625 discontinued?

[Carmoney]

S&W has discontinued production for 2008 on the plain 4" and 5" 625's.

Well, being in the biz you would know better than anyone, Jeremy.

That's bad news. From its shaky start in 1988, the basic 5" 625 turned out to be one of the overall best products to come out of that factory in its history, or so it seems to me.

Fortunately, with 20 years' worth of 5" guns out there floating around, they won't ever be that hard to find. The 25-2 has been gone now for 25 years, and they are still fairly common.

Y'know, you would think S&W would learn from the failures of some of the other old-line quality gunmakers (High Standard comes to mind) that continuously raising prices while simultaneously cheapening the product is a recipe for ruin. But apparently they're just a bunch of idiots.

[luttrell625]

Middle Man,

It's not "internet BS." We are a dealer for S&W, and the 5" is not shown in the 2008 catalog. Furthermore, we have two major distributors that are not only out of stock of the 5" 625, but no longer even list it. If you want one, get one now. They will probably bring it back at some point in the future due to great wailing and gnashing of teeth, but for the moment, it's out.

Smith has been changing a lot of things, mostly for the good, under the people running the company now. Their stock has done well, and despite hiccups, will continue to do well as they come out with more new, good quality products. However, they are scaling back things like their support of shooting sports. I hope that doesn't last or go any further, but who knows.

And as for FFL's comment about USPSA not wanting revo shooters because it limits them to six shots, that is a silly statement with out much basis. Only one of the three major run and gun sports in this country allows a revolver shooter to fire more than six rounds per cylinder. Not only that, but in that sport's rule book it specifies that courses must be set up to be six round neutral. This is in an effort to eliminate any disadvantage a six shooter might pose when compared to a 7 or 8 shot. The advantage is there, however, and to compete at a national level shooters are now forced to buy new, and more expensive, 8 shots. A six shot limit in USPSA actually opens the revolver division up to a broader range of legal guns that are all roughly on the same playing field. Revolvers have always been predominantly thought of as six shooters, and always will be. By allowing the 8 shots USPSA would be making obsolete the vast majority of revolvers out there, and forcing shooters into a situation where they must buy $900 guns to stay competitive, rather than enjoying their 6 shots which can cost significantly less. By keeping the division limited to 6 shots USPSA is in fact inviting more people than it would be otherwise. I know lots of people with six shot revolvers that don't have 8 shots. I don't know anyone with an 8 shot that does not also have a 6 shot of some kind.

[Carmoney]

When we re-wrote the Revolver Division equipment rules for the 2008 USPSA rulebook right here on this forum, there was an overwhelming consensus that Revolver Division should continue to follow the "six shots between reloads" tradition. Although it is fun to consider the possibility of allowing 8-shooters to play but limiting them to minor scoring, similar to the major/minor options available in Single-Stack, in the long run I think it's best to keep USPSA Revolver a six-shot proposition.

[Carlos]

That settles it: I am keeping mine.

3 options I hope come to pass from this unfortunate situation:

1) They introduce a 5" blued steel gun identical to the 2007 stainless 625 or 625JM

2) They at least offer the 625 as a custom shop gun and

3) Taurus or Ruger offers a 5" non-alloy frame .45 WITHOUT ports (maybe that would spur S&W to reconsider dropping the 625).

[Middle Man]

It's not entirely germane to the 625, but in the macro-scheme of things consider S&W's current dilemma. What if your stock price went from north of 20 bucks per share in October to 4 bucks per share in December?

Just to recap, I'll quote myself on S&W's current dilemma.

[luttrell625]

Just to clarify, I wasn't criticizing Middle Man's comment. I had hoped when I first saw that the 5" wasn't in the catalog that some printing or clerical tragedy had occurred, but no such luck. Once my search for the gun proved unfruitful I grumpily resigned myself to the fact that for the moment at least, they are kaput.

He has a good point about the stock, as well. I think it will come back up to a respectable level, and I have been impressed with what they have done over the last 2 1/2 years with the company, but in the current market things are shaky at best, especially with an election coming. I don't know if this has anything to do with it, but the metal prices have got to be hurting the gun companies, as well.

[pskys2]

Middle Man,

It's not "internet BS." We are a dealer for S&W, and the 5" is not shown in the 2008 catalog. Furthermore, we have two major distributors that are not only out of stock of the 5" 625, but no longer even list it. If you want one, get one now. They will probably bring it back at some point in the future due to great wailing and gnashing of teeth, but for the moment, it's out.

Smith has been changing a lot of things, mostly for the good, under the people running the company now. Their stock has done well, and despite hiccups, will continue to do well as they come out with more new, good quality products. However, they are scaling back things like their support of shooting sports. I hope that doesn't last or go any further, but who knows.

And as for FFL's comment about USPSA not wanting revo shooters because it limits them to six shots, that is a silly statement with out much basis. Only one of the three major run and gun sports in this country allows a revolver shooter to fire more than six rounds per cylinder. Not only that, but in that sport's rule book it specifies that courses must be set up to be six round neutral. This is in an effort to eliminate any disadvantage a six shooter might pose when compared to a 7 or 8 shot. The advantage is there, however, and to compete at a national level shooters are now forced to buy new, and more expensive, 8 shots. A six shot limit in USPSA actually opens the revolver division up to a broader range of legal guns that are all roughly on the same playing field. Revolvers have always been predominantly thought of as six shooters, and always will be. By allowing the 8 shots USPSA would be making obsolete the vast majority of revolvers out there, and forcing shooters into a situation where they must buy $900 guns to stay competitive, rather than enjoying their 6 shots which can cost significantly less. By keeping the division limited to 6 shots USPSA is in fact inviting more people than it would be otherwise. I know lots of people with six shot revolvers that don't have 8 shots. I don't know anyone with an 8 shot that does not also have a 6 shot of some kind.

As to USPSA and 6 shot Revolvers, I don't think it can put better than the above. It even made sense to me.

Dave

[Blueridge]

Just responding to the 7 and 8 shot revolver restriction mentioned above. As far as the rules are concerned it seems to me that a revolver that has a 7 or 8 shot capacity can be used in Production division per USPSA rules. I would consider doing so myself if I had such a revolver. Heck, given the lack of revolver shooters at most of the matches I have been two, I have been tempted to use my 6 shot in production.

[Danva]

I am just now getting used to counting to six. Every once in a while I will look for the elusive "7th" round.

If it ever goes off on 7 will I be suprised

I really enjoy the sport of Revo!

Danva

[Tom E]

Since this has come up, it seems 8 shot revolvers would fit in with single stack very nicely. Might ruffle some feathers though.

[Carmoney]

Since this has come up, it seems 8 shot revolvers would fit in with single stack very nicely. Might ruffle some feathers though.

Nah, you might be able to beat some of the local yutzes, but an 8-round revo would never be truly competitive against a field of competent single-stackers.

I have always thought it would be interesting to allow 8-rounders to play in Revo. I have thought about it a lot, and I think a 627 scored minor would be roughly equivalent to a 625 scored major. At first blush you would think the extra rounds would be determinative, but when you factor in the scoring difference, and the slightly faster reloads of the 625, it would be pretty dang close. As I said earlier, it's fun to consider, but in the final analysis it would create the impression (if not a reality) of an equipment race. And Revo Division is not supposed to be an equipment race.

I think we have our USPSA rules set where they should be right now. Six rounds between reloads, no ports or comps, iron sights. And to drift this back toward the thread topic, as it turned out, nothing works better in USPSA Revo than a plain-Jane 5" 625 with a good action job.

[David Sinko]

I wouldn't be surprised if S&W drops the 625 for good. After all, look what they did to the K Frame .357 Magnum. At least they had the decency to not pull that stunt while Bill Jordan was still alive.

What is the trend with S&W? They continue to cheapen the revolver lineup while pushing lightweight alloy frames in the name of progress and technology. Those of us who shoot revolvers a lot and believe in them seem to be finding that these alloy frames aren't holding up to even moderate use. There is only bad news here and I fear it will get worse.

Ruger does not offer a single revolver that is viable for high level USPSA competition. They despise customers who will modify their guns and will not even service anything that has been given custom work. Trust me, I know all about this. And I think we all know that Taurus is not as good as S&W is even at their worst.

I like the USPSA rulebook the way it is currently written. The only problem is the lack of Revolver participation, and I admit I tend to be one of the most flagrant offenders in that regard. At least for now. I fear the revolver is dead in IDPA. They had a great chance to make things happen and then they blew it. They split the division and then didn't bother to enforce their own rules. When I see a chronograph at a major match and ALL ESR shooters being held accountable to 165 PF, maybe then I'll reconsider. ICORE is still good if you're into the equipment race but I think they still have the "factory barrel length and configuration" rule.

I'm trying to be optimistic, but it's not easy!

Dave Sinko

[Tom E]

Since this has come up, it seems 8 shot revolvers would fit in with single stack very nicely. Might ruffle some feathers though.

Nah, you might be able to beat some of the local yutzes, but an 8-round revo would never be truly competitive against a field of competent single-stackers.

I have always thought it would be interesting to allow 8-rounders to play in Revo. I have thought about it a lot, and I think a 627 scored minor would be roughly equivalent to a 625 scored major. At first blush you would think the extra rounds would be determinative, but when you factor in the scoring difference, and the slightly faster reloads of the 625, it would be pretty dang close. As I said earlier, it's fun to consider, but in the final analysis it would create the impression (if not a reality) of an equipment race. And Revo Division is not supposed to be an equipment race.

I think we have our USPSA rules set where they should be right now. Six rounds between reloads, no ports or comps, iron sights. And to drift this back toward the thread topic, as it turned out, nothing works better in USPSA Revo than a plain-Jane 5" 625 with a good action job.

I agree and disagree. An 8 shot revo with a 125 pf, scored major, our other revo rules except no round restriction, would be ok in single stack. Wouldn't dominate. If it did that would cause big problems, but would be the best fit in our existing structure. And a better fit than production or limited 10. Would give guys, and gals, with a 8 shot revo their best shot within the existing structure.

[Carmoney]

I'm trying to be optimistic, but it's not easy!

Revolver continues to be fairly popular in IDPA in a few specific areas of the country, notably the northeast. That indoor match at S&W's own range seems to attract a lot of wheels, and I suspect seeing a bunch of 4" 625s in the house may be one reason why they decided to keep the 4" JM version in the product line. I would be surprised if they actually sold more 4" guns nationwide, though, I know I see a helluva lot more 5" specimens on the market.

I'm guessing S&W will continue making some sort of 5" or longer 625 and sell it through the Performance Center where they can achieve a much higher margin on each unit.

With all those retro revolvers (21, 22, 1917, 3" 25) being re-introduced, I was really hoping that S&W was heading in the right direction with its product line. I figured we were about to see a 6.5" 25-2 back in the line-up! On the other hand, some of their recent introductions have been completely idiotic. A Model 60 with a 5" barrel? Gimme a frickin' break. How they can discontinue the 625 and yet still make revolvers in comparatively oddball calibers like .32 H&R Mag. and .41 Mag. doesn't make any sense to me.

[kruger]

How they can discontinue the 625 and yet still make revolvers in comparatively oddball calibers like .32 H&R Mag. and .41 Mag. doesn't make any sense to me.

You are thinking like a shooter, not a collector.

Change your mindset to that of someone who has a safe crammed full of guns, all of them different. Another 625 isn't interesting. A revolver in some oddball caliber... now that is unusual and worth buying.

There are a whole lot more collectors out there than shooters. It makes some sense for S&W to cater to that segment of the community from a sales standpoint.

[Carlos]

What is the trend with S&W? Those of us who shoot revolvers a lot and believe in them seem to be finding that these alloy frames aren't holding up to even moderate use. There is only bad news here and I fear it will get worse.

Ruger does not offer a single revolver that is viable for high level USPSA competition. They despise customers who will modify their guns and will not even service anything that has been given custom work. Trust me, I know all about this. And I think we all know that Taurus is not as good as S&W is even at their worst.

Dave Sinko

re: Scandium - no argument here as to durability. I carry a 340PD with the early Scandium cylinder. I understand that S&W has now discontinued using that metal for cylinders and current guns come with a blackened stainless cylinder. Plus, during the ICORE I shot with it, extraction was sticky and not reliable.

re Taurus and Ruger: I am not argueing the status quo (in fact, see my tag line). My hope is that in the future, both companies will get a clue as to how important competition and customer service can be to their bottom line & that they start paying more attention to us.

I guess I am still on the optimistic side as far as the possibilities. Hope Ruger & Taurus are reading this forum.

[AZ38super]

It is amazing how many people think we make a difference as competition shooters.

To the large manufactures of guns, bullets, powder and so on we make up very little in sales percentage in the overall picture.

Talking with one of the larger gun/bullet manufactures it was said that we "as in competition shooting sports" make up only 2% or less of their sales.

It's about numbers and we don't have them...... even when we think we do.

[vrmn1]

How they can discontinue the 625 and yet still make revolvers in comparatively oddball calibers like .32 H&R Mag. and .41 Mag. doesn't make any sense to me.

Oddball to you but they are both intensly popular in other circles.

I have friends that think I am some sort of a deviant for putting f/o front blades on my guns, cut half the hammer away and shoot IPSC.

I don't like that Smith is doing away with the 625 or making it a PC gun either but I would hate to see these other calibers going away.

The 41 may be the best handgun deer round available. And the 32 magnum is hard on small game.

I really find it strange as much as Smith backs competitive shooting they are doing away with "THE" IPSC revovler but I am sure it will be back soon. Just like the 610. I bet the 610 don't last long this time either.

[41mag]

I'm trying to be optimistic, but it's not easy!

Revolver continues to be fairly popular in IDPA in a few specific areas of the country, notably the northeast. That indoor match at S&W's own range seems to attract a lot of wheels, and I suspect seeing a bunch of 4" 625s in the house may be one reason why they decided to keep the 4" JM version in the product line. I would be surprised if they actually sold more 4" guns nationwide, though, I know I see a helluva lot more 5" specimens on the market.

I'm guessing S&W will continue making some sort of 5" or longer 625 and sell it through the Performance Center where they can achieve a much higher margin on each unit.

With all those retro revolvers (21, 22, 1917, 3" 25) being re-introduced, I was really hoping that S&W was heading in the right direction with its product line. I figured we were about to see a 6.5" 25-2 back in the line-up! On the other hand, some of their recent introductions have been completely idiotic. A Model 60 with a 5" barrel? Gimme a frickin' break. How they can discontinue the 625 and yet still make revolvers in comparatively oddball calibers like .32 H&R Mag. and .41 Mag. doesn't make any sense to me.

oddball? I have a .32 also!

41mag

[Pin Shooter]

It is amazing how many people think we make a difference as competition shooters.

To the large manufactures of guns, bullets, powder and so on we make up very little in sales percentage in the overall picture.

Talking with one of the larger gun/bullet manufactures it was said that we "as in competition shooting sports" make up only 2% or less of their sales.

It's about numbers and we don't have them...... even when we think we do.

Sad, but very true.................

[rr4406pak]

For what it's worth...

Just finished the S&W IDPA Nats and out of about 330 shooters about 50 were shooting revos.

Not bad...

[Pin Shooter]

For what it's worth...

Just finished the S&W IDPA Nats and out of about 330 shooters about 50 were shooting revos.

Not bad...

Is you avatar from Mad Max 3?

[rr4406pak]

Avatar is the Humongous (sp?) from the Road Warrior.

"LEAVE THE GAS AND WALK AWAY!"

Love that guy...

[Pin Shooter]

I think that was called Mad Max 3 in Aus....Mel Gibson right?

Avatar is the Humongous (sp?) from the Road Warrior.

"LEAVE THE GAS AND WALK AWAY!"

Love that guy...

[rr4406pak]

Yep, you got it!