Scoring Shotgun clays

[Religious Shooter]

How do you figure it would be a cluster F?

It's used right now at the local matches here. If there's a discrepancy between the shooter and the RO the peanut gallery is polled and a consensus is reached. I haven't seen any problems with it.

[M ammo]

How do you figure it would be a cluster F?

It's used right now at the local matches here. If there's a discrepancy between the shooter and the RO the peanut gallery is polled and a consensus is reached. I haven't seen any problems with it.

that is a good example,,,::""" of a True Example of Good Sportsmanship. Must be applied."""

Jim M ammo

[bigbrowndog]

What is correct, in the peanut gallery. 9 people say, I didn't see a hit, and 1 saying yes it did, I'm positive.

the shooter gets the hit!!! or The shooter takes a miss!!!

if its a concensus, the shooter would have a miss. Just because 9 didn't see anything doesn't mean he missed, it just means they didn't see it.

i've had that happen several times in Steel Challenge matches simply because the spectators/RO's didn't know which plate the shooter was engaging and what the order was or if they went back and made up a miss quicker than they could follow. which is why plates are painted for every shooter, and if there is an APPEAL to a call it can simply be checked, by the shooter and RO walking downrange and checking.

trapr

[bigbrowndog]

What is correct, in the peanut gallery. 9 people say, I didn't see a hit, and 1 saying yes it did, I'm positive.

the shooter gets the hit!!! or The shooter takes a miss!!!

if its a concensus, the shooter would have a miss. Just because 9 didn't see anything doesn't mean he missed, it just means they didn't see it.

i've had that happen several times in Steel Challenge matches simply because the spectators/RO's didn't know which plate the shooter was engaging and what the order was or if they went back and made up a miss quicker than they could follow. which is why plates are painted for every shooter, and if there is an APPEAL to a call it can simply be checked, by the shooter and RO walking downrange and checking.

trapr

[Religious Shooter]

I'm not really feeling what you are saying. The Steel Challenge type matches around here utilize steel affixed to spring/suspension sytem where you see if it was hit. They are usually painted and you can see the hits after the fact. And of course you hear them. I haven't seen a big problem there either.

And if you watch a shooter shoot three poppers and the corresponding flipped birds... It's pretty obvious which bird he is shooting at. And if you get down to it... it doesn't really matter what he is shooting at... what matters is if he hits it or not. And seeing the hits as a spotter is even easier to do.

[bigbrowndog]

RS, See if you can feel this, if I could put it in terms you could understand I would. The analogy of the Steel Challenge, was simply to illustrate how different matches achieve FAIR practices in order to eliminate JUDGEMENT calls.

As to seeing which target is being shot at by the shooter and making a FAIR call, apparently YOU are the one exception to ALL. Shooter speed and transitions tend to be faster than a lot of RO's, can keep up with.

I understand you are more concerned with being able to see your misses than your targets so dealing with this topic is probably a bit confusing for you, it deals with seeing your hits on the target.

Trapr

[kellyn]

I wonder how they can even keep score in skeet, sporting clays, and trap???

I'm fully comfortable letting the RO call whether or not a clay target is hit.

[kurtm]

OOOOOOH!! Let me R.O. you Kelly, LET ME!!! .......NAH that was just the wad!! KURTM

[bigbrowndog]

That comment I expect from the guy that trains his RO's to call hits on his steel for him

Kel, I realize you're probably doing some pot stirring, but I hope you realize that the centrifugal force applied by the rapid spinning does aid in the clay coming apart. Also that there are actually about 3-6 pairs of eyes looking for any trace of a hit and they generally do not have to transition to another target, nor does the RO have to worry about the shooter moving to another shooting location while his eyes are on the target.

All I'm saying is that IMO, targets that require judgment calls to determine whether it was neutralized or not should not have penalties assigned to them, and they should be used sparingly in major matches.

Enough said about that.

Trapr

[D.Hayden]

It's even easier in trap and skeet.. the birds are flying very predictably.. not tossed 'willy nilliy' up by a flip target.

The off balance motion from the start, makes it hard to detect the hit.

[Religious Shooter]

But is it so much harder that you would restrict it's use?

[kellyn]

- Kurt, I would be more than happy to let you RO me.

- BerKim, that's a good point. Plus the fact that the RO is supposed to be watching the shooter/gun as the shooter goes through the course of fire.

- Trapr, I actually put on a clinic teaching ROs to spot for me. Rule 1: when Kelly fires a shot, you call "hit." It's really easy.

- But my point is that there is a fully mature series of sports (much older than 3 gun by the way) which rely on range officials calling whether or not clays targets are busted. I, for one, would like to see more of a sporting clays-style theme for the shotgun in 3 gun, simply because I find it more fun and challenging than simply mowing down a bunch of poppers. However, under current USPSA scoring, a clay bird must be a disappearing target, of course that need not be the case with outlaw 3 gun.

[outerlimits]

- But my point is that there is a fully mature series of sports (much older than 3 gun by the way) which rely on range officials calling whether or not clays targets are busted. I, for one, would like to see more of a sporting clays-style theme for the shotgun in 3 gun, simply because I find it more fun and challenging than simply mowing down a bunch of poppers. However, under current USPSA scoring, a clay bird must be a disappearing target, of course that need not be the case with outlaw 3 gun.

kelly-the "outlaw" match rules can get ugly on clays. if you shoot at 5 dogs, they treat flying clays as disappearing IF you engage them. couple years ago they had a stage with 3 flying clays, worth 10 pts each, activated by poppers. hosed the poppers in order, went to engage the clays and had a feed problem-resulting in 90 penalty points.

[RiggerJJ]

Most Outlaw matches are taking the stance of;

1. must be engaged in the air to avoid FTE.

2. 5 seconds miss penalty instead of 10

So that kinda makes it a partially disapearing target...that has to be engaged...

Done properly, the clock RO may watch as best he can without shirking his primary duties, but the other RO (or someone else) should be the primary "hit caller" on flying clays. Done properly, its fairness will be NO DIFFERENT than a clays sport. I shoot this game, and skeet and SC, and its much harder for me as a shooter to "call" my hit in 3gun than in a clays game, probably because I when I pull the trigger on a flying clay in 3gun, I am no longer concerned about it, I am more concerned about what is next in my plan!

bottom line is, outlaw matches will use em, and do their best to be fair about hit calls. Its no different than calling hits on a long range flash target.

jj

[StealthyBlagga]

...I still do not see a CLEAR and CONCISE answer to my concerns, there may not be one, if so then i feel targets of those type should be used very sparingly in a large match, where Fair and Equal must prevail.

I concur. While I enjoy shooting flying clays as much as the next guy, they cannot be scored fairly (either under IMGA or IPSC rules) and so I would prefer to see them deleted from practical shooting competition. If people want to shoot flying clays, the world is awash with trap, skeet and sporting clays shooting venues.

Edited May 21, 2008 by StealthyBlagga