Scoring Shotgun clays

[jbullgpd]

So I am putting on a multigun match and the range we use has skeet towers on the long rifle bay. I wanted to incorporate these towers throwing clays during a stage. How do I score them per USPSA?

[tightloop]

Break em and it is a hit, miss em and it isn't...

[bigbrowndog]

How do you handle an arbitration for an unhit flying clay??????????????

this isn't sporting clays, we have arbitration for targets and penalties. I've seen all kinds of answers but none that were official for the association, just from match directors and thier matches, and i believe none were USPSA matches.

I didn't mean to hijack this thread, but its a question that needs an official answer.

Trapr

[jbullgpd]

I agree, I have shot several matches with the clay flippers on the knock down steel and I have seen them as bonus, hit counts but no mike or you get a mike. I'm trying to see what the USPSA answer is or is it not possible in USPSA rules.....

ANYONE?

Edited April 20, 2008 by jbullgpd

[Chris]

This is from the USPSA shotgun rules:

4.4 Frangible Targets

4.4.1 Frangible targets, such as clay pigeons or tiles, may be used in USPSA

Shotgun matches.

4.4.1.1 Frangible targets must break with a visible piece missing or separated

from the original target to be counted for score.

4.4.1.2 Frangible flying targets will be scored at 10 point value with an

option of 20 point value should the MD choose, and are to be

considered disappeared once they land.

[jbullgpd]

Thanks a bunch

[bigbrowndog]

So if I read that correctly.........You need to engage them, but if you miss, its a disappearing target and you will receive no penalty????????????? or you don't have to engage them and you will receive no penalty?????????????

Trapr

[jbullgpd]

From this thread and one in the rules forum you can run it two ways:

Regular rules no penalty but you can make their point value worth it, 20 points per.

Or with the new rules in time/plus it is a penalty, +10 sec miss and FTE +5

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=64021

[AlamoShooter]

I only got ...one point for hitting them in Sporting Clays

[bigbrowndog]

yeah, yeah yeah, welcome to playing with the BIG boys. Oh and quit flirting with other people's wives/girlfriends or I'm telling!!!!!!

If you think Dakota gets upset when you flirt with other dogs, I can only imagine what Linda would do..................................probably nuthin'

Trapr

[kurtm]

Trapr has a point that needs to be addressed, how do we arbitrate the hit? Say the shooter sees a couple of pellts hit the clay (remember one pellet hole counts a a hit ) and the R.O. is looking down at the uneven groound at the second of the shot, He doesn't see the VERY SLIGHT wobble and puff of clay dust fly off, but does see the clay continue on! Where is the process?? I hit it! no you didn't! get the Range Master!, well he can't do anything!...etc....etc. so how do we really arbitrate this?? KURTM

[M ammo]

Trapr has a point that needs to be addressed, how do we arbitrate the hit? Say the shooter sees a couple of pellts hit the clay (remember one pellet hole counts a a hit ) and the R.O. is looking down at the uneven groound at the second of the shot, He doesn't see the VERY SLIGHT wobble and puff of clay dust fly off, but does see the clay continue on! Where is the process?? I hit it! no you didn't! get the Range Master!, well he can't do anything!...etc....etc. so how do we really arbitrate this?? KURTM

More than one set of eye's watching. I know then it could be a cluster committee.

Kind of like, the spotter on long range steel, one guy would have to be the judge.

And a True Example of Good Sportsmanship. Must be applied.

Jim M ammo

[wide45]

Trapr has a point that needs to be addressed, how do we arbitrate the hit? Say the shooter sees a couple of pellts hit the clay (remember one pellet hole counts a a hit ) and the R.O. is looking down at the uneven groound at the second of the shot, He doesn't see the VERY SLIGHT wobble and puff of clay dust fly off, but does see the clay continue on! Where is the process?? I hit it! no you didn't! get the Range Master!, well he can't do anything!...etc....etc. so how do we really arbitrate this?? KURTM

Under USPSA rules, you can't arb the scoring of a target. You are stuck with whatever it was called when you shot at it. Same as rifle flash targets.

[bigbrowndog]

wide 45, do you have the rule that states that, because I know pistol targets get the range master and match directors attention all the time, as well as the CRO.

Trapr

[mlmiller1]

4.4.1.1 Frangible targets must break with a visible piece missing or separated

from the original target to be counted for score.

It doesn't say a hit or pellet hole, it says a piece missing or seperated. It would probably not be best to use flying ones in a big match just for that reason. Too hard to prove(or disprove) hits for certain. Nobody is perfect & R.O.s could make a mistake. If it were me & I was absolutely positive I hit it, I'd ask for a reshoot or if I were r.o., I'd give one. One problem with most of us pistol shooters is we aren't familiar with seeing a wad in the air. To some new folks, that could look like a piece of the bird.

MLM

[Religious Shooter]

I shot two big matches last year at the same range. One match had zero flippers and the other match had a bazillion flippers.

The match that had a bazillion flippers was CLEARLY the better match.

I mean ultimately... isn't it about fun?

[wide45]

wide 45, do you have the rule that states that, because I know pistol targets get the range master and match directors attention all the time, as well as the CRO.

Trapr

Requesting the CRO, or RM score the target, is not the same as filing a request for arbitration.

If the CRO/RM can't be shown the target, they will tell you that the RO's score stands.

9.6.4 Any challenge to a score or penalty must be appealed to the Range

Officer by the competitor (or his delegate) prior to the subject target

being painted, patched, or reset, failing which such challenges will not

be accepted.

9.6.5 In the event that the Range Officer upholds the original score or penal-

ty and the competitor is dissatisfied, he may appeal to the Chief Range

Officer and then to the Range Master for a ruling.

9.6.6 The Range Master’s ruling will be final. No further appeals are allowed

with respect to the scoring decision.

Copied from the Shotgun Rules, which happen to be the same as pistol.

Edited May 4, 2008 by wide45

[bigbrowndog]

In my world Appeal and arbitrate are synonyms. sorry for the confusion,

Where does it state in the rules that you cannot appeal a flying clay, and if you can how would on earth can a FAIR assessment be made, regarding a piece missing amongst all the broken pieces laying on the ground.

my point being that, while they may be FUN, it is next to impossible to be FAIR, if a target cannot be looked at and scrutinized fairly and objectively by more than one RO. Then there should not be a penalty assigned to the target.

trapr

[M ammo]

In my world Appeal and arbitrate are synonyms. sorry for the confusion,

Where does it state in the rules that you cannot appeal a flying clay, and if you can how would on earth can a FAIR assessment be made, regarding a piece missing amongst all the broken pieces laying on the ground.

my point being that, while they may be FUN, it is next to impossible to be FAIR, if a target cannot be looked at and scrutinized fairly and objectively by more than one RO. Then there should not be a penalty assigned to the target.

trapr

I say this half joking, why don’t we shoot at white metal disks that same size as a clay.

That way you can always see the result,, just like the black and what angle iron,, up at Tac Pro,,, that is a No S_____ hit or miss?

Jim Mammo

[bigbrowndog]

Actually Jim, I am trying to come up with something like that that could be used and examined after the shot to see if pellets hit the target, the only trick is telling the difference between the impact with the ground and pellet strikes.

If the target is painted every time as it should be then it should be easy to determine pellet strikes, its just the ground impact that is questionable. it would also alleviate having to buy cases and cases of clays, which can get expensive.

Trapr

[M ammo]

Actually Jim, I am trying to come up with something like that that could be used and examined after the shot to see if pellets hit the target, the only trick is telling the difference between the impact with the ground and pellet strikes.

If the target is painted every time as it should be then it should be easy to determine pellet strikes, its just the ground impact that is questionable. it would also alleviate having to buy cases and cases of clays, which can get expensive.

Trapr

Might even get some sound, out of it? when hit. somthing to play with, pellet hits are very telling,,

Jim

[wide45]

How do you feel about flash targets for long range rifle?

It amounts to the same thing, the target can't be scored after the stage.

[kurtm]

Widebody, whether they can or can't, I don't know. I do know at the last Multi-gun Nationals a reshoot was given to a top shooter based on a hit on the steel and splash from the bullet cleaning the paint off the bolt head. The targets were painted for each shooter, and this one just gripped and moaned that EACH flash target had been hit at least twice, most 3 times ( bolt head top and bottom and the hit) but the R.O.s only called hit once and that was why his time was sooo slooow. He even went as far as saying "see I hit each one right here as he pointed to the bolts and here as he pointed to the acctual hit. How do I know?? I was helping to paint the steel, and the R.O. didn't know better. Shouldn't have happened, but the R.O. had never delt with flash targets before, so in this case Yes they WERE arbitrated/contested..or what ever other name you whant to use.

As for clays a pellet hole does "Break" the bird and hence IS a break! The part the pellet breaks out is a "missing piece" and the material is seperated from the complete clay bird, no where in the rules does it state a size limt on the "missing or seperated" peice! so now prove I didn't hit it! Remember the benifit goes to the shooter...or has that been legislated away also?? KurtM

[bigbrowndog]

Flash targets at least have something to show you that it was hit and RO's tend to use binoculars, however I have seen and been told that when a bullet skips off the ground and activates the "flash" that it does not count as a hit!!!!!! my opinion is that if the target "flashes" its a hit no matter what caused it to flash, i have also seen RO's say "oh no that wasn't a hit he's shooting 308 if he had hit it, it would have really flashed BIG????????? apparently 308's cannot give edge hits??????????????

I'm sorry but was the target hit? if it had been a knock down target and had been knocked down would it not count as a hit?

We have hijacked this thread, but I still do not see a CLEAR and CONCISE answer to my concerns, there may not be one, if so then i feel targets of those type should be used very sparingly in a large match, where Fair and Equal must prevail.

Trapr

Edited May 5, 2008 by bigbrowndog

[scirocco38s]

Trapr has a point that needs to be addressed, how do we arbitrate the hit? Say the shooter sees a couple of pellts hit the clay (remember one pellet hole counts a a hit ) and the R.O. is looking down at the uneven groound at the second of the shot, He doesn't see the VERY SLIGHT wobble and puff of clay dust fly off, but does see the clay continue on! Where is the process?? I hit it! no you didn't! get the Range Master!, well he can't do anything!...etc....etc. so how do we really arbitrate this?? KURTM

More than one set of eye's watching. I know then it could be a cluster committee.

Kind of like, the spotter on long range steel, one guy would have to be the judge.

And a True Example of Good Sportsmanship. Must be applied.

Jim M ammo

It would be a cluster alright, just not a cluster committee.