What would you do?

[rtr]

I witnessed the following, a shooter who I believe is brand new shooting his first match. He was standing in the shooting box with his pistol clearly pointed down range, there are no people downrange. He fools around with his pistol taking a sight picture and such for a few seconds (I believe the gun was unloaded at this point). I look to see the RO apparently not noticing his activity. When the RO notices what the shooter is doing the RO clearly tells him something, he then loads his gun and shoots the stage.

It appeared to me that the shooter drew his gun before the Make Ready command. When the shooter was asked later how his match went he said he was DQed. However he did shoot the stage and there are no DQs listed in the results.

For the record I did notify the MD of what I saw. I did not speak to the RO who ran this shooter.

I am a certified RO. So if you were in my shoes what would you have done when this occurred and/or after.

For the record I am not asking this to question what anyone else did here, just what I coulda woulda shoulda (or not) have done.

[Merlin Orr]

Without talking to the RO everything else is pure guessing.

[MI_Packer]

This shooter could have seen others doing the same but did not know that range command had been issued. For many reasons he might not have heard what was going on.

I might give the shooter a pass on the DQ and let him shoot. I certainly would review the range commands before the course of fire started and let him know what unsafe gun handling is and that normally a DQ would be issued.

We need new shooters to come back to their second match. I'm not saying at the cost of safety. What was done was done and it was over. I know I would have learned from that mistake. Being the shooters first match, it's pretty unlikely he presents a competitive challenge to any other shooter.

[NMBOpen]

It's not a good thing that the RO allowed hmself to be distracted, especially with a new shooter on the line. Just my $.02.

[baa]

Without talking to the RO everything else is pure guessing.

+1. You told the MD. Not a whole lot else you could (or should) do.

[Ron Ankeny]

So if you were in my shoes what would you have done when this occurred and/or after.

I assume this was a local match? I would have a friendly talk with the RO and with the shooter as a "learning" experience for all of those involved. Then again, around here I am kind of the CRO/RM/MD, lol.

[scribble]

It's not a good thing that the RO allowed hmself to be distracted, especially with a new shooter on the line. Just my $.02.

Amen to that, as just completing my RO class this past weekend it is all fresh in my mind yet it is swimming!

[Flexmoney]

I'd follow up with the MD to see what steps he took and if he found out more to the situation.

The MD needs to talk with the RO on this. Communication is good...helps everyone learn...and gets everybody on the same page.

If the MD hasn't done anything...then I'd suggest stepping up and talking with both of them (directly) on this issue.

Somebody must take the lead with regards to range safety and rules.

[Merlin Orr]

Just a thought..... Without speaking to the RO how can you know that the shooter was not operating under instructions from the RO when you witnessed what you "think" to be the safety infraction....?

Another small point..but a very important one to me is... When someone has a problem or disagrees with the way I am doing my job an excellent way to get on my little shit list is to go around me or over my head without addressing the supposed problem directly with me first.

Things are not always what they seem.

[XD Niner]

I agree with Merlin. Since you did not say at what point you began observing the shooter's actions, it could be that the RO told him to Make Ready. Certainly, the RO should have been focused on the shooter and his gun at that point and not let himself be distracted but that could have happened. In that case, the shooter is not at fault, it is the RO. Neither you nor we know for sure since you did not have a dialogue with the RO at that point in time.

If the RO had not told him to make ready, and this is probably the case, it was undoubtedly the result of a new shooter not knowing the process and rules yet. I would bet big money that there is not a single first time shooter out there, including all of us, who hasn't been overwhelmed with all the rules. Since by definition they haven't shot a match, everything they read is theory to them. They have no context to help them understand what they are reading. Then when they get to their first match they are again overwhelmed. It's kind of like entering a Vegas casino for your first time.

As long as the new shooter did not perform an act that put someone in danger, I think using the event as a learning experience is preferable to DQing him before he ever starts. That of course assumes that the RO did so.

Edited March 4, 2008 by XD Niner

[spook]

a shooter who I believe is brand new shooting his first match.

(I believe the gun was unloaded at this point).

It appeared to me that the shooter drew his gun before the Make Ready command.

So if you were in my shoes what would you have done when this occurred and/or after.

I would have done nothing.

[Chills1994]

All the more reason to have a new shooter orientation class....

Or at least have them show up at least 1/2 hour before the match actually starts, to emphasize the following:

1. SAFETY AREA IS OVER THERE!!

A. NO AMMO IN THE SAFETY AREA

B. ONLY HANDLE YOUR PISTOLA IN THE SAFETY AREA

(de-bag, holster up, before match, un-holster, and re-bag after match)

2. PISTOLA AND AMMO COMES TOGETHER ONLY AT THE DIRECTION OF THE RO!!!

3. PISTOLA COMES OUT OF THE HOLSTER ONLY AT THE DIRECTION OF THE RO!!

4. DO NOT BREAK THE 180!!

5. VIOLATING RULES 1 THROUGH 4 ABOVE WILL GET YOU DQ'ED!!

(sorry for all the shouting)

Me, I wouldn't have done anything because it looks/sounds like the RO already took care of it. Maybe later on off to the side and in private I would have asked the RO about it just to see if the RO did tell him that was a major NO-NO!

Then maybe later on I would have said something to the shooter about it... "That was your first break. Doing that again will get you DQ'ed. Now, you don't want to go to a major match, spend money on a hotel and a match fee, and then wind up getting DQ'ed, now, do ya?"

If the newbie isn't receptive to the advice, I'd remind him/her that us shooters are a talkative gossip-ey emailing bunch and that he/she doesn't want a reputation as a "Dairy Queen" or a "DQ magnet" who also has a piss poor attitude (WRT to RO's, people giving friendly advice, and safety in general).

[Merlin Orr]

1. SAFETY AREA IS OVER THERE!!

A. NO AMMO IN THE SAFETY AREA

B. ONLY HANDLE YOUR PISTOLA IN THE SAFETY AREA

(de-bag, holster up, before match, un-holster, and re-bag after match)

2. PISTOLA AND AMMO COMES TOGETHER ONLY AT THE DIRECTION OF THE RO!!!

3. PISTOLA COMES OUT OF THE HOLSTER ONLY AT THE DIRECTION OF THE RO!!

4. DO NOT BREAK THE 180!!

5. VIOLATING RULES 1 THROUGH 4 ABOVE WILL GET YOU DQ'ED!!

Good post..Nicely condensed little speech for the FNG.

[Flexmoney]

Just a thought..... Without speaking to the RO how can you know that the shooter was not operating under instructions from the RO when you witnessed what you "think" to be the safety infraction....?

Either way...the RO needs a talkin' to.

If he did give the Make Ready, he shouldn't then be off and not paying attention to the gun/handling (new shooter or not).

[Merlin Orr]

I absolutely agree to the fact that safety is paramount and rules are to be obeyed. My comments are only to point out that sometimes things are not as they seem and if you wish to take exception to an RO's work you should be sure..not just think..that you have the facts. And to get the facts I feel you should start at the start.

Anything else is just guessing.

[SA Friday]

Chris, I would have asked the RO what happened, and then discussed it with him from there. I don't know a single RO or MD in CO that I would be hesitant to approach.

Well.... OK, maybe one, but just that one.

[Tman33_99]

Chris, I would have asked the RO what happened, and then discussed it with him from there. I don't know a single RO or MD in CO that I would be hesitant to approach.

Well.... OK, maybe one, but just that one.

Now now...lets not get personal

[JThompson]

Just a thought..... Without speaking to the RO how can you know that the shooter was not operating under instructions from the RO when you witnessed what you "think" to be the safety infraction....?

Either way...the RO needs a talkin' to.

If he did give the Make Ready, he shouldn't then be off and not paying attention to the gun/handling (new shooter or not).

+1 From the time that MR command is given your eyes need to be on the shooter and gun... nothing else.

Edited March 5, 2008 by JThompson

[Kimberkid]

Bottom line, safety wasnt comprimised. It may be a DQable offense, and not within the SOP, but it was an empty range and he was in the box waiting to go. From a new shooter perspective, had he not been explained that waiting in the box, alone, with an empty range still is not permission to safely handle your pistol downrange, I could see how he could easily justify what he did. I dont think any yelling or DQ or anything of the nature is in order. I would advise a gentle reminder of how exactly we do things, but a bitching out isnt warranted IMO.

I also woulda gone to the RO and not the MD, but thats just me and I dont know the people in question.

[abs]

Chris, I would have asked the RO what happened, and then discussed it with him from there. I don't know a single RO or MD in CO that I would be hesitant to approach.

Well.... OK, maybe one, but just that one.

Sean, I hope I am not the "one", I try not to be a a**hole or range Nazi. Since I am usually the RO and the MD if a shooter would to do that I would NOT DQ him, but rather take 20 seconds and explain to him WHY that is not acceptable behavior.

The future of USPSA is juniors and new shooters. With the price of fuel, reloading compentants, ammo etc. (general inflation) I am not seeing the quantity of new shooters we used to see a few years ago.

OK, since I would let the shooter off the hook, as long as SAFETY was not compromised, go ahead and give me your best shot!

abs

[JThompson]

Chris, I would have asked the RO what happened, and then discussed it with him from there. I don't know a single RO or MD in CO that I would be hesitant to approach.

Well.... OK, maybe one, but just that one.

Sean, I hope I am not the "one", I try not to be a a**hole or range Nazi. Since I am usually the RO and the MD if a shooter would to do that I would NOT DQ him, but rather take 20 seconds and explain to him WHY that is not acceptable behavior.

The future of USPSA is juniors and new shooters. With the price of fuel, reloading compentants, ammo etc. (general inflation) I am not seeing the quantity of new shooters we used to see a few years ago.

OK, since I would let the shooter off the hook, as long as SAFETY was not compromised, go ahead and give me your best shot!

abs

IF... the shooter had not been issued the MR command, then safety was compromised and I would have DQed him. If the RO took his eyes off the shooter after the MR then safety was also compromised. I would have taken the time to explain the rules, but he still would be done for the day. As was stated earlier... A prime example of why a new shooter orientation is a good idea. Failing that, the RO should never let his/her attention waiver, esp with a new shooter. The fact that nobody was hurt doesn't mean this was a safe action.

If the MR had been given then it was a failure on the ROs part to properly supervise his/her shooter.

I would have asked the RO about the details of the incident and decided from there whether to speak with a RM or MD.

Edited March 6, 2008 by JThompson

[SA Friday]

Sean, I hope I am not the "one"

No way, abs. I would not hesitate to talk to you about anything on the range. You're one of the good guys.

I would not approach my "one" because the fall-out would disrupt everyone. Names are not important. Knowing what would happen with a peticular person sometimes is though.

[Turbo23]

Chris,

Up at my club I would have DQed him. But we start every match with a "New Shooter Meeting" solely to avoid the gray area like this one.

We give the new shooters a very direct and to the point intro to USPSA. I let them know that breaking any of those rules WILL result in the short course!!!

So please be very careful and ask us for anything at all. We also thank them for coming out to see what all the buzz is about.

Just my .02

[abs]

Chris,

Up at my club I would have DQed him. But we start every match with a "New Shooter Meeting" solely to avoid the gray area like this one.

We give the new shooters a very direct and to the point intro to USPSA. I let them know that breaking any of those rules WILL result in the short course!!!

So please be very careful and ask us for anything at all. We also thank them for coming out to see what all the buzz is about.

Just my .02

Forgot to mention, that ALL new shooters at our club undergo a safety class that lasts 2 or 3 hours of instruction, both in the classroom and on the range. Not just a cursory introduction.

[Kimberkid]

The 2 clubs I shoot at most frequently, have every new shooter gets paired with a veteran as a sort of new shooter class.

If he is headed downrange handling an unloaded gun, and no one else was downrange, how is safety comprimised? just because a "safety" rule, or a standard operating procedure is broken, doesnt mean anyone is less safe because of it.

It doesnt sound to me like the shooter in question was some negligent a-hole, but rather didnt know the SOP for how we shoot. Would the same shooter have handled his gun if people were still uprange? Would he have handled his gun outside of the start box? It doesnt sound like he would have.

From an outside, 3rd party, non/new shooter perspective, I could see how someone might think that standing in the start box, facing down an empty range, with an RO right behind him could qualify as "under the direction of the Range Officer". We as experienced shooters know that you have to be given the vocal command first, but he might not have understood that, or understand how significant a point it is.

Mention the slip up gently and let it go. Likely he wont ever do it again.