Ramas Posted February 13, 2008 Share Posted February 13, 2008 LOL, that's a lot of posts about two shots... You know, this is about when GOD becomes just human Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rgkeller Posted February 13, 2008 Share Posted February 13, 2008 Well, EG said he had the flu the week before, was working hard at SHOT and was having a personal problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XRe Posted February 13, 2008 Share Posted February 13, 2008 No one is superhuman. No one is unbeatable. No one should be put on a pedestal over others simply because they've had a good track record. .... and no one should make excuses... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bigbadaboom Posted February 14, 2008 Share Posted February 14, 2008 No one is superhuman. No one is unbeatable. No one should be put on a pedestal over others simply because they've had a good track record. .... and no one should make excuses... Absolutely 100% correct. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spook Posted February 14, 2008 Share Posted February 14, 2008 No one is superhuman. No one is unbeatable. No one should be put on a pedestal over others simply because they've had a good track record. .... and no one should make excuses... Agreed with the excuses. Eric stated on the Global Village that he didn't want to make any excuses. He was very clear that Max is a great shooter and that Eric losing was bound to happen after 9 (friggin') years of straight wins. And had he hit that popper (or, would it have fallen, or whatever), I would have still been surprized. Because no on ever came that close to Eric (in Open) since 1998. Let alone win. It's about time thing got a little more exciting in matches where Eric participates! I mean, waiting on the outcome used to be more predictable than a Limited match with TGO in in... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skywalker Posted February 14, 2008 Share Posted February 14, 2008 .... and no one should make excuses... There's a big difference between making excuses and plain reporting what happened to you (when asked), IMHO. Making excuses is when you say "... I didn't win because I was sick ... I was having sunlight in my eyes ... I have been distracted or whatever". Honestly telling anybody else "... my mental game was not that strong as always for the following reasons, and a guy who shot better won ..." is not making excuses, in my book. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Julien Boit Posted February 14, 2008 Share Posted February 14, 2008 There's a big difference between making excuses and plain reporting what happened to you (when asked), IMHO.Making excuses is when you say "... I didn't win because I was sick ... I was having sunlight in my eyes ... I have been distracted or whatever". Honestly telling anybody else "... my mental game was not that strong as always for the following reasons, and a guy who shot better won ..." is not making excuses, in my book. X2 Eric is a true sportsman. He have so much experience that if he said that he thought he shot that popper, I have no reason not to believe him. Poppers are poppers and they sometimes just don't fell even when hit at the right spot. Asking for calibration is what 99.9% of shooters would have asked for in this situation. Taking that penalty and all that goes with it is the mark of his sportsmanship. Spook : I think Saul came very very close to Eric a couple of years ago (maybe it was a MedCup three or four years ago). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XRe Posted February 14, 2008 Share Posted February 14, 2008 Honestly telling anybody else "... my mental game was not that strong as always for the following reasons, and a guy who shot better won ..." is not making excuses, in my book. That's just as much making an excuse as anything else. And stating "I don't want to make excuses ... but ..." implies that one does want to make excuses. These are the things we give away with our external communications. Its a normal, natural thing to do. It doesn't imply that someone is less capable, or less of a "sportsman", because they do it. It does, however, show a weakness in the mental game, and communicating in that fashion only sets up further doubt and failure. It obviously remains to be seen how this will motivate the World Champ for the rest of his season - hopefully, positively. I'd love to see a huge battle in Indonesia as much as the next guy! I wonder why you guys feel so defensive about it? Living vicariously through Eric, are we? If you guys are thinking that I'm somehow condeming Eric, or accusing him of somehow being a bad sport, I would respectfully request that you read my posts again.... I didn't see anything that would cause me to think anything negative about him in that regard... Let me give you the opposite example... I've discussed my less than stellar showing at the FL Open with several folks, and found them making excuses for me. I've repeatedly rejected their notions, although I appreciate their thoughts and why they present them to me. They're really not of any use in improving my game, the folks saying them are just trying to help me feel better. I placed 5th overall in the match, had a total of 26 Ds and 7 Mikes in the match, and shot a total of 83.1% of available points (including miss penalties). That happened entirely because I did not do my job driving the gun to the fullest of my ability. Plain and simple. I take full ownership and responsibility for that performance. I also take full ownership of the knowledge that it imparted to me about areas I can improve. I was beaten by four shooters who turned in far better performances than I was apparently capable of last weekend - all four are good shooters and respectable sportsmen. They beat me because they brought a superior game than I had, and they utilized it. Good on 'em - and I hope to give each of them a better showing of my skills next time we meet up. See the difference there? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spook Posted February 14, 2008 Share Posted February 14, 2008 Hm, I agreed with your comment that no one should make excuses. But I have to disagree on this one. Eric was asked what happened, because he lost. Well there are reasons for him not winning, just like there are reasons for Chris Tilley, or any other shooter not winning. If you are asked, why did you not win, what would you have to say? Any answer is either tautological or an excuse (at least, according to your logic) I am not living vicariously through Eric, BTW. To me, he is just a great shooter from another country, like Max I cannot vouch for Julien though I do get the feeling that you think we're taking something away from Max. I'm not. Max is an awesome shooter and I had him and Eric as favorites for the last World Shoot. I do have some theories to believe why Eric lost Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CAB33 Posted February 14, 2008 Share Posted February 14, 2008 If you are asked, why did you not win, what would you have to say? Someone shot better than I did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skywalker Posted February 14, 2008 Share Posted February 14, 2008 (edited) That's just as much making an excuse as anything else. Obviously we are in disagreement on this, as on several other things (I'm not at all defensive about Eric, and I don't think I'll ever live vicariously through anybody else, as I too take full responsibility for my faults and pride for my accomplishments). BTW, you probably missed part of what I said a guy who shot better won ..." is not making excuses, in my book. Anyway, this probably is a discussion which is not useful to carry on ... Edited February 14, 2008 by Skywalker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rgkeller Posted February 14, 2008 Share Posted February 14, 2008 Max won because, on the last stage with everything on the line and under the greatest of pressure, he smoked everyone. And picked up 12 1/2 points on the leader. There is not a great deal of difference between Michel and Grauffel. It will come down to confidence and dealing with the pressure on the final stages. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shay1911 Posted February 14, 2008 Share Posted February 14, 2008 (edited) That's just as much making an excuse as anything else. Obviously we are in disagreement on this, as on several other things (I'm not at all defensive about Eric, and I don't think I'll ever live vicariously through anybody else, as I too take full responsibility for my faults and pride for my accomplishments). BTW, you probably missed part of what I said a guy who shot better won ..." is not making excuses, in my book. Anyway, this probably is a discussion which is not useful to carry on ... I went through the results and here's some interesting stuff: Stage Eric Max Chris 1____2___3___1 2____1___3___2 3____2___1___3 4____2___1___3 5____2___1___3 6____1___2___3 7____1___2___3 8____2___7___4 9____4___1___2 10___1___2___6 11___2___1___2 12___3___1___2 Total _23__25__37 Notice that Max won six stages, Eric won four and Chris won one. I think that is amazingly close and both shot extremely well. I think they put on a great show while shooting and while talking to others. I was very impressed with the politeness and respect they were showing everyone around. If Eric would have dropped that popper, he would have won the match by four points. If Max had a better time on stage 8, he would have been up ten points. Edited February 14, 2008 by Shay1911 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XRe Posted February 14, 2008 Share Posted February 14, 2008 Eric was asked what happened, because he lost. Well there are reasons for him not winning, just like there are reasons for Chris Tilley, or any other shooter not winning. If you are asked, why did you not win, what would you have to say? Any answer is either tautological or an excuse (at least, according to your logic) I'm probably not communicating what I'm getting at very well... In response to a question of "What happened?" (meaning, why didn't you win"), how is saying "Someone else shot better than I did at that point in time" tautological? Certainly, its not an excuse? Anyhow... I do get the feeling that you think we're taking something away from Max. I'm not. Max is an awesome shooter and I had him and Eric as favorites for the last World Shoot. Totally not - I'm sorry if I gave you that impression. I was more reacting (originally - way up in the thread) to the comment to the effect of "GOD has become human", which is just silly... Max doesn't even factor into that at all... Max is a big boy, he can take whatever accolades and deragotory statements that come his way without me sticking up for him What I was trying to point out, though, is that responding to a question of "Why didn't you win" with basically "I wasn't motivated, and I was tired, and I'm having personal issues" and then saying "but those aren't an excuse" (paraphrasing...), is just like making those excuses in the first place - at least, that's how our internal minds hear it and process it. This is important from a self-talk perspective. My concern for Eric would be that communicating those things in the fashion he did gives them greater (negative) power internally, and may be sowing the seeds for future issues in his mind game. I do have some theories to believe why Eric lost Other than the objective scoring of the event, I have no other ideas. He had one penalty, Max had none, and that seemed to be the pivotal swing from my perspective. Otherwise, both guys shot good matches, as near as I could tell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XRe Posted February 14, 2008 Share Posted February 14, 2008 BTW, you probably missed part of what I said a guy who shot better won ..." is not making excuses, in my book. Didn't miss it, Luca. If that's all he'd said, of course I'd agree with you. But... it wasn't... Obviously, though, I'm not making my point clearly, so, yeah, I agree that it's not worth discussing if its not getting across to you. Re: the "vicariously" thing - don't forget about smilies and what they mean, man I was only ribbing you! I'll try to be more clear with my humor... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spook Posted February 14, 2008 Share Posted February 14, 2008 (edited) In response to a question of "What happened?" (meaning, why didn't you win"), how is saying "Someone else shot better than I did at that point in time" tautological? Certainly, its not an excuse? That is pure tautology. That's even more abstract than saying: "Max had more match points than Eric when the match was over" It doesn't explain anything. Come on, the guy hasn't lost in almost 10 years and last time he shot the Florida Open he won by a 10% margin. Last time Eric and Max met there was a gap of almost 6%. I can imagine someone being curious what the cicumstances were. I had a little "WTF happened" moment myself, and I don't even track his results. Just like I had when I heard Rob got beat by Sevigny, with a Glock. I was more reacting (originally - way up in the thread) to the comment to the effect of "GOD has become human", which is just silly... Let me point out again that I have no reason to be biased towards Grauffel. But somehow I can understand comments like that. I mean, how is that different than calling Leatham TGO? I'm sorry, but I am sensing some bias. I have never seen any "shooter-bashing" on these forums (and I thank the Lord for that), but to me it's just awkward that the one time the greatest IPSC Open shooter of this era gets defeated (by an American shooter) the posts become a little.... Team America. BTW, my theory of why Eric lost is that this match (from what I have seen) was a pretty straight forward match. Meaning, there are not many solutions for the stages. Eric is a master in stage strategy and my belief is that he wins in that department more than in any other. I even think he is "just" top ten in pure shooting skills, when there are no extremely tough shots involved. But his strategy and mental game and match management are just really a notch above the rest. If you take the stage strategy and match management out of the equation, there is not much left but just the shooting and judging by the stages, pretty straight forward shooting. See if you can get a copy of Saul Kirsch's 2003 US Nationals. He has a mini interview with Eric and asks him about the differences between matches in the US and Europe are. The answer lies there I think. Edited February 14, 2008 by spook Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
outerlimits Posted February 14, 2008 Share Posted February 14, 2008 bottom line is the best shooter that day won the match...period. congrats to max! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caps Posted February 14, 2008 Share Posted February 14, 2008 Eric is a great shooter. Max is a great shooter. The difference is that Eric has won three World Shoots. Max has never won a World Shoot, but he'll have another chance in Bali this year. May the best man win. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spook Posted February 14, 2008 Share Posted February 14, 2008 bottom line is the best shooter that day won the match...period. congrats to max! +1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carmoney Posted February 14, 2008 Share Posted February 14, 2008 ......to me it's just awkward that the one time the greatest IPSC Open shooter of this era gets defeated (by an American shooter) the posts become a little.... Team America. With all the misguided anti-American garbage emanating from the rest of the world these days, Spook, can you really blame us? Anyway, congratuations to the victors. I see Ricardo Lopez took Revolver Division this year at the Open--congratutions to Ricky for a great performance! I would love to get down to FL myself again one of these years and see if I could give him a run for it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rgkeller Posted February 14, 2008 Share Posted February 14, 2008 "BTW, my theory of why Eric lost is that this match (from what I have seen) was a pretty straight forward match. Meaning, there are not many solutions for the stages." You did not see enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
L9X25 Posted February 14, 2008 Share Posted February 14, 2008 You did not see enough. +100 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted February 14, 2008 Share Posted February 14, 2008 I got lost on ...logic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben Stoeger Posted February 14, 2008 Share Posted February 14, 2008 What I was trying to point out, though, is that responding to a question of "Why didn't you win" with basically "I wasn't motivated, and I was tired, and I'm having personal issues" and then saying "but those aren't an excuse" (paraphrasing...), is just like making those excuses in the first place - at least, that's how our internal minds hear it and process it. This is important from a self-talk perspective. My concern for Eric would be that communicating those things in the fashion he did gives them greater (negative) power internally, and may be sowing the seeds for future issues in his mind game. Excuse: to regard or judge with forgiveness or indulgence; pardon or forgive; overlook (a fault, error, etc.) Reason: a basis or cause, as for some belief, action, fact, event, etc. XRE, From what I am reading here, Eric was asked for why he lost, and said why. (giving a reason) I don't think he wanted people to think he really should have won, or whatever(he didn't try to excuse his loss). You seem to be doing a great job of giving some insight on his mental game, but I am pretty sure he knows what he is doing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Suber Posted February 14, 2008 Share Posted February 14, 2008 You did not see enough. +100 +1000. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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