Stupid Mistake.....dq'ed @ Area 6

[PaulW]

Ok, I'm still shakin my head on this one. Get to the match in plenty of time. Shoot the plate rack a few times, everything feels good. Get to the first stage (stage 7), which is a burn it down stage, get it all programmed in. So I start the stage and fired 12 rounds and on the 13th round nothing happens. i look down and see that the hammer has followed, I rack the slide, hammer follows again, rack the slide hammer follows again. By now I am pretty perplexed because this has never happened to me. I'm think what do I do? So I thumb the hammer back (stop laughing)....I thought I felt the sear and hammer engage....WRONG...BOOM!! Well it went right into the berm and the R/O stops me. I'm thinking cool, re-shoot. WRONG...DQ. Unsafe gun handling. 10.1.2.3...blah, blah, blah, remedial action...blah, blah, blah. Well I took it like a sport and got to see alot more of Charleston than I planned. And of course the round that went off reset everything just fine. Gun seems ok now, but of course will need to inspect things in detail. Sometimes your the windshield, sometimes your the bug!!

STOP LAUGHING!!!!

[Jon Merricks]

Paul, That sucks. Hate it happened to ya.

[Vince Pinto]

Paul,

Sorry to hear of your bad experience. I hope this advice won't upset you, but next time you might want to consider Rule 10.3.2.4 which seems to apply in your case.

[PaulW]

Thanks Vince, I appreciate it. And did try to use that rule to my advantage to no avail. Match Gunsmith found nothing wrong. And I give lots of credit to John Hurst who tried his best to get me back in.

I mis-quoted the rule I mentioned above, it should have been 10.3.2.1

[shred]

I did that once years ago.. what is it about hammer follow that makes us want to thumb-cock the hammer and try it again??? In my case, the sear also didn't catch and my thumb got a good beating from the slide to boot.

[Skywalker]

Sorry for that Paul.

Given your description, I would argue some dirt from previous bullets just sneaked into the Sear/Hammer zone, thus preventing the full engagement (I witnessed it happening twice in the past while training with teammates who had a very light trigger setup).

I would too suggest invoking rule 10.3.2.4 as Vince said, perhaps supporting it with: (if) the RO could clearly see you didn't have finger on trigger, this was sort of a "temporary gun malfunction"; I mean, If you didn't mess with trigger, and the cocked hammer didn't engage the sear, IMO this is a case of gun that became unserviceable/unsafe, and this would eventually lead to preventing you from finishing the stage (as it would have happened for, say, a squib load), not to disqualification from the whole match.

But, as I said before, you should have found a very comprehensive RO, that should have been watching each step of your clearing procedure, and should have clearly seen the empty trigger guard the whole time.

[Flexmoney]

10.3.2.4 starts out saying "...actual breakage of a part...".

I like the arguement that the finger wasn't on the trigger...

But, does dirt count as an actual breakage of a part?

I saw something similar at a local match recently. On unload and show clear, the shooter had what appeared to be a discharge/detonation... as near as I could tell, the ejector hit the primer of the round the shooter was attempting to clear. (finger off the trigger, gun pointed safely down rang...and at targets)

What should be the call in that case?

[Skywalker]

Easy one, Flex,

10.3.2.5 "In the event of a discharge following the Range Officer’s declaration “Gun Clear”, the Range Officer shall require the competitor to “Unload and Show Clear” and ensure that the firearm is safe. No further action is required. In the event that the discharge was in an unsafe direction or as defined in 10.3.1 above, the regulations for that section shall apply."

However, I understand that 10.3.2.4 applies only to actual breakage, and maybe it does not apply to dirt.

But dirt was a guess of mine; what about the fact that the hammer (temporarily) could not engage the sear? Doesn't it render the gun unserviceable/unsafe?

[PaulW]

Thanks guys, I appreciate all your comments. I must say the the R/O and the R/M were trying their best to get me back in. The R/O explained to the R/M the whole situation in great detail. My finger was out of the trigger guard, gun was pointing in safe direction, round hit the berm. So I did appreciate their efforts, I just did something dumb. And I did it because at that moment I did not know what else to do. I could have stopped and not fired anymore, sure I would have zero'd the stage, but could have shot the others.

[Wildman]

Flexmoney, I'm going to have a different take on the use of 10.3.2.5, both IPSC and USPSA. Both only apply after the after the “Hammer Down “ command. Neither applies during the unloading routine. In the US, if your gun discharges or detonates after the “hammer down” command, you are free for the rest of the day. Similarly, if your gun discharges while unloading, (US 10.3.2.1), you will also have some additional time to help set steel and paste targets.

[Flexmoney]

Paul,

So even though your finger wasn't on the trigger, your gun was able to fire? Would you basically say that the hammer was following? The hammer wouldn't engaged at full-cock, nor at the half-cock safety notch?

If that still got you the DQ, then 10.3.2.4 puts the responsibility on the shooter to prove, without a doubt, that the gun actually had a broken part?

I guess the key words in 10.2.2.4 (in this case) are "When it can be established... ...actual breakage of a part..."?

------------------

Skywalker,

On the other example I asked about...I don't see where 10.3.2.5 would apply? The discharge was during "unloading", not after the RO called clear (US rules differ on that rule anyway...but that is a different discussion.)

On unload and show clear, the shooter had what appeared to be a discharge/detonation... as near as I could tell, the ejector hit the primer of the round the shooter was attempting to clear. (finger off the trigger, gun pointed safely down range...and at targets)

[2alpha]

>The R/O explained to the R/M the whole situation in great detail. My >finger was out of the trigger guard, gun was pointing in safe direction, >round hit the berm.

Common sense would tell you to go get the gun fixed and come back and finish the match. Where's the unsafe gunhandling? If everyone agrees that the gun fired without a finger on the trigger the gun had to be broke. No different than if you had a double or tripple during the course of fire.

I remember an Area match where a GM top shooter was DQ'd after picking a gun off the table and it discharged. He claimed the gun went off before he touched it and was reinstated.

I want a safe place to shoot as much as anyone but I just wish we could use some common sense

[lynn jones]

10.3.2.4 starts out saying "...actual breakage of a part...".

I like the arguement that the finger wasn't on the trigger...

But, does dirt count as an actual breakage of a part?

I saw something similar at a local match recently.  On unload and show clear, the shooter had what appeared to be a discharge/detonation... as near as I could tell, the ejector hit the primer of the round the shooter was attempting to clear.  (finger off the trigger, gun pointed safely down rang...and at targets)

What should be the call in that case?

flex and wildman,

US 10.3.2 Unsafe Gun Handling • A discharge is defined as a bullet that

has passed through the barrel of a competitor’s firearm. A detonation

is defined as a round that goes off while in the chamber,

but the bullet does not pass through the barrel.

if the bullet is not in the chamber or go through the barrel is it still a dq under wildman's reasoning? what's a detonation outside the chamber?

lynn jones

[Wildman]

Lynn, let me start by saying neither I nor most I know want to DQ a shooter. But neither do we want to see anyone hurt.

My take, for a discharge/detonation per US 10.3.2 to take place, the cartridge must be in the chamber. An ejector detonation is not normally thought of as taking place in the chamber, but in the ejection port. It would be hard to have an ejector detonation pass through the barrel, although it may be possible. US 10.3.1 would not apply to a ED, as I understand it. If the cartridge hits the ground, and goes off, US 10.3.1 does not apply. But if the gun goes “BOOM”, someone better be able to show me evidence of an ejector ignition, to stop enforcement of US 10.3.2.1 during unloading or remedial action.

[Vince Pinto]

Guys,

The application of Rule 10.3.2.4 is conditional on there being an actual (and verifiable) broken part, because a broken part is considered beyond the competitor's control. On the other hand, gun malfunctions caused by dirt are preventable if the competitor conducts regular cleaning and maintenance of his gun.

Vive la difference!

And the fact that your finger was clearly outside of the trigger guard is irrelevant to this particular rule, which deals with gun malfunctions, not competitor action.

[PaulW]

Interesting points....I believe the ruling was correct, but would have loved to have had you guys around when this happened.

Vince, the funny thing is I did clean the gun before I left Orlando for the match, and the reason I was insistant on shooting the plate rack before the match. That will teach me to clean a gun (haha). I usually just wip'em down and run the snot out of them. More oil, more bullets, a little rag to clean every once in awhile.

[SmittyFL]

RE: 2alpha's comment

A guy I shoot with was DQ'd from the FL state match because his hammer followed during remedial action for a malfunction. His finger was not on the trigger and the rounds impacted the berm safely. After dissassembling and looking around it turned out to be a hack trigger job. (the gun was recently purchased used)

He tried to get back in under the broken gun rule, and was denied. So basically there was no broken part, and a hack trigger job doesn't equal a broken gun. And I guess I agree with the ruling. It's a tough call but if something isn't actually broke, who can say for sure what is wrong. I would hate to be the person that let an unsafe gun back on the range and chance someone getting hurt.

[Nolan]

Paul,

Were you using new brass for the match? I get a lot of little brass fragments all over the inside of my gun when I use brand new unfired brass. I wonder if you could have gotten some brass fragments in the sear/disconnector area that caused the problem.

[Skywalker]

Flex,

I didn't catch the whole situation in your example: I thought (wrongly) you were referring to the "Hammer Down" part of the range commands, not the "Unload" one.

I suppose (as Paul experienced) I wouldn't be too happy to be DQed for a (maybe temporary - Nolan suggestion could be also the right one) defect in my handgun, that allowed it to discharge while I was actually complying with all safety rules (finger outside trigger guard, gun in safe direction, shot in the berm etc.), but if these are the rules...

Not to mention that the whole thing is going to be labelled as "Unsafe gun handling"...

[lynn jones]

wildman,

we had a ejector detonation at our match this past sunday. i was throwing that comment in the mix because that's the excuse the party in question used.

lynn jones

[L9X25]

While we are think on this topic, I have a situation which occurred a while back and I would like your opinions.

I was shooting a stage and was reloading the gun. I pulled the new mag from the pouch and when the mag was heading toward the gun I saw something fly out of the mag. Before I could even think I was already pushing the new mag into the gun and it fired. I did not have my finger in the guard and the RO verified that. What had happened was that the top bullet, in the magazine, was knocked loose on the way out of the pouch and flew into my grip while the mag was on the way in. The bullet then stuck into the sear/trigger bow area through the hole in the STI/SV modular grip and the incoming mag caused the gun to fire. The RO was aware of what happened and the fact that the gun had “malfunctioned” but there we no broken parts. The RO called over the Club President/MD and there was a short conference where it was decided that an AD occurred in the act of reloading and I was DQed. I did not argue as it was just a monthly match and the message it could send to newer shooters that oldtime shooters don’t get DQed when they have ADs might not promote safety in the club. Was this the correct call?

Leo

[Flexmoney]

L9X25,

From what has beensaid here, it sounds like the right call.

More importantly...you (as an experienced shooter) set a great example to the rest of the membership by your actions.

Two thumbs up!

[PaulW]

Double two thumbs up Leo. When I got my DQ of course I was hot. And anyone who knows me knows how competitive I am. I really wanted to vent my frustrations out on anyone or anything I could. But I remember an incident at the last Area 6 match in jacksonville. I was having mags jump out of the gun syndrome and on our next to last stage it happened again. After finishing the stage I took and threw the mag up into the grass on the berm. Then look like a complete fool when I was running around trying to find the missing mag out of my bag. I was such an @ss, and really did not want to show that side again. Some times you just have to take your medicine.

[Vince Pinto]

Leo,

Doo-doo happens and you accepted the DQ (the correct call) like a man. Ya done good.

[L9X25]

Thanks guys but it was no big deal ... last time I checked there was no "Cadillac" on the prize table anyway.

The scary part about all of this (from a Newby's perspective) is what happens afterward ... I grabbed the timer away from the RO and said "Now that I don't have anything better to do ... I guess I'll RO for the rest of the day!"

Leo