What makes a $2,000 pistol better?

[zhunter]

The second is that shooting to me is an experience not solely gauged (thankfully) by where I place in the results. There is something intrinsically satisfying about operating a custom or semi custom pistol that goes beyond its usefulness as a tool. I love the way that a slide operates on a custom gun, I have a deep appreciation for the craftsmanship that goes into building a precision instrument, of the dedication required to hand fit parts and to create something that is aesthetically pleasing at the same time.

Personally, I love the feel of my 1911/2011's

Just the timing of that tuned gun in my hand as it runs like a swiss clock. I also take pride in my "fine" custom guns.

And as has been hashed out 10^23 times before on the internet, the price of the gun is really inconsequential to the rest of the costs of the sport. I say buy whatever suits your fancy and shoot it. Your gas, ammo, and hotel bill will easily outstrip the price of any Open gun in the first year. You might as well shoot EXACTLY what you want and what you like doing it.

This should be a sticky for every time someone tries to whine about the price of a small item. Let's face it, not that a $2000 gun is a small item, but the gun is a commodity, you will get your money back IF you buy quality, but the cost of the gun is SMALL in comparison to "feeding" it!!!

Edited January 27, 2008 by zhunter

[38superman]

Man oh man. So many things to say. And there sure are an awful lot of emotional and sensitve people on this forum. I'll be gentle.

Let me just throw these out there....

1. Does that 2k limited gun intrinsically shoot any faster than your Glock/HK/Sig/Beretta?

2. Is it functionally more accurate?

3. Will it make up for not practicing?

4. When you ask people on enos.com what makes that 2k gun so much better, can you get a single, empirical, data based response?

It's easy to say "well, Sevigny is the only guy rocking the house with the Glock....he must be an anomaly." Agreed that Mr. Sevigny could do great with a wrist rocket and a bag of marbles while wearing a welder's helmet.

There are some folks (some even on this very forum!) that, although not quite Mr. Sevigny, aren't slouches with Glocks and Berettas and CZs. If you take the ego and "cool" and "sexy" out of it, the logical argument for a 2k limited gun rapidly loses steam.

No disrespect intended towards any gunsmiths out there making their living building 2k limited guns.

FY42385

Let me respond this way.

Is a racegun intrinsically faster?

For me, yes it is.

This is not speculation.

I have run numerous drills with every gun I own side by side and kept records in a spread sheet.

My draws, reloads and overall times are about 10 to 15% faster with my SVI or my STI than with my XD.

Empirical data available on request.

Is it more accurate?

I do meticulous load development keeping group size on each load and cumulative group size on each gun.

The most accurate gun I own is a custom 1911 followed closely by my SVI limited gun.

I haven't documented enough loads to support any conclusions regarding the XD.

Will it make up for not practicing?

No gun will make up for not practicing, but I think the race gun will be slightly more forgiving.

Is the differential worth the extra money?

For me it is. I need every advantage I can get.

The difference in the cost of a production gun and a race gun is a drop in the proverbial bucket compared to the overall cost of this sport.

Tony

Edited January 27, 2008 by 38superman

[SA Friday]

Man oh man. So many things to say. And there sure are an awful lot of emotional and sensitve people on this forum. I'll be gentle.

Let me just throw these out there....

1. Does that 2k limited gun intrinsically shoot any faster than your Glock/HK/Sig/Beretta? Yes

2. Is it functionally more accurate? My STI Edge is more accurate than any of my 6 Glocks, and this isn't because of comfort either. I rarely shoot my STI.

3. Will it make up for not practicing? I had to think about this one. The easy answer is no, but after thinking about it, I would have to say Yes, a little.

4. When you ask people on enos.com what makes that 2k gun so much better, can you get a single, empirical, data based response? No, but that's what makes it a worth while question

It's easy to say "well, Sevigny is the only guy rocking the house with the Glock....he must be an anomaly." Actually, this is rarely said anywhere on this forum. There IS the standard indian not the arrow response though. Agreed that Mr. Sevigny could do great with a wrist rocket and a bag of marbles while wearing a welder's helmet.

There are some folks (some even on this very forum!) that, although not quite Mr. Sevigny, aren't slouches with Glocks and Berettas and CZs. I absolutely agree, but my original point still stands, the gund does make a difference. If you take the ego and "cool" and "sexy" out of it, the logical argument for a 2k limited gun rapidly loses steam. I don't think so. The evidence shows otherwise.

No disrespect intended towards any gunsmiths out there making their living building 2k limited guns.

FY42385

No malice in any of my responses. I simply think many are too anxious to overlook the shooting platform as a significant factor in shooting, especially at the top end of GM. Look at the results. S_I's all over and then a few offball manufacturer guns. It just cannot be simply dismissed.

Is anyone here really going to say that the $1000 +/- more for a S_I can be overcome by the ammo one could buy with what was saved and still come out at the same skill level? How about $2500-$3000 worth of ammo and instruction? Maybe?

I love shooting my Glocks in Production. Hell, I even have a G24 for Lim/L-10. I would have been better served saving every penny I put into the G24 and bought an S_I. For the additional investment into an S-I, I would have saved more in ammo and learned faster. Hind sight is 20/20. Still no malice .

[Flexmoney]

Man, can you all dance! Let me toss this out there: in Limited/L-10/or Open Divisions, just who is shooting a Glock or any other composite framed platform winning major events? I really don't know for a fact that anyone other than Sevigny is capable. So, wouldn't it be reasonable to conclude that Sevigny is an anomaly and the gun DOES matter?

Sorry, I can't dance, but I love a good discussion.

There is a crack in your crock...and it's leaking all over my shoes. lol

So the guns matters...and the STI is "the way"?

Leatham...Springfield

TJ...Para

Travis....Caspian

Manny...STI

Strader...STI

Taran...SV

Henning...Tangfolio

Sevigny...Glock

I think that covers the Limited division winners...or the "good money" favorites from the Area matches and the Nationals from last year?

[zhunter]

Man, can you all dance! Let me toss this out there: in Limited/L-10/or Open Divisions, just who is shooting a Glock or any other composite framed platform winning major events? I really don't know for a fact that anyone other than Sevigny is capable. So, wouldn't it be reasonable to conclude that Sevigny is an anomaly and the gun DOES matter?

Sorry, I can't dance, but I love a good discussion.

There is a crack in your crock...and it's leaking all over my shoes. lol

So the guns matters...and the STI is "the way"?

Leatham...Springfield

TJ...Para

Travis....Caspian

Manny...STI

Strader...STI

Taran...SV

Henning...Tangfolio

Sevigny...Glock

I think that covers the Limited division winners...or the "good money" favorites from the Area matches and the Nationals from last year?

True, but all but one of those are Steel/Metal framed guns.

I think many times we talk about S_I when we should be referring to 1911 based platforms

Edited January 27, 2008 by zhunter

[SA Friday]

Man, can you all dance! Let me toss this out there: in Limited/L-10/or Open Divisions, just who is shooting a Glock or any other composite framed platform winning major events? I really don't know for a fact that anyone other than Sevigny is capable. So, wouldn't it be reasonable to conclude that Sevigny is an anomaly and the gun DOES matter?

Sorry, I can't dance, but I love a good discussion.

There is a crack in your crock...and it's leaking all over my shoes. lol

So the guns matters...and the STI is "the way"?

Leatham...Springfield double stack 1911

TJ...Para double stack 1911

Travis....Caspian double stack 1911 (I think that's what you are refering to here, but could be wrong)

Manny...STI double stack 1911

Strader...STI double stack 1911

Taran...SV double stack 1911

Henning...Tangfolio (hmmm, definately not a 1911, but definately not a polymer frame either)

Sevigny...Glock

I think that covers the Limited division winners...or the "good money" favorites from the Area matches and the Nationals from last year?

I don't think that the STI per se is the way, but there is an undeniable trend in what I see up there.

[zhunter]

Man, can you all dance! Let me toss this out there: in Limited/L-10/or Open Divisions, just who is shooting a Glock or any other composite framed platform winning major events? I really don't know for a fact that anyone other than Sevigny is capable. So, wouldn't it be reasonable to conclude that Sevigny is an anomaly and the gun DOES matter?

Sorry, I can't dance, but I love a good discussion.

There is a crack in your crock...and it's leaking all over my shoes. lol

So the guns matters...and the STI is "the way"?

Leatham...Springfield double stack 1911

TJ...Para double stack 1911

Travis....Caspian double stack 1911 (I think that's what you are refering to here, but could be wrong)

Manny...STI double stack 1911

Strader...STI double stack 1911

Taran...SV double stack 1911

Henning...Tangfolio (hmmm, definately not a 1911, but definately not a polymer frame either)

Sevigny...Glock

I think that covers the Limited division winners...or the "good money" favorites from the Area matches and the Nationals from last year?

I don't think that the STI per se is the way, but there is an undeniable trend in what I see up there.

HA HA, beat ya to it!!!!

[SA Friday]

Man, can you all dance! Let me toss this out there: in Limited/L-10/or Open Divisions, just who is shooting a Glock or any other composite framed platform winning major events? I really don't know for a fact that anyone other than Sevigny is capable. So, wouldn't it be reasonable to conclude that Sevigny is an anomaly and the gun DOES matter?

Sorry, I can't dance, but I love a good discussion.

There is a crack in your crock...and it's leaking all over my shoes. lol

So the guns matters...and the STI is "the way"?

Leatham...Springfield double stack 1911

TJ...Para double stack 1911

Travis....Caspian double stack 1911 (I think that's what you are refering to here, but could be wrong)

Manny...STI double stack 1911

Strader...STI double stack 1911

Taran...SV double stack 1911

Henning...Tangfolio (hmmm, definately not a 1911, but definately not a polymer frame either)

Sevigny...Glock

I think that covers the Limited division winners...or the "good money" favorites from the Area matches and the Nationals from last year?

I don't think that the STI per se is the way, but there is an undeniable trend in what I see up there.

HA HA, beat ya to it!!!!

Ya, but I was gettin all fancy with the colors.

[Flexmoney]

True, but all but one of those are Steel/Metal framed guns.

And half of them have plastic grips !

[el pres]

Alright its like showing up to a Porshe Ferrari race with a 85 IROC slightly modified.

If your good, your good and you will beat some, mabey all those guys but if all your skills

are the same the cars are whats left...

[Loves2Shoot]

1 non single action, non steel framed gun in the group you listed, but you left out a few names that could take any match, Max, Ted, Chris, Angus, Blake, Seeklander, Voight, and (he gets no respect ) Phil.

Some folks get paid to shoot a particular platform, so the support that comes with that may balance the tool they have to use as part of that agreement.

Edited January 27, 2008 by Loves2Shoot

[Flexmoney]

SA...you said the gun "does" matter.

I wonder what would happen if we gave Travis, Phil, and Taran Glocks (along with Dave) and put them up against the others? Maybe bring in Eric G. and his Tangfolio to shoot with Henning in Limited (Eric G. has placed in the top5 at our Lim Nats). We probably ought to throw Bob Vogel in the mix (I think he may have just made GM in Open with a Glock...wthout a red dot on it )

I'll bet we'd get...a whole lot of the same.

[Will Abrahams]

try both and see which you shoot better with...then go with that one.

to answer the original question: the only thing that makes a $2000 dollar gun worth it is if you can shoot it better

personally, i shoot significantly better with the 1911/2011 platform. i REALLY wish i shot better with the glock, sure would save a TON of money!

Edited January 27, 2008 by W.Abrahams

[SA Friday]

Alright its like showing up to a Porshe Ferrari race with a 85 IROC slightly modified.

If your good, your good and you will beat some, mabey all those guys but if all your skills

are the same the cars are whats left...

Kind of, but I think it's more like taking two baseball players and teaching them to hit, one using a wooden bat and the other an aluminium bat. The guy with aluminium bat has the distinct advantage, will learn faster, and will hit the ball further. This doesn't mean the guy with the wooden bat cannot win, but the guy with the aluminium bat will spend more initially, but not ever have to replace it. Where as the guy with the wooden bat is going to have to spend more over time to buy more wooden bats. Other than inital cost, I just cannot see a down side to getting the aluminium bat, the double stack 1911.

[Flexmoney]

1 non single action, non steel framed gun in the group you listed, but you left out a few names that could take any match, Max, Ted, Chris, Angus, Blake, Seeklander, Voight, and (he gets no respect ) Phil.

Umm...I listed Phil.

And. I listed the guys that won the big matches last year.

I added in a few that are favorites for the top 5...you rounded out the top 10 (sure, they could all win).

[Flexmoney]

Some folks get paid to shoot a particular platform, so the support that comes with that may balance the tool they have to use as part of that agreement.

Kinda like that STI contingency money?

[SA Friday]

SA...you said the gun "does" matter.

I wonder what would happen if we gave Travis, Phil, and Taran Glocks (along with Dave) and put them up against the others? Maybe bring in Eric G. and his Tangfolio to shoot with Henning in Limited (Eric G. has placed in the top5 at our Lim Nats). We probably ought to throw Bob Vogel in the mix (I think he may have just made GM in Open with a Glock...wthout a red dot on it )

I'll bet we'd get...a whole lot of the same.

I would love to see the results of something like this. I would propose a better test: Have them all shoot a Glock and see what the standings are, have them all shoot 1911 double stacks and see what the results are, and then have them shoot the opposite of what they are used to shooting and see what the results are. I would surmise the 1911 double stacks would come out on top.

I guess my opinion on this is two-fold: the 1911 double stacks are easier and faster to learn with, and with all the choices out there, the top shooters are consistantly choosing (those that have chosen vs being sponsered into a platform) and winning with the 1911 double stacks over other viable platforms.

I need an emotioncon for 'stirring the pot' on this thread I guess.

[Flexmoney]

They aren't just choosing anything. They are choosing the STI. And, a HUGE part of that is the contingency money.

If you all want to talk triggers...get in touch with a Tangfolio.

[SA Friday]

They aren't just choosing anything. They are choosing the STI. And, a HUGE part of that is the contingency money.

So, how many do you think would bail from their STIs for a Glock if Glock offered the same contingency program?

That would be like asking ZH to give up his 1911 for.... well, a glock I'll make that trade. I gotta a sweet G24 all set up.

[Loves2Shoot]

Kinda like that STI contingency money?

Yep, That is why I shoot don't use them

I just shoot for fun right now and I want to be able to wear what I want and shoot what I want

If I were to get serious about competitions I might look for money, but I would rather make my own money so I can do what I want.

This year at the bigger matches I shot:

SV L10

SV Limited

XD 4" Production

XD 5" Production ESP

Tanfoglio Elite Match ESP

Glock 34

Caspain .40 L10

Caspian .40 hi cap Limited

Caspian .45 SS

I also played around with the CZ's a bunch and like that platform.

Out of those I definitely prefer the single actions (or a good XD action) to the Glock action.

The Tangfoglio is a $500 gun that shoots great once it's gone through and I actually chose it over other custom 2011's for ESP this, year and I was able to take high over all at the Oregon IDPA State Championship match with it in my 4th IDPA match.

To me the Glock versus STI is silly, because they shoot differently. If you prefer the Glock it will be fine for you. I don't like the grip size, slide bite and the trigger, but that's my taste, and I prefer to shoot guns that I don't have to worry about those issues. The less distance I have to move my trigger finger the less chance there is for me to make a mistake while working the trigger.

The cost of the pistol is very small in this sport, even expensive ones.

[38superman]

SA...you said the gun "does" matter.

I wonder what would happen if we gave Travis, Phil, and Taran Glocks (along with Dave) and put them up against the others? Maybe bring in Eric G. and his Tangfolio to shoot with Henning in Limited (Eric G. has placed in the top5 at our Lim Nats). We probably ought to throw Bob Vogel in the mix (I think he may have just made GM in Open with a Glock...wthout a red dot on it )

I'll bet we'd get...a whole lot of the same.

If you want to speculate, I wonder what Leatham would shoot if he didn't work for Springfield.

What would Jarrett shoot if he didn't work for Para?

Maybe exactly what they shoot now. Maybe not.

When shooters reach that skill level, in no longers matters whose logo is stamped on the slide.

Case in point. Julie hasn't missed a beat since she moved from Glock to Smith & Wesson

When I am deciding what I want to shoot, I don't base it on Travis, Phil or Taran.

Those guys can shoot anything well.

I want to shoot what I shoot best.

2011, unequivocally, hands down, without a doubt, 2011.

Tony

Edited January 28, 2008 by 38superman

[zhunter]

try both and see which you shoot better with...then go with that one.

to answer the original question: the only thing that makes a $2000 dollar gun worth it is if you can shoot it better

Exactly!!

That would be like asking ZH to give up his 1911 for.... well, a glock I'll make that trade. I gotta a sweet G24 all set up.

YEAH, like that is gonna happen

The cost of the pistol is very small in this sport, even expensive ones.

CORRECT I believe I stated that earlier. The bullets, brass, primers, powder, entry fees, gas money, hotels, airfares, did I leave anything out, et. al. MORE than dwarf the cost of a gun by mid- August for most of us!!!!!

[AustinMike]

In capable hands, the tupperware guns can smoke! I think there is probably more of a learning curve on the Glock and other striker fired guns to learn good trigger pull technique. Now, I'll probably get an S_I Limited gun one of these days because they're dead sexy. I won't let myself yet because I don't think I'm shooting the Glock any where near it's potential. It's not the gun's fault, it's mine and as I've heard others say, it makes no sense to throw hardware at a software problem. Having a nice crisp trigger might help me with some of my issues, but it won't fix everything. For what it's worth I have a really nice SVI based open gun that's been sitting in the safe the past year. I shot a steel match today with a refurbished G17 that I paid $335 for. The grip angle of Glock just doesn't work for some people though. YMMV. You gotta like what you shoot and if shooting a $2000+ makes you happy and motivates you to practice, go for it!

[Ron Ankeny]

Flex:

I have been thinking this over and I have concluded the Glock is probably the best gun on the planet. Afterall, if you can shoot well with a Glock, you can probably shoot anything...except maybe a Hi-Point.

[BSeevers]

I have concluded the Glock is probably the best gun on the planet.

HERESY

(He didn't mean it JMB)