Hit factor discussion

[shooterbenedetto]

OVERALL here is my score:

219 alphas

5 bravo

48 charlies

9 delta 2 mike ( one on each stage)

overall standing 39th Master open.

LESSON LEARNED:

-lots of extra shots on swingers that cost me a lot of time.

- I moved dead time an didnt have transition on movements

-I should have pushed a little harder and traded C scores for alpha for the

long courses.

What I dont get is that, other master class shooters had 4 mikes on 4 stages and still beat me???

Am i on the right track? I thought TIME was never traded for ACCURACY??

compared to 1st Master class open:

206 alpha

6 bravo

64 charlie

8 delta

1 ns

compared to 2nd Master class open:

211 alpha

4 bravo

56 charlies

12 deltas

1 Mike

1 ns

[pjb45]

Each stage has to be evaluated not just the summary scores. Doing averages and summaries distort the true picture.

Losing total points on a small stage is not as important as losing points on a big stage. So you choke a small 8 round stage and you only get 10 points -- not as important as losing 30 points off the top of a big stage worth 150 points and then because you shot it slow you lose more points.

Go look at the GM Limited Scores. See how many were willing to lose points to make up time on the big stages. A lot of Alpha Charlies were shot. (Taran does not count! Shooting minor he focused on his accuracy but still moved very fast.)

[AlamoShooter]

I thought you could not trade points on a short stage = If it is only a 60 point stage and you give up 6 C's that is 10% of the points

If you do that on a 160 point stage 6 C's is only 4%

I shot too many A's too slow = total match I was happy with my 2 Mickes cuzzz I missed them agressiv on the swingers

1B ...37 Cs 6 Ds and two mikes I gotta learn how the game is played and stop adjusting my sights inside the A zone

[BSeevers]

.

LESSON LEARNED:

-lots of extra shots on swingers that cost me a lot of time.

What I dont get is that, other master class shooters had 4 mikes on 4 stages and still beat me???

Am i on the right track? I thought TIME was never traded for ACCURACY??

Can I say, Welcome to Master Open?

Everybody is fast and accurate in master class and you can't afford very many "hesitations" much less the extra 2-4 seconds waiting on a mover. The phrase 2 seconds is a lifetime comes to my mind a lot. If you are more than that much behind the pace you are probably not in the running, at all.

Usually 4 mikes doesnt win M at any major but every match is different. I see lower than 10 hit factors in Open at A2 so that usually points toward accuracy type stages but in Open M there are always at least 7-10 guys waiting(no not waiting Shooting real fast and accurate) to beat you. Its fun to shoot Open cause I think its one of the most competitive classes/divisions but it can really make you think about the phrase mako muzu.

[Chris Keen]

The phrase 2 seconds is a lifetime

..... translates into sometimes YOU CAN miss fast enough to win.

[eerw]

The phrase 2 seconds is a lifetime

..... translates into sometimes YOU CAN miss fast enough to win.

only if you can miss faster than the other guy/gal can.

[Chris Keen]

This only works on HHF stages, and of course is not my standard plan but it can work out for the speed demons amongst us.

Only 1 miss is acceptable (with some exceptions) and you must shoot the stage at least 2 ... more like 3 seconds faster than your competition and you should come out a little ahead.

Heck, I've even seen it done on some low HF stages.

[shooterbenedetto]

I have posted Gm times before but hesitated and pulled back for accuracy. Had I known this was a speed match i should have done so as long as there was no mikes and shot it clean. BUT, I will still go for ACCURACY and I know every year i should get faster maintaning my good points. I STILL BELIEVE MATCH POINTS IS WHAT WINS BIG MATCH.

[AlamoShooter]

The shooter that wins with some Mikes all-so has lots of A's and C's to trade the points off with. You cant shoot D's and mikes and win at anything. The math just not support it, I was not unhappy with the Mikes I got cuzz that meant I was finally pushing for some speed.

[Chris Keen]

... had I known this was a speed match ...

Knowing is the hardest part. If you tell me to shoot fast, I'll burn it down. And if you tell me to shoot accurately, I'll shoot a bunch of A's.

But what if no one was there to tell you ?

This is what I am trying to master right now.

[shooterbenedetto]

Thanks Chris, amen to that...just have to go to my shooting dairy and work harder this year. Time to go training for FLORIDA OPEN!!

[BSeevers]

It wasn't a speed match. Most winning HF's in Master Open were 5-8. These are usually "push" stages that require a blend of speed and accuracy and the most challenging to shoot in general.

[Micah]

I STILL BELIEVE MATCH POINTS IS WHAT WINS BIG MATCH.

That's the pitfall that I am crawling out of as I type this. Hit factors are what wins any match.

[Zerwas]

I have posted Gm times before but hesitated and pulled back for accuracy. Had I known this was a speed match i should have done so as long as there was no mikes and shot it clean. BUT, I will still go for ACCURACY and I know every year i should get faster maintaning my good points. I STILL BELIEVE MATCH POINTS IS WHAT WINS BIG MATCH.

So does TGO. He makes reference to this during the 2005 limited natinals video by Saul. That runs thru my head at each stage of a match (once I settle down)..

[SA Friday]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't match points for a shooter determined by their HF compared to the 100% for the stage in their division? So, total amounts of A's, B's, C's etc for a match are not the best reflection of overall performance, but only accuracy.

A miss and a D on a 32 round stage will affect the HF less than the same miss and D on a 12 round stage typically. So, when and where the misses and no-shoots occur do play into the equasion. Also, a miss doesn't affect anything as long as you win the stage.

[Zerwas]

In a major match, rarely if ever will you see someone win a stage with a number under the M column.

You need points as efficiently as you can to obtain high hit factors. Hi hit factors will win you a match...that is the balance that must be maintained.

[SA Friday]

In a major match, rarely if ever will you see someone win a stage with a number under the M column.

You need points as efficiently as you can to obtain high hit factors. Hi hit factors will win you a match...that is the balance that must be maintained.

My previous post agrees with this. I was pointing out how the math works to previous posters and the faulty impression it might have been giving.

Yes, it's very rare to see a Miss the column of a stages winner, but it happens, and when it does the miss doesn't mean anything. I was stating this to make a point. Only the shot HF's really matter when comparing one shooter to another for a specific stage. Comparing match results really is about comparing the stages and seeing where you lost or gained match points (which is determined by HF) on another shooter.

[AZ38super]

All this talk of points versus hits and such made me take a look, here is what I found in Open class at least.

The highest placement ona stage with a Mike was 3rd on only two stages.

Image of hits, points, percentage and place for Open class winners.

Edit to add times.

GM 174.7

M 184.21

A 215.65

B 221.6

C 248.6

D 363.46

Edited November 13, 2007 by AZ38super

[AlamoShooter]

An Interesting -stat- number is the total time for the match. I end up looking at that this past few matches to learn from.

Its easy to see the % of points ganed or lost and the % on the stage. But looking at the % of "time" lost /or slower.

I can see that by giving up 10% on score points and going X?% faster weather or not that would improve my placment compared to the good shooters.

I looked at 10th place /3rd Master = Eddie G. =212 As --6 Bs -- 55 Cs -- 9 Ds --1 M And ( 197.58 ) seconds for all 11 Stages

My score was 240 As -- 1 B --36 Cs --5 Ds 2 Miss And ( 215.65 ) total time for all 11

So if I could give up 10% on the As in to Cs and go 10% faster = That would give me 216 As and a time of ( 193.5 ) seconds I would have a gain of 9th to 8 th place.

Now I know how to direct my training and the week part of my shooting. Math wins out it never lies.

Break out that time for 10% faster over all 11 stages a total moves of { 50 } movment to diferent shooitng positions

most stages had 5 dif positions to shoot from

Edited November 13, 2007 by AlamoShooter

[SA Friday]

Maybe..... It really depends on where you are giving up the points for the time and vise versa. If you take this approach on a 12 round stage, you are going to get shwacked (technical term). But if you take this approach on a 32 round stage, you might very well improve your HF. What really matters is the estimated HHF for the stage. The higher the HF, the more you will gain through going faster. But, the lower the HF, the more you will gain through better hits. Sometimes its better to burn the extra second for better hits. It's the tweener stages (another technical term) that fry your mellon.

EZ Bagger...... Paging EZ Bagger..........

EZ is the best I know at this. He does this stuff in his head while doing his walk-throughs. It's like Savant math. He explains it better than I do too. I guess it helps that he's an accountant, but what do I know.....

I still haven't figured out standards, even after multiple explanations.

[SA Friday]

Break out that time for 10% faster over all 11 stages a total moves of { 50 } movment to diferent shooitng positions

most stages had 5 dif positions to shoot from

100% agree with this. It's not really how fast you shoot the targets after about B class. It's all about learning how to move efficiently and shave every little bit of time from everything else BUT the shooting.

[EZ Bagger]

Looks to me like you shot about 94% of the available points. So keep that in mind when deciding whether you're shooting enough A's or not....

Three things to keep in mind:

1. The number 3 guy in your division/class has no/zero/nada affect on your score. The only person to compare yourself to is the guy who won. His (or hers) is the only hit factor that matters more than yours. Any calculation using a different person's hit factors will leave you further and further behind.

2. Trading an A for a C is trading 100% of the available points for 80% of the available points, so any decrease in time would have to be greater than just the 10% change in the number of A's vs. C's.

3. You're also assuming that the only points/shots that will be affected are the A's, but you're taking the 10% reduction in stage times for all shots fired.

Now go shoot faster!!! Just don't give up on those A's.

[AlamoShooter]

Very interesting A - to -C is 20% trade in points. Thats a much better way to calculate points traded for time.

An accountant Thanks Mr EZ

What - One friend told me when I said that I shoot too many A's he said " Well thin aim at the C " I thought it was funny

But If I could make a mental switch to see the target as an entire C zone at 12" wide that would help me start shooting faster.

When I can do a rewind on my mental video = sometimes I can remember adjusting the dot inside the A zone to center the hit. that just eats up time / no mater how little it may be, = its time lost.

[ong45]

Edwin

Trying to classify stages according to how many points you can trade for time i think is counter productive. As a lot of people have pointed out you should treat every target as 2 alphas to be gotten. It's hard enough just trying to shoot A's without consciously TRYING to shoot C's.

Work on your stage management, little mental lapses and make up shots pile up time in a hurry. You have the skills to finish higher than the A2 results indicate.

In the quest to get better it's easy to forget the little things , the guy who won master ( and incidentally finished 2nd oal) just did everything a bit better than everyone else. There is no magic , just grind it out.

Edited November 13, 2007 by ong45

[rvb]

But If I could make a mental switch to see the target as an entire C zone at 12" wide that would help me start shooting faster.

When I can do a rewind on my mental video = sometimes I can remember adjusting the dot inside the A zone to center the hit.

I started in idpa ("C" hits can KILL your score), went to production ("A"s are oh so important) and then went to open (major scoring? huh? what?). Getting myself to hurry up and not shoot all As has been a focus of mine this season. However, the A zone is STILL my target. I still think of a C or D as a "miss" (it's not where I was aiming), but a C is now an "acceptable miss." I no longer worry if I'm on the edge of the target [aka A-zone]... I go for it! My times are so much faster (if you're willing to "miss" then your time spent entering/exiting positions is faster, shooting on the move is faster, etc) and heck I still shot 94.x% of the available points this past weekend.

My point is this... if you view the C zone as your acceptable target, how many more Ds/Ms will you throw out there. The goal is to "accept" more C's, not to also accept more Ds/Ms. Be careful of making the C-zone your target! Still consider the A-zone to be your goal, but understand if you shoot fast enough to "miss" it will be caught by the C.

Just my thoughts on the matter and the "ideas" that helped me begin to get past the same hurdle you're encountering.

-rvb

ps. I still haven't cleared the hurdle myself... but I don't crash into each hurdle as I run like I used to! haha....

Edited November 13, 2007 by rvb