Manually lower hammer in Production

[Flexmoney]

Hey...that seems to make sense.

[eerw]

[JThompson]

Hey...that seems to make sense.

Indeed. There was little else they could do without killing a host of legal guns.

I'm glad they made a ruling though as the "special conditions" section saying "fully decocked" and 8.1.1.2 saying only "decocked" is a bit confusing as to what they really wanted. So basically they are saying decocked and fully decocked, for all intents, mean the same thing.

Edited March 19, 2008 by JThompson

[Gary Stevens]

SAFriday says:

Rev, when writing the USPSA 2008 rules, the BOD didn't initially know that changing the distance from the belt would essentially outlaw the Blade-tech DOH in production. None of them were production shooters (not sure about now after the elections). I'm not sure that any of us can assume that the BoD or anyone else has addressed this issue before if the questions from this productive discussion have risen to the level where the BoD will make an official ruling on the matter.

Sir with all due respect, I was on the BOD when the rules were being written and was also a Production shooter. In fact, I am the current Super Senior Production National Champion. Probably the last time I'll ever get to say those words, but they are true as of today.

And the DOH type holster is not prohibited from being used in Production. If you are speaking of an initial draft that was posted for comment, you might be correct. And yes it was known that it would prohibit the DOH type holster, that was the intent of some. Fortunately with comments from the members we came to a more inclusive rule.

Gary

[Flexmoney]

I am the current Super Senior Production National Champion. Probably the last time I'll ever get to say those words, but they are true as of today.

Giddy-up.

[mpolans]

New ruling that should be on the NROI Interpreatations page soon.

Manufacturers have installed decockers to take the hammer safely to a position that is deemed safe, therefore; the term fully decocked is the position that the hammer rest at once the decocker has been used. Altering a factory installed decocker to bring the hammer to rest at less than a half cocked position is not allowed.

John Amidon

VP USPSA

Director NROI

I must be missing something as I'm still a little unclear on effect of the above in regard to the original poster's question.

It appears to imply that manually lowering/decocking the hammer on a gun that doesn't have a factory installed decocker (ex. some CZ-75s, SP-01s, etc.) is okay, but that it is unsafe to shoot a Sig that has a factory extended mag release installed because it would result in the decocker bringing "the hammer to rest at less than a half-cocked position..." (The decocker would be disabled, but the hammer could still be manually lowered/decocked.)

[Chuck Anderson]

The rule says that at LAMR you can only put your finger on the trigger on a gun without a decocker. If you've disabled the decocker I don't think that is going to change. The gun cannot be used for Production as it can't be legally placed in the required starting position.

[wide45]

Altering a factory installed decocker to bring the hammer to rest at less than a half cocked position is not allowed.

If your factory decocker was designed to lower the hammer all the way down, would you be allowed to alter it so it only dropped to half cock?

[Nik Habicht]

I'm certain that once you ask John, he'll be happy to amend his interpretation to prohibit that as well --- are we really that unclear on the intent? If it comes from the factory with a decocker, use the decocker to put the hammer wherever the factory designed it to go. If it doesn't, carefully use the trigger to lower the hammer as far forward as it will go --- to the same place the factory designed it to go....

This isn't hard, and to quote Captain Mal Reynolds "Why're we still talking about this?" :D

[wide45]

Because what was meant, is soon forgotten, and we are stuck with what was written.

Being we are talking Production, it would have made sense to simply allow no decocker modifications, but that is not how the rule reads.

It is perfectly legal to perform unseen modifications to reduce the trigger travel in production guns. Why prohibit modifying the decocker, providing it is not an external modification?

Edited March 19, 2008 by wide45

[mpolans]

Because what was meant, is soon forgotten, and we are stuck with what was written.

<snip>

This is *very* true. Look at things like the 170mm magazine rule. IIRC, it was "meant" to allow singlestack 1911s with 170mm long mags to compete with existing doublestack guns...then someone started making 170mm doublestack mags and no one cared about the meaning, just what was written.

Recently, 9 mostly old folks in black robes heard arguments to determine the meaning of what some old dead white guys "meant" when they were drawing up a document a couple hundred years ago.

Edited March 19, 2008 by mpolans

[revchuck]

Recently, 12 mostly old folks in black robes heard arguments to determine the meaning of what some old dead white guys "meant" when they were drawing up a document a couple hundred years ago.

Not to pick nits, but that's nine mostly old folks in black robes...

[mpolans]

Recently, 12 mostly old folks in black robes heard arguments to determine the meaning of what some old dead white guys "meant" when they were drawing up a document a couple hundred years ago.

Not to pick nits, but that's nine mostly old folks in black robes...

Arrggg! I need sleep...corrected.

[RickB]

This is kind of an old thread, but it's the closest thing I could find to addressing my issue. CZ75 derivatives come in both decocker and manual-safety forms. It appears that the NROI ruling cited above allows the hammer to remain in whatever position the decocker leaves it, "fully down" or not. If the gun in question is a version with a thumb safety, which must be manually decocked with the trigger, must the hammer be lowered "all the way down"; or is this version of the gun allowed to start at half-cock because the decocker version is at half-cock after applying the decocking lever? The rule seems to clearly indicate that if there's no decocker, the hammer must be "all the way down", and that no intermediate position between fully cocked and fully down is allowed? That there hasn't been any discussion on this topic in almost a year makes me think there's no gray area, but a shooter was starting at half-cock with a non-decocker SP01 yesterday, and I didn't want to make an issue of it if there's been a more recent ruling that, well, is contrary to the rules.

[revchuck]

...a shooter was starting at half-cock with a non-decocker SP01 yesterday...

[Monty Python falsetto]

"Bailiff, whack his...!"

[/Monty Python falsetto]

I spent my last range session working on DA/SA double taps with my CZ-75B at various ranges, freestyle, SHO and WHO, decocking all the way each time. Starting with the hammer all the way down ain't that fargin' difficult, and it's sure not worth the procedural. Having said that, it's also quite possible that the shooter in question was unaware of the ruling and just needed some guidance. It's pretty easy to reason that since the decocker versions drop the hammer to half-cock, it would only be fair to manually decock the hammer to the same position.

[Nik Habicht]

Starting with the hammer all the way down ain't that fargin' difficult,and it's sure not worth the procedural. Having said that, it's also quite possible that the shooter in question was unaware of the ruling and just needed some guidance. It's pretty easy to reason that since the decocker versions drop the hammer to half-cock, it would only be fair to manually decock the hammer to the same position.

Ummm, no procedural for starting with a hammer at half-cock --- instead, move the competitor to Open Division for failing to comply with Production Division Equipment rules under 6.2.5.1

Rick,

if it has a decocker, it's good to start in whatever position the decocker leaves it in. If it doesn't have a decocker, the shooter needs to manually decock the gun and it start in whatever fully down position allowed by the design --- not on the half-cock notch, if present....

[revchuck]

Ummm, no procedural for starting with a hammer at half-cock --- instead, move the competitor to Open Division for failing to comply with Production Division Equipment rules under 6.2.5.1

Doh!