Dowter Posted June 12, 2003 Share Posted June 12, 2003 This topic is an old one http://64.62.172.100/~brianeno/index.php?a...07&hl=pro+class but came to mind when I was reading ads by the two people running for USPSA President. One person is more inclined to promote USPSA by showcasing the top shooters on a national level and the other person is more inclined to promote USPSA has a sport for everyone. (This is of course just just my broad generalization. I admit I could be off so let's not get into an argument of candidate positions.) I think that it's possible that we can create a competitive system where the great shooters would have a reason to show up and the new shooters wouldn't feel intimidated. This could be accomplished with a Pro/Amateur classification. But of course "the devil is in the details" so let me propose one system. I have a very simple way to handle the pro/amateur classification. Amateurs are still D-GM but are only eligible for trophys. "Pro Class" is just one class with no designations (D-GM) and the shooter is eligible for monetary prizes. A person is "Pro Class" just by designating themself as "Pro Class" for a match. "Pro Class" basically just means "competing for money". The shooter can also pick and choose what matches he/she wants to shoot Pro in. It's not like once you turn pro, you're a pro for life. This is very similiar to (if not exactly)what Eric Warren posted on the topic - you check a box that says that you are competing for money or not. There will be no requirements for Pro Class - it will be voluntary. If you are a D Class shooter and want to compete against people who will crush you - my hat's off to you - have fun. If you are a GM and want to compete for trophys as an Amateur - hey, whatever floats your boat- have fun. "Pro Class" will not be some title of honor that is bestowed upon some shooter(or burdened upon depending on one's perspective). Titles of achievement don't really work as planned (y'know - grandbagging). It (Pro Class) will just designate that you will be competing for cash against other people who want to compete for cash - that's all. Those who only want to compete for trophys get to be Amateur. I never really liked the special olympics achievement mindset where everyone is a winner. If you are going to raffle off prizes to competitors, why even bother having a match. I remember once a local shooter was complaining how he didn't like it how one of the big dogs who won the match was "whining" that he won almost the same ammount of money as the high c-class shooter. Actually - I TOTALLY agree with the big dog (name withheld). Excellence should be rewarded more than mediocrity. This brings up what I think is the biggest flaw in rewarding class winners. If you won your class then a good argument could be made that you should have been classed higher. It's like the USPSA list of top shooters by class. 59.9954% is the world's greatest C- Shooter. 60.0012 is the world's crappiest B-Shooter. Being the best(or worst) in a class doesn't really mean that much. It just means that your skill level just happens to be close to a border of a somewhat arbitrary class designation. Giving trophy or plaques to a class winner is fine but making the match winner split the pot with someone who should have been classed higher - I don't agree with. That's my idea(or at least the parts I didn't steal from other people ). What's yours? The above system that I'm proposing is just for major matches. Local matches(as far as I'm concerned) could stuff dollar bills into a shotgun and fire them over a crowd of shooters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shred Posted June 12, 2003 Share Posted June 12, 2003 Personally I think cash payback totally misses the point, but then I'm not trying to make a living at this. I like prize tables because I get to try something I haven't already and might never on my own, be it a JP AR-15 Trigger group, Grams basepads, Shooters Connection gear bag, Dillon ears, bullet and brass certificates, tub of Slide Glide, whatever. I don't nearly care as much how much it's "worth". I've never picked something up based on how much I could sell it for. Gear manufacturers love me because if I like what I get off the table, I'll thank them, buy more from them and tell my friends. Who knows where that check for $100 came from? Am I going to write every sponsor a "thank you for contributing $2.50 to my prize" note? Will I show other shooters the check for $100 at the range and rave about how great it is? Probably not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vincent Posted June 12, 2003 Share Posted June 12, 2003 Be thankful you already have so many classifications (6 in IPSC vs 4 in IDPA). In IDPA once you are a low level Master you are competing with all the Pro shooters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loves2Shoot Posted June 12, 2003 Share Posted June 12, 2003 Cash to overall finish only. Enough sandbagers around to make rewarding class winners with cash a silly idea. Give them something they can hang on their wall and make them feel stupid for shooting below their skill level. Pro category make sense, but only if you adjust entry fees accordingly. I don't want to pay $100 for a match and not have a chance at the $$$ unless I shoot Pro. Let people that think they have the skills pony up the cash and go for it, and don't lay it on the backs of the recreational shooters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dowter Posted June 12, 2003 Author Share Posted June 12, 2003 Be thankful you already have so many classifications (6 in IPSC vs 4 in IDPA). In IDPA once you are a low level Master you are competing with all the Pro shooters. Calling it "Pro Class" can be kind of misleading. It's not really a class at all in the traditional sense. It's more of a designation - you shoot for money (or monetarily significant prizes)rather than trophys. I agree that we don't need another class like an "E" or "Super Grand Master" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wakal Posted June 12, 2003 Share Posted June 12, 2003 Local matches(as far as I'm concerned) could stuff dollar bills into a shotgun and fire them over a crowd of shooters. Matches are carried on the backs of the D, C, and B shooters...half the shooters (both by class and by numbers), but the bottom of the prize table. The top shooters pull guns and frames, the last guy gets a Shok-Buff (except for Area-4, the D Limited guys got a pile of goodies each...silly bozos running the prize table!). In effect, the entry-level shooters are sponsoring the top dogs. Why? So when they progress, as most do, then THEY will be subsidized by the lower shooters? Are prize tables nothing but a Ponzi scheme? I kind of like the "money" v. "trophy" idea, although speaking as oft-overburdened match staff, it would be a pain to run....since most sponsors love donating unsellable or slow-selling stuff that gets written off at full retail instead of cash... Which is why I, like Shred, really like prize tables at this stage in the game...but can still see the interest in money/trophy matches. Hey, I love arguing both sides... Alex Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dowter Posted June 12, 2003 Author Share Posted June 12, 2003 Now that I think of it calling my proposal "Pro Class" probably wasn't a good idea. I probably should have called it "Pro Designation" and "Amateur Designation". Calling it a class makes it sounds like I'm trying to dilute the shooting groups some more, and that definitely was not where I was trying to go. My intentions were to create a system where rewards are given to those who have worked hard enough to earn them while still giving some recognition to those who are still working on their game. In 2002 Todd Jarret shot in 5 major uspsa matches. TGO shot in 4. Jerry Barnhart shot in 3. Doug Koenig shot in 2. I would love that these guys would shoot more matches so that I can compete against them and watch them but I totally understand why they don't bother to go to a match when no matter how well they shoot - they're not going to win more money than the guy that wins C-Class. Heck, I'm not even talking about the top dogs getting rich off of a match. I'm talking about them getting enough cash so they can afford a plane ticket home. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chp5 Posted June 12, 2003 Share Posted June 12, 2003 I agree in concept. Why not just keep the Class winners, etc for trophies only - - and keep the cash for the top finishers in each division (e.g., Limited, Open, etc) regardless of class. That way there's no need to designate each shooter as a "pro" or "amateur." Simplify . . . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
h4444 Posted June 12, 2003 Share Posted June 12, 2003 By default I think the system exists today,,,,,if you're competing for prize table goodies,,,,,if you really want stuff, you better be damn good if the table isn't a drawing type. Big dawgs take the goodies anyway,,,,,,,Cash, frames,,,,,whatever. I love the competition and enjoy the sport, prize tables are gravy for me,,,,if I win something Cool,,,,,if I don't, I'm not disappointed in the least. Problem is determining what motivates guys,,,,goodies or the fun of the sport. How many are willing to pony up extra dough to shoot for cash and how long will they do it when the top few guys continue to take the lion share of their entry moneies??? Also, will the big dawgs go for it. Entry fees are already high and most of the top guys have established reputations and make money off the sport in other ways (classes, endorsements, other business opportunities, and etc), they don't have to risk cash to make money......shooting the matches keeps them in front of the niche shooting market (niche since there are relatively few of us,,,,15,000 or so regular competitive shooters). I think the idea is pretty cool, but I don't know if it would be sustained or default back to what we already have today. Lots of the prize tables come from the generous donations of the companies that serve our little niche market, certainly entry fees fund a lot of prize tables, but donations do help keep the costs down for shooters, I think consideration must be made there, if we don't support those companies and keep them actively engaged in the sport, we could lose a major ally. Those companies don't necesarily target the big dawgs,,,,they want to be more inclusive of the competitive shooting market. I think a way would have to be found to keep these companies engaged and active in the ametuer ranks and doing that would mean, we'd likely still need something beyond plaques. Regardless of Pro/Ametuer it is still going to be a while be I'm doing the butt kicking. Good idea,,,,devil is in the details...... H4444 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ross Carter Posted June 13, 2003 Share Posted June 13, 2003 I think them Pro's aught to be in their own class. All 4 of them!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigDave Posted June 13, 2003 Share Posted June 13, 2003 Welcome Ross!!! Excellent point, by the way. In 3D archery competition, there is (or used to be a couple of years ago) a pro class and an amatuer class. Take a look at this link, you think that we have issues with our 5 classes? Take a look at what 3D archery uses as a structure. http://www.ibo.net/rules/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liota Posted June 13, 2003 Share Posted June 13, 2003 I think them Pro's aught to be in their own class. All 4 of them!!!! Come on out swinging the hammer of truth! There are at least 4 of them on the Army Shooting team. Does that bring the count to 7? Good to see you here, Ross!! Liota Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Moore Posted June 13, 2003 Share Posted June 13, 2003 i would like to see idpa open a grand master class. now that i'm a low level master i have to compete with the pros. this is why i'll never shoot the idpa nationals until they revise the classification. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TDean Posted June 13, 2003 Share Posted June 13, 2003 2480 registered members......29 votes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck D Posted June 13, 2003 Share Posted June 13, 2003 Pro Class huh? Isn't that what GM class was designed for? I would favor an "industry" class. Let those amongst us with those colourful logos and factory sponsorships compete there. They would be eligible for the match win (national champion) and "prizes" in the industry catagory. Denise Minor has it correct when she says that USPSA should market and promote the sport for ALL involved, not just the shining stars of the game. As far as cash prized go...bad idea. Nothing corrupts the system like the ability to win a few bucks. Ever hear of anyone who goes to great lengths to cheat, sandbag or weasel their way to winning an IPSC/USPSA Presidents medal? I'm sure there are some of them out there but they must be few and far between in relationship to a cash reward/prize. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Heiter Posted June 13, 2003 Share Posted June 13, 2003 Nah, no "pro" class. I like the idea that I'm just a low C but Blake Miguez and I are competing for the same cash and/or prizes. Sure he gets all kinds of stuff off of the prize table and I'm picking up the pink mag brush, but when I look at my %, that's about right. One of these days if I work hard enough (and he breaks both his legs) I'm going to be right up there with him but that's beside the point. Ask any golfer if they'd like to be able to participate in a tournament with Tiger and then be thankful that our sport lets us go head to head with the best there is any time you want to sign up. If you change the rules to try to give everyone trophies then they're no longer trophies, they're attendance awards. Quit trying to turn this into some sort of communist t-ball league. Ok, so maybe that last sentence was antagonistic and unncessary but it's Friday Flame Day and how often do you get to use a phrase like "commy t-ball" anyway? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Thomas Posted June 14, 2003 Share Posted June 14, 2003 i would like to see idpa open a grand master class. now that i'm a low level master i have to compete with the pros. this is why i'll never shoot the idpa nationals until they revise the classification. Then you'll never shoot the IDPA Nationals. What a way to gyp yourself! Why not just go, kick ass and have fun? Emphasis on the "have fun." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ross Carter Posted June 14, 2003 Share Posted June 14, 2003 Thanks for the welcome guys. Where's the tongue in cheek smilie? I wasn't thinking about the Army guys, they are pro's for sure. I can see both sides of this but personally I like the idea of going head to head with the best there is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skeeter Posted June 14, 2003 Share Posted June 14, 2003 good to hear from you Ross. how are you doing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Hostetter Posted June 15, 2003 Share Posted June 15, 2003 The GM class was designed to do just that, create a place where the "Pro's" could compete. I am however in favor of the Pro/Am concept with a few changes. For one all GM's should automaticialy be required to shoot in the Pro side, and M's should have the option. The Pro entry fee should be a lot higher, and the Am entry fee should be a lot lower. Prize tables should go away completely, Am should compete for trophies only. This is one of the only sports where the losers think they should be rewarded as well as the winner's. Regarding supporting lower classes being the backbone of the sport, that is true as far as it goes. Most of top M's and GM's spent a LONG time in those lower classes "supporting" the sport before they became good enough in start win something. If you want to be a winner then put in the years of hard work, time, money, and dedication required............. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wakal Posted June 15, 2003 Share Posted June 15, 2003 Good thought (high entry fee for Pro, low for Am). Only makes sense. On the long hours of practice...sure is easier to put in the long hours when that is ALL you do, instead of having to work for a living. Back to the military teams being professional: I really only consider the Army IPSC team to be professionals. After all, that is their job...full time shooters. The Air Force team, such as it is, works their "real" jobs full time and THEN shoots matches. They just get comp time off to go to those matches, and have some of their travel expenses covered. Not that I'm bitching. No, wait, I'm bitching. There was a really excellent point made earlier about the artificial and arbitrary class destinctions, and how trophies are awarded for shooting in the appropriate class fishbowl but not over. Kind of like the shooting version of "The Price is Right"...as close as you can get to this magic percentage without going over... Lets face it, everything after the match winner are just losers. First loser, second loser...two hundred and second loser (hey, that's me!)... IMO, the class trophies are just there to try and keep interest levels up for the average shooter. No Enos member is average, of course...that is why we are reading and posting here Alex Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dowter Posted June 15, 2003 Author Share Posted June 15, 2003 I agree in concept.Why not just keep the Class winners, etc for trophies only - - and keep the cash for the top finishers in each division (e.g., Limited, Open, etc) regardless of class. That way there's no need to designate each shooter as a "pro" or "amateur." Simplify . . . After further reflection, I think that I like chp5's idea better than the Pro/Amateur Designation. He's right, it simplifys while accomplishing the same thing. Should I start a new poll? Use a Pro/Amateur designation for competitors or Cash/prizes for top division finishers and trophys/plaques for top class. or Cash/prizes for top classes too? or Just raffle off the cash/prizes. or Screw all cash/prizes. Keep the sport pure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dowter Posted June 15, 2003 Author Share Posted June 15, 2003 Lets face it, everything after the match winner are just losers. First loser, second loser...two hundred and second loser (hey, that's me!)... Alex I think that it was Ric Flair who said "If you're not in first place you're just tied for last place with everyone else." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Moneypenny Posted June 15, 2003 Share Posted June 15, 2003 2nd place is first loser! i think we have enough classes. and divisions. i mean we have Open Limited Limited 10 Production Revolver ======= GM M A B C D a total of 11 different places. you could compete in. society gets less and less rewarding for the winners as there are more and more losers in society. i realize i would be too hard assed for a lot of people and it would be a small sport but thats the way it is to me. IDPA... you don't like your class.. shoot a different gun, become the best SSR marksman on the planet. Me. i made IDPA SSP master last year, this year, i'm fairly competitive there. next year, i hope to be more so. but i like the pressure, i was trying to "win the match" as an expert somewhere inside i knew i was stupid, but i still won my division a couple times. sometimes its best if the brass ring is further away, it lets you see how fare you have, and how far you can reach, if not would we really know our potential. Limited 40.. your better than you think look how much you've improved in the past year. give it a couple years, we'll fight it out for 1st at IDPA Nat's. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dowter Posted June 15, 2003 Author Share Posted June 15, 2003 Ok, I'm kind of moving the topic over here. http://64.62.172.100/~brianeno/index.php?a...t=ST&f=6&t=6547 The poll question has more options. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now