Dryfire / Draw question

[boz1911]

Been dryfiring for about 4-5 months now and my draw has gotten consistently better. Actual 5yd draws during practice have dropped from 1.1-1.2 to .8-.9, so I know my draw has gotten better. In the last week or two my dryfire draws have gotten shakey, where I sometimes get a very poor grip. I should also say that I have been exercisng my left hand grip daily.

Last night during our weekly match I drew the gun and had such a sh%tty grip when I fired the first round the gun actually recoiled to about 75 degrees, hell I thought I had AD'd for a second. Any way the rest of that stage went like donkey dung.

Question is, any reason for such a deterioration of grip during the draw? Thought I could just work through this but something's happening that I am unaware of. Too much practice? Need a break?refocus on basics?Just getting old?Lead poisoning?..........Just need some thoughts, thanks

Other question relating to last night, when you big guns make a mistake like that, how do you go about salvaging the stage? I tend to push harder and that doesn't seem to work. Would it be better to slow down and get things under control then push or maintain?

[mjbine]

I believe that you are trying to go too fast. Concentrate on the grip. Another question is are you scooping the gun or coming down then up? Scooping is a bit faster but your grip is more inconsistant. Scooping needs lots and lots of practice.

[boz1911]

Yes , I have been scooping the gun, but have had no issues until recently. I will say I have been focusing on the weak hand grip to help accuracy.

[XRe]

Stop scooping and learn how to draw the gun for real

[boz1911]

Stop scooping and learn how to draw the gun for real

To be honest, I didn't know scooping was a bad thing, but I am always willing to change to improve. Thanks

[Sean Gaines]

Stop scooping and learn how to draw the gun for real

To be honest, I didn't know scooping was a bad thing, but I am always willing to change to improve. Thanks

I am not one to comment about dryfire, because I never do it. But when I did do it, I thought I had a scoop type draw, but after watching video of myself over and over. I found that I didn't have a scoop draw at all. So you may try videoing yourself and see if thats the case.

Also trying to go to fast will lead to missing the grip. Getting a good solid grip on the gun with a modest time is more important than a fast draw and a lowsy grip, that will set the tone for the rest of the stage.

[Catfish]

Stop scooping and learn how to draw the gun for real

+1

As far as not letting something like that keep you from tanking a stage, take a breath and move on. You're probably not going to win the stage, but if you just relax and shoot the rest of the stage you won't lose it either. Remember on a long field course there is plenty of time and points to be had. On a short course, you're pretty much hosed.

But still, the best thing to do is take a breath, remember you're in a time warp so everything seems to be going really really slooooooooooow when in fact you're probably chugging along pretty good.

[JThompson]

Stop scooping and learn how to draw the gun for real

I'm with Dave... I used the scoop when I started out. I got fast quick, but the first time I just about tossed my gun down range I decided that wasn't the way to go. I'm not saying it can't be done, but I think the safety margin is to thin. A wise man once said, "See what you need to see." I would add to that by saying, feel what you need to feel. If it don't feel right then take the time to make it right.

Edited November 7, 2007 by JThompson

[Jman]

I believe that you are trying to go too fast.

+1. Slow it way down and you'll be safer now and faster soon enough. Remember, It's how quickly we grip then draw.

Jim M

[boz1911]

Thanks for the posts guys, gotta love this forum. Sounds like it's time to rethink my draw and improve it without the scoop. Makes me wonder, since it seems to have deteriorated in the few weeks, has my draw evolved into more to scooping type of draw for sheer speed than a conventional grip-draw? Video sounds like a plan. Again guys thanks for your responses

[XRe]

To be honest, I didn't know scooping was a bad thing, but I am always willing to change to improve. Thanks

Well, you're discovering why its ultimately not the way to go - you have no control over the gun as its coming out of the holster. If you're off by just a bit, catastrophic things can happen, especially under the effects of match nerves. More than a few people have tossed their blaster downrange doing the scoop... There have been a couple of very successful shooters that have used the technique - but they practiced the living snot out of it. Barnhart used to scoop, but would tell his students not to, for that very reason.

On 5 yard targets, I've hit sub-.7 draws, with a solid grip on the gun before it moves out of the holster. That's not ridiculously fast, I know, but the point is that you can attain the fastest draws you'll ever need, and have complete control of the gun the moment your hand is on it. Several different ways to do it, but I'd highly suggest learning one and building that up instead of continuing what you're doing.

[Steve Anderson]

A shooting question on Enos?

Yeah!!!!

Alright, a couple things.

1. When dry firing draws, I recommend NOT pulling the trigger. You want a faster acceptable sight picture, not a faster loud noise. (which may be what you're training) Just draw to an ASP and strive to beat the par time. I have gotten into .5s easily...

2. If you have a near AD on a stage, ignore it. If you have properly programmed the stage and your mental center, It will likely never happen again. Unless the ro stops you, it's no big deal. (NOT from a safety perspective, but rather from a stage execution perspective.)

Hope this helps, if not...ask another shooting question.

SA

[Skywalker]

On the draw that deteriorated in the last few weeks: it sounds (albeit just guessing here) like you've become a bit sloppy in performing the draw. I mean, you just reached a new plateau, maybe you have started to lull yourself in pleasant thoughts like "hey, I'm getting real good at this" and started to pay less and less attention to what you do in that case.

Think of it like being on the range since a few hours and a few hundreds of rounds: if you're not really attentive, you might just start shooting by habit and not watching your sights or calling your shots, and this shows up on the targets with lousy hits or even mikes.

Can't comment on the scoop: I have done it for some time, but it didn't work for me as I was not able to grip the gun correctly, thus after a few months of practicing it, I switched back to the normal up-down-up draw. Definitely more consistent for me.

On what to do when something like what happend to you at the match comes in: I'm by no means a top or even good shot, so please take my words with a grain of salt.

I slow down, I totally forget about speed, splits and rushing, I settle down on pure accuracy (OK, well, in relative terms, you can still time me with a timer and not with an hourglass...) and stick with it for the rest of the stage.

My reasoning is: I screwed it up badly in the beginning, and I might already be 10/15% behind what I could be. If I start forcing and rushing it, I will inevitably add new and maybe bigger screw-ups to the already tanked stage, and I can't afford this.

By no means I'm able to consciously think "I'm going 110% to make up the initial mistake" and have this happen. I'll pretty much crash and burn if I ever try to do it, and I don't believe in luck enough to expect this to happen to me.

So, in the end, my looser plan is to try and make the most out of a stage that I started with an handicap, and this means not loosing anything else.

[spook]

Stop scooping and learn how to draw the gun for real

To be honest, I didn't know scooping was a bad thing, but I am always willing to change to improve. Thanks

Scooping isn't bad, just make sure your thumb clears the backstrap before the gun clears the holster, so you can actually grip the gun and not lift is out of the holster with just your fingers by the front strap.

A shooting question on Enos?

Yeah!!!!

+1

1. When dry firing draws, I recommend NOT pulling the trigger. You want a faster acceptable sight picture, not a faster loud noise.

And another +1

On the draw that deteriorated in the last few weeks: it sounds (albeit just guessing here) like you've become a bit sloppy in performing the draw.

That was my first thought. Just train for consistency. I never give up consistency for speed (at least that is my goal )

Make sure you get faster while maintaining top-consistency. I have noticed (with myself) that consistency is one of the first things to deteriorate during live fire, compared to dry fire. So I accept nothing but 100% in dry fire.

Edited November 8, 2007 by spook

[Flexmoney]

As long as you are going to to start fresh...let me really break you down.

Come on...it will be fun...just like basic training.

Been dryfiring for about 4-5 months now and my draw has gotten consistently better. Actual 5yd draws during practice have dropped from 1.1-1.2 to .8-.9, so I know my draw has gotten better. In the last week or two my dryfire draws have gotten shakey, where I sometimes get a very poor grip.

If you are missing your grip, then what good is faster? Bad grip = bad draw.

I like how Burkett teaches the grip (on one of the dvd's). Going in reverse... He suggests, as a teaching aid (maybe even as part of LAMR), to get your strong hand grip on the gun while it is in the holster. Then, without moving the hand away from the gun at all, just open the hand/fingers. With the palm is still touching the gun and the fingers unwrapped, now just move the hand out to the side an inch or two. Not up and down, just to the side. From there, move the hand to the start position.

When you go to draw, you just reverse it all. You don't come up or down on the gun. It is more a coming in from the side...kinda like a "leather slap".

I should also say that I have been exercisng my left hand grip daily.

You might just be in a place where you are consciously focusing on one aspect of a task...which tends to let the other aspects fall off to the way side a bit. that is often the way the learning process needs/seems to go. then again, you don't want to lose sight of the main objective.

Question is, any reason for such a deterioration of grip during the draw? Thought I could just work through this but something's happening that I am unaware of. Too much practice? Need a break?refocus on basics?Just getting old?Lead poisoning?..........Just need some thoughts, thanks

It does seems as if you have a focus on speed. For goodness sake, don't try to counter that by "slowing down". Slow..fast...it's still a speed focus. Switch the focus to execution of the fundamentals of the task.

Other question relating to last night, when you big guns make a mistake like that, how do you go about salvaging the stage? I tend to push harder and that doesn't seem to work. Would it be better to slow down and get things under control then push or maintain?

Slow down...push harder...

Again...there is that speed focus. Time gained is done through being efficient...not shooting fast or trying hard. Max is efficient. TJ is efficient.

Let me put this out there. Once you ahve lost time on a stage...for whatever reason...pulling the trigger faster isn't going to make things better. Time lost drags down the hit facotr. As the hit factors get lower, accuracy becomes more and more important. When things go bad...shoot points.

And, back on topic...any stage started with a bad grip is going to cost more time than any fast draw will ever save.

[mjbine]

As long as you are going to to start fresh...let me really break you down.

Come on...it will be fun...just like basic training.

Been dryfiring for about 4-5 months now and my draw has gotten consistently better. Actual 5yd draws during practice have dropped from 1.1-1.2 to .8-.9, so I know my draw has gotten better. In the last week or two my dryfire draws have gotten shakey, where I sometimes get a very poor grip.

If you are missing your grip, then what good is faster? Bad grip = bad draw.

I like how Burkett teaches the grip (on one of the dvd's). Going in reverse... He suggests, as a teaching aid (maybe even as part of LAMR), to get your strong hand grip on the gun while it is in the holster. Then, without moving the hand away from the gun at all, just open the hand/fingers. With the palm is still touching the gun and the fingers unwrapped, now just move the hand out to the side an inch or two. Not up and down, just to the side. From there, move the hand to the start position.

When you go to draw, you just reverse it all. You don't come up or down on the gun. It is more a coming in from the side...kinda like a "leather slap".

I should also say that I have been exercisng my left hand grip daily.

You might just be in a place where you are consciously focusing on one aspect of a task...which tends to let the other aspects fall off to the way side a bit. that is often the way the learning process needs/seems to go. then again, you don't want to lose sight of the main objective.

Question is, any reason for such a deterioration of grip during the draw? Thought I could just work through this but something's happening that I am unaware of. Too much practice? Need a break?refocus on basics?Just getting old?Lead poisoning?..........Just need some thoughts, thanks

It does seems as if you have a focus on speed. For goodness sake, don't try to counter that by "slowing down". Slow..fast...it's still a speed focus. Switch the focus to execution of the fundamentals of the task.

Other question relating to last night, when you big guns make a mistake like that, how do you go about salvaging the stage? I tend to push harder and that doesn't seem to work. Would it be better to slow down and get things under control then push or maintain?

Slow down...push harder...

Again...there is that speed focus. Time gained is done through being efficient...not shooting fast or trying hard. Max is efficient. TJ is efficient.

Let me put this out there. Once you ahve lost time on a stage...for whatever reason...pulling the trigger faster isn't going to make things better. Time lost drags down the hit facotr. As the hit factors get lower, accuracy becomes more and more important. When things go bad...shoot points.

And, back on topic...any stage started with a bad grip is going to cost more time than any fast draw will ever save.

+10000 for Steve and Flex

[CDRODA396]

...any stage started with a bad grip is going to cost more time than any fast draw will ever save.

Now that little nugget is worth every minute spent pouring through pages on here and definately going in my signature line if Flex isnt going to copyright it!

[Miranda]

I can only address one of your questions.

"when you big guns make a mistake like that, how do you go about salvaging the stage?"

I race cars and Karts and this question comes up a lot.

The short answer is you will not make up the lost time. NEVER EVER.

why not? I hear you ask...

well because the fastest you can go is the fastest you can go.

if you can go faster then why, pray tell, were you wasting time going slower?

You literally have your own speed wall.

so when you make a mistake promise yourself to learn how to not make that mistake.

Then do what needs to be done next in your competition.

spell it out time.

To save what you can,

once you know you made a mistake...

Realize you can't recover the loss created by that mistake.

and (yes it is just this simple)

quit adding mistakes to the first one.

...ahem...

Be aware that trying to go faster than you are able IS a mistake....

miranda

[iweiny]

On what to do when something like what happend to you at the match comes in: I'm by no means a top or even good shot, so please take my words with a grain of salt.

I slow down, I totally forget about speed, splits and rushing, I settle down on pure accuracy (OK, well, in relative terms, you can still time me with a timer and not with an hourglass...) and stick with it for the rest of the stage.

+1

When I started an M class shooter once told me, "after something goes wrong -- just get your hits. You can't get back time but you can make more mistakes."

Ira

[boz1911]

Thanks again for the responses guys. Couple of notes, I do not pull the trigger when I dryfire, just look for the acceptable picture. Do have Steve's book.

I don't overdue dryfire, 15-20 minutes 5-6 times a week in the morning when things are quiet. Focus shouldn't be a problem. I have even carried that over to livefire practice where I have cut down on rounds but make them all mean something(per a previous Flex suggestion).

This morning during dryfire I tried getting a better grip and eliminating some of the scoop motion. My par times seemed virtually the same(been using.7). Although I may have lost a few hundreths on the grip part, because of having a better grip, as the gun came up and out, I was able to obtain an A zone sight picture much quicker. I feel this was because of not fighting to obtain good grip while the gun was in motion.

Don't know if that makes sense or whether I described that worth a damn, but bottom line, I had a good grip, acceptable sight picture, reasonable speed, and most of all , I didn't feel the gun was out of control.

Also thanks for the tips on how to salvage a stage after a miscue........now to remember that after the buzzer goes off.

Off the subject, I know I'm old, and started this sport late in life, but I do love it and certainlly enjoy the fantastic people I've met in 2 plus years.

[ima45dv8]

I've lost a lot of matches, but I don't think I ever lost one because I took the time to get a good grip during the draw.

[Steve Anderson]

Your great draw usually fails when you think about it, or at least mine does...

SA

[gunsablazin]

Your great draw usually fails when you think about it, or at least mine does...

SA

Amen to that, when I am focused on the draw my first shot usually is bad. My best draws are the ones I didn't notice at the time. I like to hear the buzzer, see the sights and shoot. I have practiced draws until they are smooth and consistent, I'll wait for the speed to come by itself.

Robin

[boz1911]

Just an update, third day of dryfire with a real(XRE) draw and it feels really good to have a hold on the gun as it moves to the A zone and with acceptable speed I might add.

[PJ BAD]

Don't forget to video yourself. It's one of the most valuable tools available.