Subgun technique

[rtr]

Well my HK sear finally arrived for my previously fake MP5.

In shooting it I have a hard time keeping the rounds in the A zone for longer bursts, gun tends to drift right and up. Anyone have tips on technique for controlling the gun better on auto?

Also I tried running the timer as I shot it and for a 30 round mag dump it only picked up about 14 rounds, with a time of 2.something. The splits were .11-.15, are the real splits just too fast for the clock or what?

[StealthyBlagga]

Shooting a subgun requires a very aggressive, weight-forward stance. This is particularly true for the MP5, which seems less controllable to me compared with my open-bolt subgun. The MP5 is also harder to control because of the high rate of fire. Just be grateful that your MP5 runs 100%... a truly reliable civilian MP5 is a rarity in my experience.

As for your question about timing your subgun, the problem with many shot timers is that they are not so good at resolving very short time intervals. For many subguns, shot timers cannot even reliably count the number of rounds fired because the sound of successive shots can merge together or be confounded by echos. Although split times are a common feature on shot timers, they are not a very reliable number and so extrapolating from them can be unwise.

The best way to measure your ROF on any shot timer is as follows:

1) Load your mag up to max capacity (say 30 rounds). Make a note of how many rounds you actually loaded; we'll call this NUMBER_OF_SHOTS.

2) Load and make ready to fire. Set the selector to "auto" (duh).

3) Press the "start" button on your timer. It will beep indicating that the clock is running.

4) Wait a few seconds, then fire off the entire magazine load as a single burst. Its very important to fire the entire mag without interruption. The gun must end up empty, with all the rounds you loaded having been fired.

5) Make a note of the time (in seconds, to two decimal places) to the last shot fired. We'll call this LAST_SHOT_TIME.

6) Using the review function of the shot timer, make a note of the time (in seconds, to two decimal places) of the first shot fired. We'll call this FIRST_SHOT_TIME.

7) Now you can calculate the ROF, in rounds-per-minute, using the following formula:

RATE_OF_FIRE = 60 X (NUMBER_OF_SHOTS - 1) / (LAST_SHOT_TIME - FIRST_SHOT_TIME)

For example, you load 30 rounds in the mag, the first shot is registered by the shot timer as 2.53 seconds, and the last shot is registered as 4.26 seconds. Your ROF is:

60 x (30-1) / (4.26-2.53) = 1006rpm

Hope this helps.

[Chills1994]

I just run mine with a suppressor on the end. The can makes a good muzzle brake/comp.

Of course then, the downside is that the timer has a hard time just picking up the bolt cycling back and forth.

[-JQ-]

Well my HK sear finally arrived for my previously fake MP5.

In shooting it I have a hard time keeping the rounds in the A zone for longer bursts, gun tends to drift right and up. Anyone have tips on technique for controlling the gun better on auto?

Also I tried running the timer as I shot it and for a 30 round mag dump it only picked up about 14 rounds, with a time of 2.something. The splits were .11-.15, are the real splits just too fast for the clock or what?

First Congrats!! It is a great feeling when Uncle Sam says you area a "good dude"

I suggest a class from Tom at HKPro.com. He is the board owner there screen name hkpro. He offers classes on the MP5 throughout the country. I took his class last year and it was awesome. He put us throught the MP5 Operators course, he can't call it that as he's no longer affliated with HK professionally.

We learned how to shoot it (I thought I knew...wrong), stoppages, transferring from subgun to sidearm...and back, moving drills, trigger drills (1,2,3 shot bursts while on F). He showed us that a full 30 round mag can be dumped into 3 inch target...saw it with my own two eyes...still can't do that one myself.

Sidenote-one girl in the class was pulling single shots from F all day, to the point where he had to keep checking she wasn't in "E" - single shot selection...she just got it somehow...I can pull 2 and 3, but 1...still working on that.

Plan on about ~800 rds for subgun and ~200 sidearm.

Tom is a really good guy and VERY informed. Currently Chief of Police and SWAT for many years in MO. He is also a great instructor in addition to being a guru on the MP5.

Rounds going up and right are typical of Right handers. You'll work this out in class but the short answer is use the weak hand to pull the gun straight back into your chest not just proping up the far end of the gun...and shoot with shoulders squared to the target, not bladed like you would shoot a hunting rifle.

IIRC the class was around $250 but that may have changed. I will probably take it again as a refresher.

www.hkpro.com - is a great resource for tons of HK info...and parts from the boards there.

Good luck - maybe I'll see you in a match?!

Joel

PS - the Civi-problematic MP5's tend to be clones...pony up and buy HK ;-)

[latewatch]

"Shooting a subgun requires a very aggressive, weight-forward stance." (What Stealthy said)

Trigger Control.... fire 2 to 3 round burst, repeat as necessary. 30 round dumps are good for nothing but wasting ammo.

[ERIC]

Lean forward and hang on.

Plate_Rack.wmv

[Bear1142]

Rounds going up and right are typical of Right handers. You'll work this out in class but the short answer is use the weak hand to pull the gun straight back into your chest not just proping up the far end of the gun...and shoot with shoulders squared to the target, not bladed like you would shoot a hunting rifle.

Kinda like this?

Erik

Edited April 23, 2008 by Bear1142

[Tommy Tran]

Rounds going up and right are typical of Right handers. You'll work this out in class but the short answer is use the weak hand to pull the gun straight back into your chest not just proping up the far end of the gun...and shoot with shoulders squared to the target, not bladed like you would shoot a hunting rifle.

Kinda like this?

Erik

LOL that was expensive

Peace

[Justin]

Also I tried running the timer as I shot it and for a 30 round mag dump it only picked up about 14 rounds, with a time of 2.something. The splits were .11-.15, are the real splits just too fast for the clock or what?

As I understand it, most shot timers aren't fast enough to be able to differentiate between shots. However, I believe that the PACT Mk. IV has a full-auto setting.

[Garrett]

7) Now you can calculate the ROF, in rounds-per-minute, using the following formula:

RATE_OF_FIRE = 60 X (NUMBER_OF_SHOTS - 1) / (LAST_SHOT_TIME - FIRST_SHOT_TIME)

Well done! This is the first time I've seen someone post that formula correctly. They usually miss that "-1" which gives faster-than-actual times.

This is correct, as we are counting the number of cycles between shots (does that make sense?), which will be the number of shots minus 1.

[MiniUzi]

An article on the subject on subgun shooting that I wrote a few months ago can be found here http://bullethose.com/2011/09/28/shoot-smarter-not-harder/ . Subgun shooting is like golf really, stance and posture are critical and you can only do so much by sheer force and muscle alone.

[whistlepig]

It's been said before, but stance, stance, stance.

[DyNo!]

Shooting a few thousand rounds of 7.62 will quickly correct any problems you have with form, stance, or lack of holes in the ceiling :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SjXe4Dk4lQA

Edited November 14, 2011 by DyNo!

[Jadeslade]

M14 not a subgun. Good gun though. There is a reason H-K MP5's are so valued.

[Jadeslade]

.

Edited November 14, 2011 by Jadeslade

[SMSI]

You can get singles on an MP-5 reliabily. It just takes some practice. Also, the triggers are not all the same. Except compared to a good AR tigger they are all bad. Keep practicing. It shouldn't take too long (but lots of ammo) before you can take down a plate rack, with fast singles, on full auto. And a vertical foregrip should help with the muzzle rise. I have a B&T fore end that is a lot more solid than stock and that helps too.

[-JQ-]

To pull singles on MP5 in FA I was taught to use the second joint of your trigger finger...I could pull 2s and 3s but singles were tough...not enough training time I'm sure. But I've seen it done consistently.

[SMSI]

I agree that you should put a lot of finger on it. also get the thumb all the way around the back of the grip. More of a squeeze/twitch than a slap.

[blaster113]

try centering the butt of the subgun as close to your centerline as possible. then with your shooting hand on the grip try clocking it downwards while shooting, it helped alot when practicing bursts with the M4's

[Stlhead]

Also try humming the theme to S.W.A.T. while manipulating the weapon. It will help you into the aggressive stance required.

[Braxton1]

A method that I teach is similar to that espoused above: Square up to the target and get the butt of the gun as close to the centerline of your body (that puts the buttplate directly over your sternum). Extend and lock out the reaction-side arm and hook the thumb around the back of the front sight post. A little forward lean is all that it takes and you're done.

Although an un-sighted technique, good accuracy can be had at "interior" distances (7-8 yards) just by feel.

Since recoil is coming into the centerline, the upper body and gun will not have a tendency to rotate to the right. The locked out reaction-side arm ensures that all of that slight forward lean is actually transmitted to the gun, getting your weight truly behind it.

With this technique, you can walk bullets around on the target anywhere you want 'em.