What procedurals/penalty would I earn for....

[boo radley]

I was looking at the stage description for an upcoming match, and became curious about something.

Suppose the WSB read (making this up): "Enter the shooting area, retrieve needle and thread from box on table, thread the needle, then engage targets as they become visible from within the shooting area. One procedural if needle is not properly threaded."

I have two questions on the above. If I totally ignore trying to thread the needle, will I only get 1 procedural? For example, if it takes me 5 seconds to thread a needle, my hit factor might be higher if I just eat the 10 points.

Second question -- suppose I want to draw as I'm entering the shooting area, and put my pistol on the table, while I attempt to thread the needle. Legal, right? As long as I'm within 1m of the gun and 10.5.2 doesn't apply? The gun is already in 8.1 from the start.

Thx

[DrawandDuck]

Your kidding about this right????? I consider myself to have very good eyesight but threading a needle is a pain in the ass and if you have bad eyesight Forget it......

Randal

[Flatland Shooter]

Your kidding about this right????? I consider myself to have very good eyesight but threading a needle is a pain in the ass and if you have bad eyesight Forget it......

Randal

If you have DrawandDuck's eyesight, skipping the needle might be considered getting an advantage. If so, the MD might assess a 10 point penalty per shot.

Bill

[lcs]

10.2.2 A competitor who fails to comply with a procedure specified in the written stage briefing will incur one procedural penalty for each occurrence. However, if a competitor has gained a significant advantage during non-compliance, the competitor may be assessed one procedural penalty for each shot fired, instead of a single penalty (e.g. firing multiple shots contrary to the required position or stance).

One Procedural for sure, may be more if (let's say) four targets were engaged without moving from the start position you could be assessed (In addition to the one) 80 points more.

Subjective call on "significant advantage".

Second point the rule is now;

10.5.3.1 The competitor maintains constant physical contact with the handgun, until it is placed firmly and securely on the ground or another stable object, and

10.5.3.2 The competitor remains within 3 feet of the handgun at all times (except where the handgun is placed at a greater distance, under the supervision of a Range Official, in order to comply with a start position), and ......

So, one would say yes to laying it on the table if 10.5.3.1/3 is met. Why would you want to draw, lay it down, then pick it up again?

Hope that helps.

[boo radley]

Yeah, the needle was just a silly example...just substitute 'some' task you have to do prior to engaging the targets, that's somewhat lengthy.

FullRace -- so it's the MD's decision....that seems a roll of the dice.

On the drawing of the gun, if the task were involved, even with a locked race-holster, it might be faster and less risky of a dropped gun to draw at the beep, go to the table, put the gun down, do the task, pick it up and go....

Here's another wrinkle: suppose I ignore the needle, shoot the stage, move safely back to the table, engage the safety, put the gun down per 10.5.3.2, then thread the needle -- *quietly* so I don't register on the timer. Now what?

Edited May 15, 2008 by boo radley

[vluc]

edited

Edited May 15, 2008 by vluc

[L9X25]

Are you saying that would I be required to grab the needle and thread and make a feeble attempt at complying before I gave up and took the P to avoid the 1P per shot penalty?

10.2.2 A competitor who fails to comply with a procedure specified in the written stage briefing will incur one procedural penalty for each occurrence. However, if a competitor has gained a significant advantage during non-compliance, the competitor may be assessed one procedural penalty for each shot fired, instead of a single penalty (e.g. firing multiple shots contrary to the required position or stance).

One Procedural for sure, may be more if (let's say) four targets were engaged without moving from the start position you could be assessed (In addition to the one) 80 points more.

Subjective call on "significant advantage".

Second point the rule is now;

10.5.3.1 The competitor maintains constant physical contact with the handgun, until it is placed firmly and securely on the ground or another stable object, and

10.5.3.2 The competitor remains within 3 feet of the handgun at all times (except where the handgun is placed at a greater distance, under the supervision of a Range Official, in order to comply with a start position), and ......

So, one would say yes to laying it on the table if 10.5.3.1/3 is met. Why would you want to draw, lay it down, then pick it up again?

Hope that helps.

[JThompson]

Yeah, the needle was just a silly example...just substitute 'some' task you have to do prior to engaging the targets, that's somewhat lengthy.

FullRace -- so it's the MD's decision....that seems a roll of the dice.

On the drawing of the gun, if the task were involved, even with a locked race-holster, it might be faster and less risky of a dropped gun to draw at the beep, go to the table, put the gun down, do the task, pick it up and go....

Here's another wrinkle: suppose I ignore the needle, shoot the stage, move safely back to the table, engage the safety, put the gun down per 10.5.3.2, then thread the needle -- *quietly* so I don't register on the timer. Now what?

It's all in how it's written up... if they say proceed to table and thread needle then engage as visible... you need to thread the needle first. If you do set the gun down make sure you do it in a safe condition or you will be done for the day as well. Also, they can not ask to reholster... not that they said this, but....

I think this is a poor example... it should be something that can be done relatively easy as to make it equatable for all competitors.

Edited May 15, 2008 by JThompson

[lcs]

Yeah, the needle was just a silly example...just substitute 'some' task you have to do prior to engaging the targets, that's somewhat lengthy.

FullRace -- so it's the MD's decision....that seems a roll of the dice.

On the drawing of the gun, if the task were involved, even with a locked race-holster, it might be faster and less risky of a dropped gun to draw at the beep, go to the table, put the gun down, do the task, pick it up and go....

Here's another wrinkle: suppose I ignore the needle, shoot the stage, move safely back to the table, engage the safety, put the gun down per 10.5.3.2, then thread the needle -- *quietly* so I don't register on the timer. Now what?

RM ultimate decision actually. Nope, the WSB (as you defined it) is understood "the task must be performed before engaging targets".

Get a better holster, if you can't run, climb, or whatever with it.

Rule #1, If in doubt, ask the RO/CRO BEFORE starting the course of fire. If your plan is ok, they will normally tell you.

[lcs]

Are you saying that would I be required to grab the needle and thread and make a feeble attempt at complying before I gave up and took the P to avoid the 1P per shot penalty?

10.2.2 A competitor who fails to comply with a procedure specified in the written stage briefing will incur one procedural penalty for each occurrence. However, if a competitor has gained a significant advantage during non-compliance, the competitor may be assessed one procedural penalty for each shot fired, instead of a single penalty (e.g. firing multiple shots contrary to the required position or stance).

One Procedural for sure, may be more if (let's say) four targets were engaged without moving from the start position you could be assessed (In addition to the one) 80 points more.

Subjective call on "significant advantage".

Second point the rule is now;

10.5.3.1 The competitor maintains constant physical contact with the handgun, until it is placed firmly and securely on the ground or another stable object, and

10.5.3.2 The competitor remains within 3 feet of the handgun at all times (except where the handgun is placed at a greater distance, under the supervision of a Range Official, in order to comply with a start position), and ......

So, one would say yes to laying it on the table if 10.5.3.1/3 is met. Why would you want to draw, lay it down, then pick it up again?

Hope that helps.

YUP, as he wrote the WSB .....thread the needle, then engage the targets....

I did not write the WSB and I hope no one would with such requirements. I agree, the example is a bit out there. I was answering the "intent" of the question.

[boo radley]

Thx, FullRace -- it's still no clearer what the final penalty might be, but it's not something I'm going to try to circumvent.

With the exception of the task, the WSB is basically verbatim.

[Flexmoney]

I was looking at the stage description for an upcoming match, and became curious about something.

Suppose the WSB read (making this up): "Enter the shooting area, retrieve needle and thread from box on table, thread the needle, then engage targets as they become visible from within the shooting area. One procedural if needle is not properly threaded."

If worded like that, it is pre-determined that it will be one single penalty, not a per shot penalty.

[lcs]

Thx, FullRace -- it's still no clearer what the final penalty might be, but it's not something I'm going to try to circumvent.

With the exception of the task, the WSB is basically verbatim.

Your welcome, for sure you are going to get 1P because the WSB said to do the task before engaging.

I don't think anyone could answer the "significant advantage" part without seeing the stage design and reading the real WSB.

I think you should have an idea of what your "minimum" penalty would be for not doing the task first as your example is written!

Edited May 15, 2008 by FullRace

[lcs]

Tx Flex, I missed that part.

[Fireant]

Boo,

I know which match you are talking about and I was thinking the same thing. It would not be the MD call. The WSB says it's 1 procedural if not done. So, even gaining a significant advantage you only get 1 no matter how much they moan. If they wanted to make it a per shot it has to be changed in the WSB. Any attempt regardless of how pathetic it may be counts.

[bruce282]

Boo,

Unless the United Sisterhood of Garment Workers was shooting on your squad , I'd give 1 PE per shot, threading a (normal) needle is a bitch, and by not doing it you gained a significant advantage.

Edited to add that as Flex and others pointed out, just 1 PE.

Bruce

Edited May 15, 2008 by bruce282

[Flatland Shooter]

The WSB says it's 1 procedural if not done. So, even gaining a significant advantage you only get 1 no matter how much they moan.

Actually he said the WSB says "One procedural if needle is not properly threaded." I read that to mean an attempt to thread the needle must be made to limit yourself to 1 procedural for the COF.

If he fails to attempt to thread the needle (as he indicated he may do), then he may be gaining a significant advantage and failed to even attempt compliance with the directions. He could get hit with the 1 penalty pre shot.

As also noted, just ask the RO before shooting the stage. A lot less hassle.

Bill

[boo radley]

The WSB says it's 1 procedural if not done. So, even gaining a significant advantage you only get 1 no matter how much they moan.

Actually he said the WSB says "One procedural if needle is not properly threaded." I read that to mean an attempt to thread the needle must be made to limit yourself to 1 procedural for the COF.

If he fails to attempt to thread the needle (as he indicated he may do), then he may be gaining a significant advantage and failed to even attempt compliance with the directions. He could get hit with the 1 penalty pre shot.

As also noted, just ask the RO before shooting the stage. A lot less hassle.

Bill

Hiya Roger -- yup, we're probably thinking of the same stage. Soon. East Coast.

Bill, by the time the squad I'm on shoots the stage, I'm sure other it will have been well thrashed out, but for sake of argument, this is pretty vague stuff, no? I don't mind asking the RO, but it's possible the RO won't be right -- look at all the different answers already.

[Nik Habicht]

Simple solution --- ask the RM. Whatever he decides is probably what you ought to go with, unless you want to chance an arbitration.....

....sometimes the conservative approach allows us to focus on the stages, where engaging in the fight can distract us from our goal....

[Gary Stevens]

Gee I hope this is not a match I am working as RM. Regardless, the briefing clearly stated one procedural so that should be the end of that issue.

[Boris Zaretsky]

You all are missing one point. This is not a needlepoint sport - this is a shooting sport. How threading a needle can demonstrate one's ability to shoot within the principles of DVC? Read 1.1.3 for that matter. The described COF should be withdrawn all together. The course presents non-shooting challenge that is not reasonably applied to all shooters (see 1.1.6). I, for example use shooting prescription glasses when I shoot and reading glasses when I have to put thread into a needle. Hence, I have to change glasses during the stage which is not the case for people with good vision.

This stage is a perfect candidate for removing it from the match.

Cheers.

[Flexmoney]

Take another read folks.

There is no threading the needle. The opening poster was using that as a make-believe example.

[J-Ho]

If there is a lot of gray area surrounding the course of action you want to take, I say take it. What the worst that can happen? So you lose a little bit on a stage. Oh no What's the best thing that could happen? You win the stage. I say try it and see what happens.

As to the needle and thread. Shoot the stage, ignore the needle and thread, tell the wife to get sewin'!

[Johann the Horrible]

Get needle, get thread, get practicing - just add that to your practicing routine.

[DogmaDog]

I say one procedural, period, because that's what the stage briefing says. It's a really iffy call to say someone has to "attempt" to thread the needle..."I looked in the box, didn't see the needle, so couldn't thread it...did I make an "attempt"? "I reached in the box with both hands, and tried to grab the needle and thread...both hands missed (I only spent two tenths of a second trying)...did I make and "attempt"?

At a major match, this kind of thing should have been discussed and thought through by the match officials beforehand.

DD