Law Enforcement Tactical 3 Gun

[sbmd]

Read the posts in regards to the Stockton match. I understand where you guys are coming from and we addressed many of the issues as they were brought to our attention. Please remember that this facility has never hosted a competitive match prior to the NRA event. We had attempted to bring non-competitive range staff up to speed as quickly as possible. In some cases the speed did not get there right away but in the end the event went great in my opinion considering the steady rain most of the afternoon. The match staff was friendly and helpful to all which reflected great on the facility. I understand that Bear Creek jsut had their first IDPA matcha and will be conducting USPSA matches there as well. That is fantastic news.

Now onward...our next event is in Albuquerque, New Mexico on September 19 and 20, 2008. You can coose which day you would like to shoot as it is only a one day event. There will be 9 courses of fire with about 190 combined rounds.

Attached is a match announcement and application.

If you have any question give me a shout. lhouck@nrahq.org

Larry

Albuquerque_NRA_TPC_Announcement___Registration.pdf

[KevinC]

Any news on Albuquerque results? When is the next match and where?

[pjb45]

I was at the ABQ match. Several members of the Rio Grande Practical Shooters club acted as ROs-Pat, Rod, Rod and Cheryl. The participants seem to really enjoy the match and its format. Many remarked about not shooting enough shotgun prior to the match, as there was one stage totally dedicated to the shotgun. It required three major reloads at a minimum, more if you missed either the steel or the clay birds.

One rifle stage-pretty sweet lots of targers both large and small. One multigun stage-start with a shotgun, move to pistol then a rifle. 4 short pistol stages-including one totally weak hand. There was a premium placed on accuracy. The penality was pretty stiff for shooting anything but 'A'. One LEO did remark that "if I took that long to shot, I would be ......." The rules needed to be explained more comprehensivelyand perhaps the scoring methodology slightly modified. But for a major first time event, it went extremely well. The minor critizisms expressed were far outnumbered by the well-runned nature of the event.

Next years' should be even better. More LEOs will probably bring their own shotguns and rifles. All in all, Larry and his crew did an outstanding job. A big Kudo to Rod for setting up all the stages. Maybe next year he will actually get some help.

Sorry I do not have the scores.

Again, Larry and the NRA did an outstanding job. The sponsors were very generous. It could set the standard for future events. In reality the Rio Grande club's equipment and President were the critical success factors.

[sbmd]

Hey folks got the web site up and working....

http://www.nrahq.org/law/competitions/tpc/index.asp

If you have problems with the link let me know. lhouck@nrahq.org

[spd522]

I can't wait for next season. I only attended the Stockton match this year, but it was a lot of fun.

Made some new friends and caught up with some old ones.

Craig

[fastshooter03]

Please forgive me as I haven't read through the whole thread.

I think this is the match that Ronnie Casper told us they were looking for help to run at Holmen, WI next Spring.

I think us non-retirees need a little more info:

How many day format? 1,2,3?

Any RO compensation for hotel, food, etc?

I'm sure the club has many questions as well but I'm not a member so.......

You might be hard pressed to find the amount of help you need if the incentives to be part of the match staff aren't there. Especially for Non-LE people.

I'm wondering why you would want to limit yourself by allowing only LEs to shoot? Especially if you say the match fee is going to be low to attract shooters you're going to need high numbers to pay for everything.

Why not figure out how many shooters you want/need to have a full match and then fill it up with as many LEs as you can. If there are any spots left fill them in with Non-LEs from a waiting list. Make sure you don't Squad or Score them together and there won't be a problem--right? Separate prize tables if there are any prizes.

I like to see as many 3-gun matches as possible put on but ANY match is no picnic to run. Even monthly matches are hard to find the kind of help you need to have the least amount of stress to all involved.

We have been fortunate in the past few years to have Ronnie and Lori Casper running Monthly 3-gun and Uspsa on the same weekend in a Saturday/Sunday format but the lack of help just eats away at your enthusiasm month after month. You begin to wonder why you are the only ones spending so much of your time doing it and not having time to go to other matches or do other things like the people who just want to show up, shoot, and scoot. As far as I Know they pretty much set up those matches by themselves. There's more help to tear down but not a whole lot. We don't have a lot of 3-gun/Uspsa shooters/club members in WI especially in more remote areas like Holmen. Seems like we have lots and lots of club members that are trap shooters who don't know, don't care, or simply don't like what we do.

So my point is that you'll almost always have a small number of people in a certain area willing to do whatever is needed but most will require some sort of incentive and a kick in the butt to get em to help.

That's just the way it is.

Hope you can make it happen in WI.

Nick

[spd522]

Please forgive me as I haven't read through the whole thread.

I think this is the match that Ronnie Casper told us they were looking for help to run at Holmen, WI next Spring.

I think us non-retirees need a little more info:

How many day format? 1,2,3?

Any RO compensation for hotel, food, etc?

I'm sure the club has many questions as well but I'm not a member so.......

You might be hard pressed to find the amount of help you need if the incentives to be part of the match staff aren't there. Especially for Non-LE people.

I'm wondering why you would want to limit yourself by allowing only LEs to shoot? Especially if you say the match fee is going to be low to attract shooters you're going to need high numbers to pay for everything.

Why not figure out how many shooters you want/need to have a full match and then fill it up with as many LEs as you can. If there are any spots left fill them in with Non-LEs from a waiting list. Make sure you don't Squad or Score them together and there won't be a problem--right? Separate prize tables if there are any prizes.

I like to see as many 3-gun matches as possible put on but ANY match is no picnic to run. Even monthly matches are hard to find the kind of help you need to have the least amount of stress to all involved.

We have been fortunate in the past few years to have Ronnie and Lori Casper running Monthly 3-gun and Uspsa on the same weekend in a Saturday/Sunday format but the lack of help just eats away at your enthusiasm month after month. You begin to wonder why you are the only ones spending so much of your time doing it and not having time to go to other matches or do other things like the people who just want to show up, shoot, and scoot. As far as I Know they pretty much set up those matches by themselves. There's more help to tear down but not a whole lot. We don't have a lot of 3-gun/Uspsa shooters/club members in WI especially in more remote areas like Holmen. Seems like we have lots and lots of club members that are trap shooters who don't know, don't care, or simply don't like what we do.

So my point is that you'll almost always have a small number of people in a certain area willing to do whatever is needed but most will require some sort of incentive and a kick in the butt to get em to help.

That's just the way it is.

Hope you can make it happen in WI.

Nick

Just being a competitor and not staff, I can only answer a few questions.

Format has been 1 day so far. This is the first year for the NRA and this program. Initially started to promote LE into more competition. I don't know the

long term plans but I wouldn't be surprised to see an expansion in the future to civilian matches should this take off.

I don't know of the RO incentive issue. I agree help is tough to find. I know at the match I shot, there were non-participants helping RO but don't know

if they were compensated or just volunteers. The ones I knew were pretty much local so I doubt hotel was an issue.

Larry is the go-to guy on this and great about answering questions. Email him at lhouck@nrahq.org or go to sbmd and IM him.

It's a really fun match so I hope it works out and grows in all areas. And hopefully a civilian version someday.

Craig

[MLE-ShootingSports]

O.K. can someone explain to me why police are not "civilians"? Does a Fireman rate the same level of distinction? The Game Warden? Prison Guards? How about other state, county, or municipal employees? Is the lady selling tags a civilian?

When did the police stop being civilians?

If the NRA wants to sponsor police only competitions thats great. Good luck with it.

Mike

That's a good question. I'm sure that it has historical signifincance, but if I was to guess, I'd say that both the police and miltary serve and protect. Perhaps that is why they are thought of as non-civilians. I'm guessing of course.

As far as the NRA sponsoring LE only matches... I think that it is great. The more LE personnel they/we can get out there shooting in competition the better it is for everyone. I encourage my LE friends to shoot in competition. There's nothing like having an officer that is a good shot in the field! If you think about it, it is sort of like free life insurance. Nothing scares me more, than having someone say that they only shoot to qualify, clean it and put it away. Especially, when I might be the hostage on their next call!

Edited October 30, 2008 by MLE-ShootingSports

[abn-rgr]

I also attended the match in Stockton, MO. It was a great match. It has caused several of my military and LEO buddies to take up USPSA style matches. This is a win-win for all of us. Larry and Mark put on a great match and worked their asses off. I will be attending and RO'ing next years match again.

[whiskey1]

Will any of these be held in the SE part of the US in 2009?

[tk4]

What about the midwest for 09?

[AFH]

You are able to check future match dates at the NRA-TPC section of the NRA website: NRA TPC Schedule.

Andy

[MichiganShootist]

Bill

Glad to hear you have a great new opportunity. I am a Life NRA member, NRA certified instructor, NRA certified safety officer, and NRA recruiter.. and believe me -- - - -the organization is WAY short on people with hands on experience.

Right now----the NRA is infested with "kids" well under 30 with East coast degrees...who have never fired a gun.... This is the case in both staff and line positions. The support for people like me in the field is miserable... I hope you get more "back up".

F Y I ----My home IDPA club has run a couple LEO only matches each year for the past 4 years----and they have been well received. The way we open that up to the IDPA/USPSA community.. is to run the LEO ONLY match on Saturday..(many agencies bring a team) ... and then we run what we call the "Day After" match.... the following day for the non-leo community. Hell the range is set up... just put up some new targets and do it all over on Sunday.

These events generate considerable particpation and revenue for the club and have really strengthened the relationship between the LEO and competitive shooting community.

Fire me a PM if I can ever support your efforts.

Edited December 17, 2008 by MichiganShootist

[SharonAnne9x23]

i skipped most of the post. I used to shoot with my local PD back in Michigan once in a great while. I regularly embarrassed them, even when I used their equipment. Cops don't like to shoot with civilians because they regularly get waxed. Yes, there are cops that can shoot at a national level but they are few and far between. Sadly they are not willing to shoot with the best so they can learn. Education is the way to betterment, including shooting matches. The military has acknowledged that some civilians know better than the military, witness Todd Jarrett, Jerry Barnhart, Rob Leatham and other top Practical shooters teaching elite military units. Police training and skills will continue to lag behind top civilian as long as the police continue to have the NIH attitude.

[kurtm]

UGH...not this again! Police are no different than the people who make up society in general. Of all your friends and aquintances, how many shoot and or compete on a regular basis. Now we are a bit skewed in this respect cause we all are shooters, but think about the average person. The vast majority ARE NOT interested in competitive shooting, or even shooting to any great degree. These same percentages apply to the P.D.s. Yes I am well aware of the fact that they do carry guns most of the time, but that is just part of the job. Rare is the person that gets into L.E. just for the guns or shooting. To ask why L.E. doesn't shoot matches more is to ask why aerospace engineers don't shoot matches more. A few do, but the vast majority just have interests that are in a different area, ie. golf, sports cars, skiing, tennis, mt. biking....etc. I have run into many swat cops who don't really like to shoot, they are in swat for the excitement of the action...not the shooting. Yes they go and practice because they know they might need that skill, but it isn't something that they have a great drive to do. You have to have a love of the sport in order to excell. Remember "gun guys" come from all walks of life as do "non gun guys". Why don't more cops compete?? the same reason that in a city of over 2.5 million there are only 60 shooters that show up for a weekend match. KurtM

[whiskey1]

Thanks, Kurt. You said it much better than I could have....

[jbullgpd]

UGH...not this again! Police are no different than the people who make up society in general. Of all your friends and aquintances, how many shoot and or compete on a regular basis. Now we are a bit skewed in this respect cause we all are shooters, but think about the average person. The vast majority ARE NOT interested in competitive shooting, or even shooting to any great degree. These same percentages apply to the P.D.s. Yes I am well aware of the fact that they do carry guns most of the time, but that is just part of the job. Rare is the person that gets into L.E. just for the guns or shooting. To ask why L.E. doesn't shoot matches more is to ask why aerospace engineers don't shoot matches more. A few do, but the vast majority just have interests that are in a different area, ie. golf, sports cars, skiing, tennis, mt. biking....etc. I have run into many swat cops who don't really like to shoot, they are in swat for the excitement of the action...not the shooting. Yes they go and practice because they know they might need that skill, but it isn't something that they have a great drive to do. You have to have a love of the sport in order to excell. Remember "gun guys" come from all walks of life as do "non gun guys". Why don't more cops compete?? the same reason that in a city of over 2.5 million there are only 60 shooters that show up for a weekend match. KurtM

I have been trying to put into words that exact statement. Nice Job Kurt. I try to explain to people why can't get my fellow LEO's out to the range but from now on I'm just gonna print this out on a 3x5 and hand it to them.

[kellyn]

Great post, Kurt. I've given up on getting local LEOs to shoot matches. If they want to, great, if not, don't bother trying to get them to.

While I fully appreciate the negative comments regarding LEO-only matches, I think it is a good idea to get officers shooting. If that means non-threatening LEO only matches, then that is what is takes. The goal should be to get as many out shooting as we can.

[VNGunfighter]

"non-threatening LEO only matches"

Hey Kelly,

would our LE matches be in this category??

Jimmy

[NovaShooter]

KURT from a FED LEO I thank you for your post you hit the nail on the head. For last years NRA LEO match at Fairfax, VA. I talked six fellow agents from my office into coming out and shooting. They all had a great time and I was able to get one of them hooked!!!

He even made the trip with me to Benning and we both had a great time at a great 3G match. Unfortunately his wife wants to beat me because he has spent a piss load of money on guns and gear

I dont want to make excuses for my fellow LEO's that dont shoot but one thing to consider is our crappy schedules. Unfortunately we have to work a lot of weekend and jacked up hours.

Jayson

[jobob]

I was a shooter before I got into law enforcement. The job got so that it took so much of my time, and almost all weekends, that I pretty much gave up competition. I've been retired for 3 years and am having a ball shooting now! I see there's a match at Sherwood, OR in August. I'll plan on shooting it, and I'll try to get some of my old compadres to shoot it, too.

[ShooterSteve]

Nova Shooter, you guys keep shooting and keep getting better and better. One day you will be in a very bad predicament, and you will come home to your wife and kids. It will be because of the extra work you put in to be even better at what you do. My hat is off to you guys, hang in there.

[spd522]

Back before I retired, I was one of the FI at my PD. The head instructor and I always argued the value of competition in police firearms training.

His thought was that it wasn't realistic and that the targets were not a threat so the officer wouldn't show caution before acting.

My arguement was that competition caused stress. Stress was the common element of competition and a street encounter.

Being able to shoot, move, reload, clear malfunctions, etc. under the stress of competition would help keep you alive on the street.

Needless to say, not much happened while he was there. Officers did their quarterly training shooting the same old regiment of standing barricade,

kneeling, and weak hand stuff that had been taught for decades. Courses were timed but they were so slow, everyone always passed. And most everyone

whined and complained about the BS courses. Basically, they didn't like having to clean their guns for what lame training they were put through.

He finally retired, and the new guy in charge was a little more lenient. I would set up some combat courses with more of a USPSA flair. Multiple targets,

running, shooting on the move, lots of steel, and all put on a timer. They had to keep with the normal training of use of cover and tac reloads unless at slidelock,

but otherwise they were give a scenerio and told to solve it. Guess what? The guys actually had fun. Many wanted to shoot it over and over to

improve their score. Or to beat their buddies who had just shot it faster. Sometimes to make sure they didn't just hose away, we would limit the number of

bullets they had available for their pistol or shotgun and if they ran out, their score suffered.

Having LEO/Mil matches may seem kind of selfish to those who want to shoot it but don't fit into any of the above categories. And I can understand that thinking.

But the more LEO/Mil guys we can get out shooting these matches, the more they will see how much fun it is and venture out to the many other matches available to everyone.

Getting more folks involved in shooting sports - isn't that really what it is all about?

Another thing to think about , especially with the political mess we are currently looking at........... Don't we want as many LEO and Mil guys on OUR side supporting our rights to

private ownership of all kinds of guns for sport and competition?

Craig

Edited December 19, 2008 by spd522

[kellyn]

Jimmy, your matches are certainly NOT "non-threatening." I have to go see a therapist after every team event. It goes something like this:

Therapist: It's only a word, can't you say it?

Kelly : NO!

Therapist: You can say "Tube." C'mon I know you can.

Kelly: sniffle. "I feel so cold."

Therapist: Can you say "T"?

Kelly: "mommy"

[Tom Freeman]

Jimmy, your matches are certainly NOT "non-threatening." I have to go see a therapist after every team event.

I had to go see a physical terrorist after the wind sprint stage and team event. I had bruises where you shouldnt have bruises.

By the way, the 2009 version of Jimmys LEO match has been approved with the range. Now is only the Sniper Match Director will cancel his match to allow it happen. He is a complete prick, so I dont know if he will...