LLC for getting a silencer

[toddrod]

I have been reading and hearing lately about people who start a LLC or trust in order to go around having to get the local Sheriff to sign off on that person getting a silencer. Could someone please explain to me how this works? Why would just starting a LLC or trust let you bypass this step. What happens to the silencer when you die if it is listed as being property of the LLC or trust.

I do not plan on getting a silencer, but this subject has peaked my interest. Can anyone please help with an explaination?

[j2fast]

I am not an expert by any means, nor am I a lawyer but my understanding is that if you buy a class III item as an individual then you are the only one that can have access to it. If you buy a class III item under a trust or LLC my understanding is that with the item in the name of the trust/llc that other "officers" in the LLC or beneficiaries in the trust are allowed access/use of the class III item.

This is just what I've gleaned doing some cursory research on possible making a class III purchase. While the not having to submit paper work to the sheriff part of correct, I was personally more interested in making it easier on my spouse/heirs should something happen to me. My understanding of owning it as an individual was that if I died my spouse/heirs could not legally take possession of the class III item without having it transfered and paying for the stamps.

I'm sure someone else smarter than me will come along with better info.

ETA: I've actually been considering trying to find an attorney with an understanding of class III purchases for definitive answers but have yet to look into it further.

Edited March 5, 2008 by j2fast

[tightloop]

If you ever attempt to get one, the term is "supressor"...silencer has an evil connotation with the Feds...

[Middle Man]

If you ever attempt to get one, the term is "supressor"...silencer has an evil connotation with the Feds...

And technically speaking, the noise is only suppressed not silenced. If you use super sonic ammo in a suppressed firearm you still hear the sonic crack...

And yes, as I understand the issue, a Trust or LLC enables you to pass those items to an heir.

Edited March 5, 2008 by Middle Man

[Patrick Sweeney]

Not that I want to steer you towards the competition, but Small Arms Review is the place to go for this kind of info. Two issues ago or so, their resident legal eagle covered just this subject.

From what I recall, one big advantage to a Trust or other instrument is that it bypasses the local law enforcement signature requirement. So, if your local Chief or Sheriff won't sign, you get a Trust and you're golden.

[rvb]

If you ever attempt to get one, the term is "supressor"...silencer has an evil connotation with the Feds...

Why? "Silencer" is the term used on the ATF forms for purchasing//transfering a silencer. I put "silencer" on all my 5320.20 forms (Application to transport interstate). "Silencer" is on my form 4. ATF documents refer to them as "silencer" as does the Nat. Firearms Act.

Silencer/Supressor, potato/potAto IMO.

I've never done a corp purchase, but they do see nice in that you don't have to bother with fingerprints or your local law enforcement signoff. And anyone named as an "officer" or whatever can posess the NFA toy. To pass along the item to next of kin just name them in the corp and no tax to transfer, etc. Downside is you have to keep the paperwork for the LLC current, annual cost, etc. However, if the owner is an individual and not a corp, it is possible for the heir to take posession w/o paying the tax, so it's just a matter of when paperwork, annually or when you bite the dust.

-rvb

[rtr]

The law and ATF rules governing NFA items allow individual persons, trusts or corporate entities to own NFA items. If you purchase an NFA item as an individual you have to submit fingerprints and have your local chief law enforcement officer sign off on your request (problem is that many will not sign off and they don't have to have a reason to not sign off). In addition once you posess said item you are the only person allowed to legally posess the item, so if someone else has physical control of the item that is a problem. So if you have a wife who lives in your home and has access to the item while you are not home you could get in trouble.

There are positives and negatives to forming a trust or corporate entity (such as an LLC) to own these items. For most individuals it is my opinion that a trust is the best option. You do not have to have your CLEO sign off, and you don't have to submit fingerprints. In most states a trust does not have to be registered with the gov't and doesn't require any annual fee to the gov't as well. In addition you can have yourself and your wife as trustees and then you can both legally posess it (as long as you both can legally posess an NFA item otherwise). A trust and accompanying will can allow you to control what happens to your NFA items after your death, and pass them on to your heirs without a transfer tax.

The potential for abuse of this system exists and recently there have been a lot of people forming trusts using quicken willmaker that may be less than optimal. In addition there have been instances of people naming friends and others as officers of a corporation solely so that they can use the NFA items, a situation that could get them in trouble.

So in my opinion if you plan to form a trust or corporate entity to own NFA items you would be well served to have a competent attorney do it. The afforementioned expert at Small Arms Review is Mark Barnes an attorney in D.C., in my experience he does a very good job and is very knowledgable of the NFA and the ATF.

[Flatland Shooter]

Does going the "trust" or the "LLC" route allow the purchase of the post 1986 Class III weapons? Or are they only permitted to be purchased by dealers with a Class III license?

Thanks.

Bill

[Rob Boudrie]

Does going the "trust" or the "LLC" route allow the purchase of the post 1986 Class III weapons?

No. Unless you are a manufacturer and pay the special occupational tax ($500/year), the only way you can get post 86 full auto is as "dealer samples" for demonstration to qualified government agencies. The catch is that you need a "demo request letter" from the agency asking for a demonstration of the specific model firearm and, at least here in the DPRM (Massachusetts), it is not uncommon for small town police departments to get the occasional letter from the very small dealer trying to get a "demo letter" - requests which are routinely discarded since departments don't have to go to small one man operations to buy their cool stuff. So, chances are you won't get a "demo letter" unless you have some sort of connection.

[JasonK]

Does going the "trust" or the "LLC" route allow the purchase of the post 1986 Class III weapons?

No. Unless you are a manufacturer and pay the special occupational tax ($500/year), the only way you can get post 86 full auto is as "dealer samples" for demonstration to qualified government agencies. The catch is that you need a "demo request letter" from the agency asking for a demonstration of the specific model firearm and, at least here in the DPRM (Massachusetts), it is not uncommon for small town police departments to get the occasional letter from the very small dealer trying to get a "demo letter" - requests which are routinely discarded since departments don't have to go to small one man operations to buy their cool stuff. So, chances are you won't get a "demo letter" unless you have some sort of connection.

It also better be a real letter because the ATF has gotten VERY serious about checking with the agency that has supposedly requested the demo. BTW, you do not have to pay the tranfer tax in a valid inheritance situation. If your wife can legally possess the NFA item then all it takes is the paperwork. Your brother in law would probably not get the same consideration. One never can tell with the ATF, though. It seems like the rules change every time you do something the tiniest bit out of the ordinary. It also seems to make a big difference with which examiner you have.

[Hank Ellis]

I set up a C corporation about 10 years ago primarily for liability protection in my parachute rigging business. The business went bust but I still have the corporation active.

It didn't take that much work on my end to set it up. To maintain the entity I file a yearly report to state which takes a whole 5 minutes to fill out and file another form for the state excise tax which is $20. Since the business folded the entity doesn't file either a state or federal tax return. Maintaining the required paperwork is critical. Not doing so can render the entity dissolved and null which can bring new problems. Finally the board has an annual meeting which happens to coincide with a certain couple’s anniversary vacation. Our meeting minutes are a hoot to read as some of the meeting locations have been listed as Cozumel Mexico, some little bar in Ambergris Cay Belize, and a favorite spot in the Florida Keys. Expense of the annual meeting is deductible on the entity’s taxes but I never claimed a dime as it would have bankrupted the corporation and I would have run the risk of sitting in prison with the Enron board. The corporations name? The Uninsured Chuting Gallery Inc. dba The Chuting Gallery.

I strongly recommend that you get the advice from a top shelf high dollar attorney who is experienced in this type of work prior to setting up a corporate entity. Which direction you go is dependent on your circumstances and only the attorney can give you that advice. My attorney suggested that I keep the corporation going even though the business is kaput. Partly for liability protection for previous work accomplished and partly that I may need it later for something else.

[Ted Murphy]

I am considering buying a suppressor right now and will probably use my plumbing biz to register it.

Not a uber cool reason for buying one, but my main reson (beyond getting one before I can't) is that I want to go to my club at 0800 and shoot my AR and figure using the suppressor will keep the neighbors a little happier.

Ted

[Michael Carlin]

I am considering buying a suppressor right now and will probably use my plumbing biz to register it.

Not a uber cool reason for buying one, but my main reson (beyond getting one before I can't) is that I want to go to my club at 0800 and shoot my AR and figure using the suppressor will keep the neighbors a little happier.

Ted

Ted,

As long as you use subsonic ammunition that plan would work, otherwise the bullets crack will still be audible to the neighbors. In some cases that is much more obtrusive than the gunfire itself.

Michael

[Ted Murphy]

Ted,

As long as you use subsonic ammunition that plan would work, otherwise the bullets crack will still be audible to the neighbors. In some cases that is much more obtrusive than the gunfire itself.

Michael

I shot a suppressed M4 a while back and while I cannot say it silenced it, it did quiet the thing down considerably, even with supersonic ammo. Those things are real blammy without it.

never tried it in a 20". The reduction on that might not be as significant. But those shorties are LOUD, especially with a comp on it.

Ted

Edited March 8, 2008 by Ted Murphy

[BrianH]

If you ever attempt to get one, the term is "supressor"...silencer has an evil connotation with the Feds...

And technically speaking, the noise is only suppressed not silenced. If you use super sonic ammo in a suppressed firearm you still hear the sonic crack...

And yes, as I understand the issue, a Trust or LLC enables you to pass those items to an heir.

I guess for starting a little family of assassins....

[davidwiz]

I strongly recommend that you get the advice from a top shelf high dollar attorney who is experienced in this type of work prior to setting up a corporate entity. Which direction you go is dependent on your circumstances and only the attorney can give you that advice. My attorney suggested that I keep the corporation going even though the business is kaput. Partly for liability protection for previous work accomplished and partly that I may need it later for something else.

I setup companies for clients all the time. It is really not that difficult and not too terribly expensive. I would strongly suggest that you do get the advice of an attorney (doesn't have to be a "high dollar" one) and don't use one of those incorporation services that cater to individuals.