USPSA vs IPSC Production div. rules ?!

[Ramas]

We have discussion on other forum what is better in Production div...

I want to know what would you like better:

1. no modifications in IPSC vs internal modifications in USPSA (Yes to IPSC or Yes to USPSA)

2. no rounds limit in IPSC vs rounds limit in USPSA (same)

3. race holsters in IPSC vs no race holsters in USPSA (same)

I think those are main differences between our asociations in Production division. Which oportunities you guys would like most no matter on which asociation rules will you shoot?

P.S. I would like to see your opinions only! Pease do not comment rules differences here.

Thank YOU!

[SA Friday]

tick, tick, tick, tick..... :popcorn1:

[Jim Norman]

We have discussion on other forum what is better in Production div...

I want to know what would you like better:

I have interspersed my comments below

1. no modifications in IPSC vs internal modifications in USPSA (Yes to IPSC or Yes to USPSA)

Since "No Modifications" is nearly impossible to police. I think that USPSA offers a more fair game in that You can modify your gun if you want, but you don't have to break a rule to get a better trigger.

2. no rounds limit in IPSC vs rounds limit in USPSA (same)

USPSA allows a broader range of guns to compete in Production by limiting guns to 10 rounds. IPSC is essentially a 9mm game, whil in USPSA we have 9mm, .40 and .45 cal guns

3. race holsters in IPSC vs no race holsters in USPSA (same)

Production was supposed to be a return to "Practical" or at least I thought so. A Race holster is arguably NOT practical. Try to do a somersault with a Limcat holster. The holster should be one that would work under all conditions.

[mike4045]

I like # 1 & 2 for IPSC. I like no race holsters for USPSA. I would shoot more production if I could load my gun to capacity. I have seen some production guns with as many or more mods than my Limited gun.

Mike

[chuckw]

A Race holster is arguably NOT practical. Try to do a somersault with a Limcat holster. The holster should be one that would work under all conditions.

Yeah, right. When was the last time you did a somersault while carrying your gun in a USPSA-legal holster?

[AikiDale]

I like there are two different games we can play.

If I had to choose one I would like to allow modifications, no round limit but mag must fit flush and allow any safe holster.

:popcorn1:

[EkuJustice]

I like the round limit in uspsa for production. It allows the competition to be more open to different types of guns. Make it unlimited and its going to be like limited and open are now trying to cram as many rounds in the mag as physically. It also allows those in ban states(and if we get another ban in the future) a place to compete without having to shell out big bucks for magazines. Production is much more of a "street gun" game than any of the other guns the same as single stack. It allows a good starting place for people to get into the sport without dropping big bucks on a gun to be competative. The way it is now one can have a glock 17/34, an uncle mikes holser and mag pouches and have a pretty competative setup (especially in the ban states), not go out get the same gun and have to pay big bucks for "preban" mags that are legal in their state or be at a major disadvantage. Round limits also allow more guns to be competative, make it unlimited and flush and the glock is gonna be basically the only competative gun

[Nik Habicht]

I like modifications and a mag cap limit, and I could care less about race holsters as long as the positioning requirement doesn't change.......

None of that makes USPSA better and IPSC worse, or the reverse; it just means that they're different. I still hope to shoot an international match in Production at some point in my life....

[Jim Norman]

A Race holster is arguably NOT practical. Try to do a somersault with a Limcat holster. The holster should be one that would work under all conditions.

Yeah, right. When was the last time you did a somersault while carrying your gun in a USPSA-legal holster?

Well, actually Chuck, I have tripped and since I wearing a Kydex Holster, not dropped my gun, however, I have also brushed against a prop while taping and knocked my Para out of a LOCKED race holster, so, I suppose that while I was not required to actually perform a somersault, that I do have a bit of experience regarding the retention capabilities of a Kydex vs a Race Holster.

I do have and use both, and in 3-gun, I do wear a Kydex and in 3-gun, I have had to traverse a rope between to points, crawl under walls and vault over them. I would NOT trust any race holster to survive that.

Jim

[Jman]

I like there are two different games we can play.

If I had to choose one I would like to allow modifications, no round limit but mag must fit flush and allow any safe holster.

:popcorn1:

+1

Very sensible.

Jim M

[Chuck Anderson]

My preference would be no modifications, but after shooting IPSC and viewing the IPSC forum that doesn't seem practical or enforcible. Just the volume of questions and arguments Vince gets tells me that it is not a workable solution. Same goes with the magzaine limits. While 10 round mags certainly change the game it is a lot easier to enforce. Not sure what the final number should be for IPSC but it would be nice to have a number and let you do whatever you want with your mags. I also like not having Race Holsters in USPSA. I think it is alot easier to introduce people to our game by using a semi practical holster as opposed to a $200.00 race holster.

[caps]

My preference would be no modifications, but after shooting IPSC and viewing the IPSC forum that doesn't seem practical or enforcible. Just the volume of questions and arguments Vince gets tells me that it is not a workable solution.

I've also seen Vince get "testy" at times with the endless questions. Reading between the lines, I think the 5lb minimum trigger pull is what keeps people honest in IPSC. You really can't do much internal work with such a high limitation, and trying to change major parts is too obivous.

I'd also think IPSC should impose a 10 round limit, but Vince already has a battle over his idea of a 15 round limit. I'd hate to be in his shoes coz he's gonna get hammered no matter what.

[scirocco38s]

As things are now in Production, I wont shoot it, I dont care for the 10 round limit, I would be ok with the 5lb minimum trigger pull on double action and I am ok either way on the holster(I could go for both).

The fact that Vince may or may not want something in IPSC is not really a concern for me. I would rather see him out of any position of influence or authority. Maybe then we could get a world shoot in some country other than a 3rd world hellhole.

As for the other rules in production such as mag locations and the other bits, they are ok too.

[Ramas]

but Vince already has a battle over his idea of a 15 round limit.

Besides 15 round limit there are few other suggestions on IPSC Production div. rules:

1. Box rule- gun should fit in box with original mag without any attachments and tweaking as it is in Standard div.

2. Magazine lenght rule- like in Open div.

3. No aproval for guns more than X rounds in magazines

4. Mandatory reloads rule- one manadatory reload in medium courses and two in long courses anywhere you want

5. First mag loaded to X rounds

6. No rules change

[BritinUSA]

...Maybe then we could get a world shoot in some country other than a 3rd world hellhole. ...

Just to clarify; Any IPSC region can offer to host a World Shoot. No countries are rejected. Each country makes their pitch at the General Assembly (held at the current World Shoot). Each region then votes, each region has one vote. The Executive Council (of which Vince is a member) has no say whatsoever.

As to Production Division; I like the fact that we can modify the guns, prohibiting such modification makes it very hard to enforce without resorting to CSI type investigations into each gun prior to the match. I like the idea of a magazine limit, I can live with 10 rounds but 15 would be nicer, but that would harm those states that only allow 10. So I could go either way.

Not keen on the trigger pull test either. I think it's unfair to certain guns. There are striker and hammer guns and this brings differences in trigger pull.

[ima45dv8]

"Politics

Policy or political debates of any kind are not welcome.

Specifically including (but not limited to):

USPSA vs IPSC

IPSC vs IDPA

STI vs SVI

Limited 10 vs Limited Class

This Division vs That Division

This Government vs That Government

Gun Control Issues"