSMITH]

If you want IPSC training take an IPSC class.

[JimmyZip]

Seems like a decent price for a good course. Where is Bend in relation to Portland? I have relatives there. Would be nice if I could kill two birds with one stone.

Edited May 23, 2008 by JimmyZip

[Pdoyle]

I hear USSA might have a decent competition class going on.

pat

[Duane Thomas]

USPSA/IPSC shooting is very much its own thing. In my experience, most instructors at firearms training classes probably won't be able to teach you that much, if anything, about the technical aspects of shooting. If you're at all advanced in competition shooting, you're probably a better shooter than the instructor(s). Also the areas of improvement that would really pay off the most, like working on your movement skills into and out of position, are something they'll be totally clueless about at a self-defense oriented handgun training class. Like everyone else said, if you want to improve your USPSA/IPSC shooting, take a USPSA/IPSC class.

Having said all that, if you just want to take one of these classes, have at it. You may well pick up some little nugget, or technique that may help you in the future. Like the best martial artists tend to be those who've trained in different arts, the very best shooters tend to be those who've been exposed to different shooting systems, different ideas and techniques, and then put them all together - with a lot of trial and error, and experimentation, and coming up with things on their own - into something that makes sense for them.

[eerw]

Hey Cy..

couple of things to check into..

Manny will be in Pueblo West for 2.5 days in July

Max will be in Weld just before the steel match for 2 days in August..

so two real close to home opportunities..

[CSEMARTIN]

If you're at all advanced in competition shooting, you're probably a better shooter than the instructor(s).

I agree.

[eerw]

Can someone who is interested solely on improving his/her USPSA/IDPA game really take advantage of one of their handgun courses,

you can learn some...and you can challenge yourself to learn more..

but you will find you are shooting faster and more accurately than most if not all the class.

if you are wanting just to improve your shooting skills for the game..you might try hooking up with someone in the clubs that is a M or GM and spend some time on the range with them.

[HSMITH]

The class with Manny that Stuart mentioned is THE hot ticket. Figure out how to get in the class, it will be THE best money you have spent on shooting instruction in your life and also THE best money you have spent on IPSC related shooting. Sell a kidney if you have to, if you really want to improve that is your best chance.

[BR]

Hey Cy-

You might save some dollars, and get more direct USPSA-oriented training by taking the Manny class in July at Pueblo, or by contacting one of the instructors in Colorado. Ron Avery and Glenn Higdon come to mind. I believe Ron is offering a competitive shooting class next week, 29 and 30MAY08 up at Clear Creek. Cheers.

-brian reynolds

[eerw]

Glenn and Ron are two other good sources of info in Colorado

http://glennhigdon.com/

and

http://www.practicalshootingacademy.com/

[Loves2Shoot]

You may well pick up some little nugget, or technique that may help you in the future. Like the best martial artists tend to be those who've trained in different arts, the very best shooters tend to be those who've been exposed to different shooting systems, different ideas and techniques, and then put them all together - with a lot of trial and error, and experimentation, and coming up with things on their own - into something that makes sense for them.

Very written. If you aren't learning it is on you.

[HoMiE]

If you want IPSC training take an IPSC class.

I think it is important to add that just "attending" a class isn't going to turn-around or make you a better shooter. You have to put what you "learn" into practice through a lot of hard work, then you will see the real results.

[J-Ho]

I took a rifle course at Front Sight (that place is a thread all to itself).

at the time, I had never had any instruction of anykind in fundamentals of shooting. It was just kind of monkey see monkey do. So for me the rifle class was very useful. The instructor I had was very good. Nothing fancy, nothing advanced, it was just fundamentals. I had never even heard of NPA at the time. knowing what I know now, I don't think it would help much at all, but then it was helpful. The price was right. I won the class at a match. Being very close to Vegas is not such a bad thing either.

[FranDoc]

I think it depends upon your current skill level. I've taken both USPSA-centered classes from three of the instructors on the Dealer's Forum, and taken class with LE-focused instructors. When I was learning the basics/fundamentals, both types of classes were helpful. Now that I'm concentrating on the 'efficiency' aspects of the game (splits, transitions, position entry/exit, movement), I find it very difficult to transition between the two.

All of the 'usual' aspects of the range have been different (at least in the classes I've taken). Range commands are different ('make ready' vs 'threat!'), takes a while to get used to being on a 'hot' range, the skill practice pace was much slower in the LE classes (again, just my experience, others may be different). CQB exercises with both participants 'hot' have been a little nerve-wracking.

The overall 'goal' is different. Run-&-gun is putting points down range as fast/safely as possible. We get to analyze the COF before we engage it. And, other than catching some hot brass or frag off steel, the targets don't shoot back.

Thank God for every cop who engages potentially lethal situations with less-than-perfect intel.

Different end game, therefore different mindset in training.

If you want to combine both skill sets, Ron Avery might be a good resource. IIRC, he used to be a Sheriff's Deputy. Also, Bob Vogel, (www.vogelshootist.com) is currently with the Kenton OH PD and is part of the USPSA World Shoot Team.

Edited May 24, 2008 by FranDoc

[Rob Boudrie]

Don't be surprised if the instructor insults you at a general pistol class. I took one from a well known, big name instructor who ridiculed competition and USPSA shooting as useless, and the kind of thing that will get you killed.

He also started the class with a basic shooting exercise and a standard that was pass/fail, that he felt indicated sufficient competence with a defensive sidearm. There where about 15 people in the class, and 3 regular USPSA competitors. Care to guess how many in the class could pass his drill every time, on demand? If you guessed 4 you're a bit too high.

[Duane Thomas]

I once attended a match run by a local shooting school for their students. This was just after 9/11 when the air marshall program, and their qualification course, was much in the news. One of the stages at this match was to run everyone through the air marshall qual shoot. "The toughest qualification course in federal law enforcement." You only got to shoot it once. Care to guess how many people in the class passed the qual, first (only) time through? If you guess two, you guess one too many. (Only extreme modesty prevents me from mention exactly who that one person was.)

[Carlos]

Cy - you want a USPSA-specific class. Take a look at the classes offered by USSA.

[kurtm]

I agree and disagree with a lot of what has been said here. As an instructor who does a lot of L.E training and IPSC training, the two are worlds apart and it is hard to wear the hat of L.E and IPSC in the same class. L.E/Self Defence classes are geard twards basics..Grip , Clear, rotate, up, look, press. Front sight focus, repeat, repeat under timer stress, under new environment stress...ie fun houses, low light, moving targets.

IPSC classes focus much more on speed of weapons manipulation, movement, course reading. I think if you have a very exceptional IPSC teacher you can gleen a world of knowlegde from them...I.E Marshal Luten at T.D.S.A, Phil Strader, Eric Lund at USSA, Frank Garcia at Universal, Manny Brag, Dirty pool 40, here on the forums, Max Michel/Travis Tomssi ( my favorite, but I just kind of like those guys!)

The problem is that what fills most classes is people who want to have a basic level of self defence skills. Very seldom, in the U.S. anyway, do people want a "real" competition class. I can fill them to over flowing for rifle and shotgun over seas, but here in the U.S. it is darn hard to get more than 2-3 to commit Maybe it is because, as people posted here, The advanced shooter "doesn't learn much" as the class will always degrade to the lowest level of shooter, or what works for some doesn't work for others. All I know is your time would not be wasted with any of the above named instructors when you wish to learn the high speed low drag way to shoot a pistol.....For rifle and shotgun....well see me KurtM

[ChuckS]

Glenn and Ron are two other good sources of info in Colorado

http://glennhigdon.com/

and

http://www.practicalshootingacademy.com/

Cy,

Give Glenn a call. He has all the background but only focuses on USPSA. Since he is (more or less) local to you, you could work out a convenient schedule with him. Good guy, too. It would help if you like bananas

Later,

Chuck

[Shane G.]

USPSA/IPSC shooting is very much its own thing. In my experience, most instructors at firearms training classes probably won't be able to teach you that much, if anything, about the technical aspects of shooting. If you're at all advanced in competition shooting, you're probably a better shooter than the instructor(s). Also the areas of improvement that would really pay off the most, like working on your movement skills into and out of position, are something they'll be totally clueless about at a self-defense oriented handgun training class. Like everyone else said, if you want to improve your USPSA/IPSC shooting, take a USPSA/IPSC class.

Having said all that, if you just want to take one of these classes, have at it. You may well pick up some little nugget, or technique that may help you in the future. Like the best martial artists tend to be those who've trained in different arts, the very best shooters tend to be those who've been exposed to different shooting systems, different ideas and techniques, and then put them all together - with a lot of trial and error, and experimentation, and coming up with things on their own - into something that makes sense for them.

I am brand new to competitive shooting. I agree with you about Martial Artist. I have trained in several different martial arts and each one of them often exposes the strengths and weaknesses of the others. Since I am new to the sport I am trying to learn as much as possible about the game of shooting. I would always switch martial arts when I felt that my training had reached a leveling off point. I think if you have reached a point where you feel your training has reached a point where it has leveled of maybe one of these classes could help.