idpa targets

[cnote]

I was recently at a match , where an overzealous RO (he was not even the match director) conducted the safety meeting. Prior to the match, he went around and painted knives or guns on ALL threat targets with MOST of them right around the -0 /-1 perforation somewhere. He then stated in the meeting that any hits (full circumference) on the black paint of the guns/knives would be scored hard cover/misses.

There was debate on his interpretation of the rule book (pg 47). I say, even if a bullet were to hit a gun/knife, it would still do some damage to the target. Anyway, has anyone ever encountered this nonsense before.

The MD didn't even score his squad that way, but I was unfortunate to wind up in the goofballs squad. The results of the match nil, as everyone in my squad his multiple black paint throughout the day.

Just wondering, thanks.

[J-Ho]

As long as the 'hardcover' was the same for everybody, what's the problem? If it wasn't the same, then the problem is with the SO's and not the hardcover. We have done something similar and were very care to apply the same standards to both squads. As far as having a PITA little hardcover in the middle of the target, I wasn't a big fan, but it is a game and and the challenge is what I like about it.

[Round_Gun_Shooter]

Read page 47 of the rule book under threat/no threat designation. It is a very nice idea to paint the threat target with a gun/knife etc but having it as hard cover is just plain Bunny crap. If this person is truly an IDPA SO, I suggest he/she take another course.

Edited April 29, 2008 by Round_Gun_Shooter

[HighVelocity]

I see it a lot. Black painted weapons = hard cover and scored as misses when hit. It's silly, but it's common.

[bruce282]

Unless they are using vinyl stickons as target indicators, there most likely is a fuzzy border around the painted on gun/knife. Since IDPA don't use no stinking overlays, it might be hard to score, plus how do you paste it when it's an irregular border so that the next shooter has the same COF as the last one.

Bruce

[PJONES5]

Poor Stage Design.

We use lots of Hard Cover and always use black tape to give a clean edge to score.

Our club paints weapons also but do not use them as hardcover,I would rather use shirts with paper cutouts of a gun or knife.

At our club close calls always goes to the shooter,so I try to make it easy and clear to score the targets.

Just my opinion, it's worth what you paid for it.

pat

[Jim Watson]

This is all new to me; I have been seeing "threat indicator as hard cover" on the net for the last several days. But never on a range in my area.

[Hot Brass]

This is all new to me; I have been seeing "threat indicator as hard cover" on the net for the last several days. But never on a range in my area.

Same goes for me.

[Joe4d]

Just remember no matter how bad it gets it could allways be worse. I shot a match where you had to yell, Drop the knife or drop the gun or not say anything depending on whether the target had a black knife, gun or was a normal target, not yelling the right thing or yelling when you werent supposed to before shooting was a procedural.

[-JQ-]

Just remember no matter how bad it gets it could allways be worse. I shot a match where you had to yell, Drop the knife or drop the gun or not say anything depending on whether the target had a black knife, gun or was a normal target, not yelling the right thing or yelling when you werent supposed to before shooting was a procedural.

I'm too busy talking to myself and my gun to bother with yelling the right thing...unless "FRONT SITE" is what you're supposed to yell at people.

[HighVelocity]

Just remember no matter how bad it gets it could allways be worse. I shot a match where you had to yell, Drop the knife or drop the gun or not say anything depending on whether the target had a black knife, gun or was a normal target, not yelling the right thing or yelling when you werent supposed to before shooting was a procedural.

I'm too busy talking to myself and my gun to bother with yelling the right thing...unless "FRONT SITE" is what you're supposed to yell at people.

When I shoot falling plates I yell, GET DOWN GET DOWN!! It helps.

[Jim Watson]

Just remember no matter how bad it gets it could allways be worse. I shot a match where you had to yell, Drop the knife or drop the gun or not say anything depending on whether the target had a black knife, gun or was a normal target, not yelling the right thing or yelling when you werent supposed to before shooting was a procedural.

I know one guy who goes to a lot of gunfighting schools who always challenges the target as he goes for his gun, but to require it on the CoF is just weird.

Was the "challenge" on the clock?

Even the Cowboy shooters, while they still have lines to say at the start of the stage, no longer do it on the clock.

[ajackb]

I think the idea is get you doing something other than standing with hands relaxed at your side running the stage through your head......4 targets, reload, etc. I used a dead cell phone on one stage and had the shooters dial 911 then stow the phone when they heard the start signal that represented a gun shot. Most seemed to like the stage.

[longrange2]

I've never seen a threat indicator scored as hardcover/miss in the matches I have shot. I do like stages that give you something to do at the start as part of the scenario, for example starting with something in your hands, etc. I shot a stage last week where the first target had to be engaged with a "taser" (rubber band gun). Adds some fun to a stage.

[Ted Murphy]

I paint guns and knives on targets from time to time. I do not score them as hardcover though. I have shot matches where they did and I always thought it a bit difficult to score fairly.

At the 1998 nationals they had a shotgun that was made from steel plate across one of the targets. I liked that. Real hard cover.

Ted

[Bones]

I have seen and shot it both ways.

Take heart - that type of enthusiasm has a pretty short life span.

Craig

[J-Ho]

If you don't like the stage design, design your own. We have a sign up board where different people can sign up to set up stages. A lot of the same people are involved, but sometimes someone will come in with something completely different. You get weird stuff from time to time, but if we did the same thing every week it would get pretty boring.

[Joe4d]

The stage I mentioned the yelling drop the gun/knife wasnt just at the beginning it was the whole stage of 9 targets. You had to say or not say something before each target.

[Greg Bell]

If children or ladies are present don't ask me to yell at targets.

[kdmoore]

on an almost related thought, I remember noticing that painting a weapon on the lower part of the target seemed to attrack low hits, but that was a while back.

Around here weapons aren't used often (lately). And I don't remember ever seeing them declared hard cover.

[rvb]

As long as ... was the same for everybody, what's the problem?

From page 51 of the rule book:

One of the most commonly heard statements about poor course design is “Well, it is the same for everyone”. Please do not use the phrase “it is the same for everyone,” to use stages that trivialize the purpose of IDPA or that are not really practical. Claiming that it will be the same for everyone is a lame way of rationalizing a poor stage or course of fire. Anyone using the line “it is the same foreveryone” to justify a tactically unsound stage should not be allowed to run or design any stages of fire in IDPA. Mistakes will be made in IDPA, but allowing poor course designs to flourish will lead to the demise of IDPA quicker than any other factor.

-rvb

Edited May 7, 2008 by Duane Thomas

[Duane Thomas]

Please do not use the phrase “it is the same for everyone,”

Of course, this is not a phrase, it's a complete sentence.

Sorry, the "I make my living as a writer" gene kicked in.

[kdmoore]

IMO, rule book isn't speaking to this case. It is the same for everyone can be said for all stages. Was it said to justify poor stage design? Was it inpractical (against the spirit of IDPA)? I'd say no. Was it difficult, would it justify an extra shot or maybe chosing a headshot instead? Sure.

And I'd guess it might be tough to administer (the problem of dealing with edges on the weapon).

The stage at the nationals where you had to shoot the legs drew some criticism, and folks said "it's the same for everyone". And it was deemed ok, likely because it wasn't poor stage design or impractical.

IMO, the rule book is to keep silly stages from becoming prevalent.

Anyone want to start a thread entitled "Silliest stages you've seen" ....?

[rvb]

The stage at the nationals where you had to shoot the legs drew some criticism, and folks said "it's the same for everyone". And it was deemed ok, likely because it wasn't poor stage design or impractical.

Yes, There's a difference between silliness and a shooting challenge (ie the small "leg" targets at nats). Whenever I see silliness like the knife/gun is hardcover and hear the "it's the same" arguement, I wonder if it really IS the same for everyone?? As targets were replaced was the hardcover in exactly the same place on the target every time? Were the lines crisp on all those targets to prevent a fuzzy spray-paint border that makes scoring calls subjective? Were the hardcover edges the same after it had been pasted a dozen times?

IMO, the rule book is to keep silly stages from becoming prevalent.

agreed.

-rvb