Allowing 22s in USPSA

[murkish]

Understanding the history of this sport and having been around it for 15 years.....I cannot state my opinion more eloquently than EricW, and wholeheartely agree with his sentiment. We buy the kids .22s until they can handle 9x19s when they get older....then they shoot our guns in "this" sport.

I am definitely not for futher dilution of the pool as it were.........

DougC

<imagining what Col. Cooper is thinking watching this from his lofty perch.......>

+1

Here's a little excerpt from what the Honorary Life Chairman of IPSC thought and committed to paper in 1993: Practical shooting was originally conceived to be exactly that - practical - but ten years of increasingly unreasonable course design and continued disregard of the power factor in competition equipment has given the field to... guns, which are expensive, unwieldy, and essentially unsuitable for any defensive purpose. Worth reading in full about World Shoot X: Jeff Cooper's Commentaries

From the above referenced article:

"One thing I discovered to my considerable amusement was the fact that with the heavy, compensated, reduced power, optically sighted instruments in common use, the spray-and-pray technique employed on double stop-plates quite frequently results in stopping the wrong plate. Personally, I feel that the Confederation might well consider going to the 22 rimfire cartridge since there is no attempt at this time to relate the activity to defensive combat. The 22 would be vastly cheaper and even easier to machine-gun." Col. Jeff Cooper

[vluc]

I did not get the sense that the other thread was talking about juniors or tiny tots. I saw it as referencing using .22 to shoot, period.

The matter of a new, very young shooter is one issue. Using it for any of us posting here is another matter entirely (imo).

Nothing currently precludes any MD from letting someone run with a .22, but the notion of scoring them as minor (just to see how they would do) would be like me shooting production and scoring it major to see how I would do in limited 10. Not the same. I'm not shooting .40, I'm not approaching it with the same mindset I would if I were actually shooting it.

Maybe one of the proponents will shoot a few matches with a .22 and give us their opinion and feedback as to how it is the same and how it differs from running their usual gun.

[Jim Norman]

Vluc,

An excellent idea.

I have a Beretta T87 that loads just like a 1911, right down to where the mag release is located. even has an external hammer. Next time we have a 'light match turnout' or maybe at one of our indoor practice sessions, I will bring it out and shoot it back to back against my Para or SS Caspian. Could be interesting.

Jim

[Chris iliff]

I like the idea of a level 1 rimfire L-10 division. L-10 rules apply with two deviations:

1. Steel need not fall to count for score.

2. Low ready in lieu of holster draw permitted.

Edited to change from PD to L-10. I'd like to keep the mag limit to 10 and iron sights to keep it as level a playing field as possible for those new to the game.

+1, maybe a #3. 14 years old or less?

[Charles Bond]

I can not see myself supporting any 22 division being added to USPSA. I really do not see the need and I believe that we have enough on our plate getting SC up and running smoothly. Once we have a SC match within driving distance of most of our membership, there will be a 22 match to attend.

Once SC is running smoothly, I believe USPSA should "explore" development of a Chevy Team Challenge type of shooting that would use 22 rimfire only. This would not be a division but rather a disicipline seperate and apart as is SC. That is only my idea but I believe adding a true team aspect to our family of shooting sports would be a wise step.

In the meantime, if you have a kid that wants to run a stage with a 22 at a local match, be generous and tell the MD to let him or her do it since that child may be a future star of the sport. And if you run into a 9 year old girl who places at your 22 bowling pin match, give her a $5 bill for more ammo. Random acts of kindness by individual shooters do more to insure the future of USPSA than any acts by the BOD.

[Jim Norman]

I can not see myself supporting any 22 division being added to USPSA. I really do not see the need and I believe that we have enough on our plate getting SC up and running smoothly. Once we have a SC match within driving distance of most of our membership, there will be a 22 match to attend.

Once SC is running smoothly, I believe USPSA should "explore" development of a Chevy Team Challenge type of shooting that would use 22 rimfire only. This would not be a division but rather a disicipline seperate and apart as is SC. That is only my idea but I believe adding a true team aspect to our family of shooting sports would be a wise step.

In the meantime, if you have a kid that wants to run a stage with a 22 at a local match, be generous and tell the MD to let him or her do it since that child may be a future star of the sport. And if you run into a 9 year old girl who places at your 22 bowling pin match, give her a $5 bill for more ammo. Random acts of kindness by individual shooters do more to insure the future of USPSA than any acts by the BOD.

Charles,

The last paragraph of your reply says what all but a few of us have been saying. No one wants an official .22 division or category within other divisions. What we all want is the ability to allow a young shooter to walk through a match shooting a .22 to get their feet wet. Dad or Mom may already be a shooter with us and want their little Johnny or Janie to play along. A 9mm MAY be a bit much to handle, but a .22 may just get them hooked. Yes there are other places they can play, but those places, even affiliated ones like SC are not "Our Game". We want to turn these people ON, not OFF.

If your club or any club decides they don't want to or due to time constraints, can't, then fine, but all most of us are asking is that we not be barred from allowing this at our club match level.

No one to my knowledge is asking for USPSA to sanction this. The other end of life from the youth market is the guy that while still able to successfully and safely negotiate a USPSA COF, albeit maybe slowly, can no longer stand the recoil of even a lightly loaded 9mm. Wrists do fail, arthritis is a robber of vitality. Would I let a person so afflicted that was always an active member shoot for the fun of it?Darned right. I know how much pain bad wrists and elbows can cause, even when you know it is temporary.

.22's for everyone all the time? NO, but for certain specail cases, why not, it may be your grandkid or your own self with bad wrists that gets to shoot.

Jim

[conrad]

I like the idea of 22's. So how about steel is scored as a hit or no hit. If the stage score is 160 and it has 1 disappering target then the stage score would be worth150 points?

[Nik Habicht]

No one to my knowledge is asking for USPSA to sanction this. The other end of life from the youth market is the guy that while still able to successfully and safely negotiate a USPSA COF, albeit maybe slowly, can no longer stand the recoil of even a lightly loaded 9mm. Wrists do fail, arthritis is a robber of vitality. Would I let a person so afflicted that was always an active member shoot for the fun of it?Darned right. I know how much pain bad wrists and elbows can cause, even when you know it is temporary.

.22's for everyone all the time? NO, but for certain specail cases, why not, it may be your grandkid or your own self with bad wrists that gets to shoot.

Jim

If you're not looking for some sort of approval ---- then why is this even being discussed? Most of the people on this thread have already figured out some sort of compromise that works for them or their matches.......

[gino_aki]

No one to my knowledge is asking for USPSA to sanction this. The other end of life from the youth market is the guy that while still able to successfully and safely negotiate a USPSA COF, albeit maybe slowly, can no longer stand the recoil of even a lightly loaded 9mm. Wrists do fail, arthritis is a robber of vitality. Would I let a person so afflicted that was always an active member shoot for the fun of it?Darned right. I know how much pain bad wrists and elbows can cause, even when you know it is temporary.

.22's for everyone all the time? NO, but for certain specail cases, why not, it may be your grandkid or your own self with bad wrists that gets to shoot.

Jim

If you're not looking for some sort of approval ---- then why is this even being discussed? Most of the people on this thread have already figured out some sort of compromise that works for them or their matches.......

I suppose it would be for those who travel to matches at other clubs, so there would be a consistency in rules governing scoring and placement. I would say it's obvious that shooting for score against the full power guns would skew the results too much...which is why I proposed scoring it as a separate match like rifle and shotgun used to be. Steel hit counts regardless of fall, movers either changed to static or removed from COF. Squad the .22 shooters together and have the adults coach the juniors and newbies. If your club votes not to include .22 Division that would be fine. But for those who do want to include it there would be a set of rules to govern how it's run. If you don't want it diluting the main pistol match, put it on the guys who want to shoot .22 Division to set up their match and run it, either as a side match, an after match or on a different day. I'd shoot .22 Division just to see the changes we could effect to .22 pistol design the same as we've affected centerfire pistol design.

[chemepharmd]

I'd shoot .22 Division just to see the changes we could effect to .22 pistol design the same as we've affected centerfire pistol design.

Wouldn't it be nice to shoot a quality .22 pistol that took 30-round mags? Not sure about anyone else, but that would put a big grin on my face .

[Boris Zaretsky]

Here is my 0.02 opinion.

.22 division - no. This is against principles of DVC on which entire sport is based.

Want to shoot .22 competitively within IPSC? Go to steel challenge match and follow he rules there.

Shooting .22 at Level I match should be up to the club member’s decision. I would strongly oppose it in my club. Bring me the kid that can safely handle 9mm and I will help him out through the next step. Otherwise it should be responsibility of a parent, not the club, to teach a kid to shoot. Safety of other club members comes here to mind too. Our club allows bringing 9 years old to shoot. But I am yet to see one do.

Why is it a problem for some people to wait for a child to grow until he/she can handle an IPSC-legal gun? Why should a club take over responsibility of a parent to teach child to shoot? Is it because one wants to show the world how proud he is about his daughter or son shooting real gun? That is wonderful! But I would be ashamed to bring to the club such unprepared junior. Why should a paying-member of the match wait for 2 minutes the youngster takes to shoot 10 sec stage? Why should I show to others how poorly I prepared my kid to shoot at the IPSC match?

I have a three-years-old grandson. In a few years I will introduce him to .22. Then to 9mm and then, only then, I will bring him to the club. He will be safe and proficient enough to compete with others on the same level, not with a first-time-gun-in-a-hand junior discount. He will not wine about difficulties of the stage or blame someone else for his own failures. He will follow USPSA rules and, if he is DQ’ed, he will take it like a man. And then I will be proud of him.