Round Dumping and Stage Design

[Greg Bell]

In the 2007 IDPA Nationals Underway thread someone stated that course design can eliminate the round dumping issue. As a relatively new SO I’m curious how one does this with the multitude of starting capacities for the different divisions such as 6, 7 +1, 8 +1, 9 +1, 10 +1. How do you design stages that eliminate the possibility of an advantageous point to dump a round? I don't think you can eliminate it entirely reduce it yea sure, but eliminate?

[Fireant]

Greg,

I agree with you. The only way to eliminate it is to make everything limited vickers Since you can't do that eliminate penalties for thinking that's what was going on.

[racerba]

In the 2007 IDPA Nationals Underway thread someone stated that course design can eliminate the round dumping issue. As a relatively new SO I’m curious how one does this with the multitude of starting capacities for the different divisions such as 6, 7 +1, 8 +1, 9 +1, 10 +1. How do you design stages that eliminate the possibility of an advantageous point to dump a round? I don't think you can eliminate it entirely reduce it yea sure, but eliminate?

Generally, most guns that are used will have 10 round capability. You reduce the issue for those guns and you will ultimately eliminate most of the problem.

[Greg Bell]

Greg,

I agree with you. The only way to eliminate it is to make everything limited vickers Since you can't do that eliminate penalties for thinking that's what was going on.

I SO'd at the MI State Match and there was one target on our stage that got a lot of shooters putting 3 perfect zeros on it. Dumping? probably most of them but I doubt everyone dumped on it as it was a drop turn. Marksman may have felt they needed the third shot, but SS and up likely knew what they were doing. I feel it is tough position to put us in as I'm not psychic.

[rvb]

The only time I'd be willing to make the call is if I overheard a statement by a competator such as "... take an extra shot here so I can reload here..." Sometimes it seems blatent by the shooter but I have no way of knowing what they were thinking under the clock pressure or how they called their shot. Even if I overheard such a statement I'd most likely say something when they got to the line to the tune of "if you reload before you get to x, I'll ding ya." I know I've thrown extra shots when I didn't call my shot well, or to be safe on a turner.... The math is easy in IDPA, if you think you missed the a-zone and can make it up in <0.5, do it! That mentality can easily lead to a half-dozen extra shots over the course of a major match.

I don't personally see any advantage to round dumping... if it takes you an extra 0.2 to take the "dump" shot, that's an extra 0.2 on your total time, imo, so a mild penalty is "built in."

-rvb

[bruce282]

I SO'd at the MI State Match and there was one target on our stage that got a lot of shooters putting 3 perfect zeros on it. Dumping? probably most of them but I doubt everyone dumped on it as it was a drop turn. Marksman may have felt they needed the third shot, but SS and up likely knew what they were doing. I feel it is tough position to put us in as I'm not psychic.

Greg,

I'm a SS in SSP, and a MM in CDP. I will take 3 shots at any drop turner, or swinger I come across. The same holds true in USPSA, 3 every time.

Bruce

[Joe D]

As a SO I have never given anyone a penality for round dumping. I never will. I guess that is my way of protesting a rule that cannot be enforced.

[Greg Bell]

I SO'd at the MI State Match and there was one target on our stage that got a lot of shooters putting 3 perfect zeros on it. Dumping? probably most of them but I doubt everyone dumped on it as it was a drop turn. Marksman may have felt they needed the third shot, but SS and up likely knew what they were doing. I feel it is tough position to put us in as I'm not psychic.

Greg,

I'm a SS in SSP, and a MM in CDP. I will take 3 shots at any drop turner, or swinger I come across. The same holds true in USPSA, 3 every time.

Bruce

Bruce,

It was 3-4 feet away but you make my point, you as a shooter feel that you need three shots to insure you're down zero. Who am I to say otherwise?

[00bullitt]

If an SO can say with honesty that he/she is 100% sure that the shooter was round dumping.......your abilities may be better suited locating Osama Bin Laden.

It is too subjective of a call to properly enforce with such a harsh penalty. I as an SO will never enforce it either. I'm on the Joe D bandwagon on this one.

[PJONES5]

As a SO I have never given anyone a penality for round dumping. I never will. I guess that is my way of protesting a rule that cannot be enforced.

Round Dumping has been beat to death on this and other Forums.

In my years of Idpa shooting,including SO duties and Match Director at FWCDPC,I have never called round dumping and never will.

Pat

[Loves2Shoot]

I think IDPA would be smart to dumping the penalty. Any good shooter will figure a smart place to trow an extra round or miss the target with the extra shot to save many seconds on a RWR. It is a game and not doing so will cause you to lose. The thing that gets me is there is no way for the shooter to know how the SO will call things, so they have to be "tricky" about it, and with the huge down 1 penalty of .5 seconds, how can you bame folks for not wanting to get all 0's. I know MOST shooters don't call all their shots.

I've enjoyed the little bit of IDPA that I've gotten to shoot, but I would hate to see more matches determined by who you know instead of how you shoot, and I've already seen that.

The other thing is cover, I think they should have fault lines for the feet in cover situations. It would make it much more consistant and safer.

[PJONES5]

I think IDPA would be smart to dumping the penalty. Any good shooter will figure a smart place to trow an extra round or miss the target with the extra shot to save many seconds on a RWR. It is a game and not doing so will cause you to lose. The thing that gets me is there is no way for the shooter to know how the SO will call things, so they have to be "tricky" about it, and with the huge down 1 penalty of .5 seconds, how can you bame folks for not wanting to get all 0's. I know MOST shooters don't call all their shots.

I've enjoyed the little bit of IDPA that I've gotten to shoot, but I would hate to see more matches determined by who you know instead of how you shoot, and I've already seen that.

The other thing is cover, I think they should have fault lines for the feet in cover situations. It would make it much more consistant and safer.

Good Post

I believe the founders in their zeal to make IDPA as far removed from USPSA forgot it is still a game to test shooting skills.

The problem is we still have to many IDPA members that believe it is some type of Real Life Training instead of a Shooting Competition.

No one will ever be happy with all the rules in a rule book,it's just not possible.

pat

[TEXASTACTICAL]

I agree with everyone in this thread.

Here is a little bit of my background in IDPA. I helped start the 1st club here in Texas in 96, Quickly followed by becoming a Certified S.O. I started Match Directing in 97 putting on 3 matches every month for the last 10 years. I am an S.O. instructor. I have been the M.D. for a couple of Regional Matches. I have been to the last 10 IDPA National and have S.O.ed at 9 of them and been a CSO at 7 of them. I am also the Area Coordinator for Texas, New Mexico and Louisiana.

If you have been to the Nationals anytime in the last 9 years I have run you through at least one course of fire and some years 3 COFs. Y'all know what kind of an S.O. and CSO I am. I try to help each shooter when I can. I'm consistent with all my calls and ALWAYS ALWAYS give the shooter the "benefit of the doubt".

The reason for all that info is just to let people know where I'm coming from and my experience as an S.O. I have the same problem everyone else does with the subjectivity of the "round dumping" rule. As many shooters as I have run through Cofs over the years I have highly suspected "RDing" on numerous occasions. But, because there has always been a doubt in my mind I have never called it. I have always adhered to the whole "shooter gets the benefit of the doubt" thing.

I never thought in a million years that I would be forced to assess a FTDR for RDing. Then to my complete shock and dismay an international squad at the IDPA Nationals this year removed all "benefit of the doubt" that I thought I'd always have in regards to RDing.

Every shooter in this squad that was shooting SSP and ESP had the exact same game plan. They were blatantly and consistently Rding in the same place at the same target to get an advantageous reload. I gave them “the benefit of the doubt” because:

1. That’s how I S.O.

2. They are an International Squad

3. It was their first time at the Nationals

4. The language barrier.

I bear a lot of the responsibility for letting it go on too long. At one point I had had enough but was unsure as to how to handle it because of all the above reasons. I had the MD come into the bay to see if he had any reservations about me issuing a FTDR. As he and I walked back into the bay one of my assistant S.O.s had taken over running shooters in my absence. (Btw, great job Mike, Cindy and Kitty!!!) The next shooter was a young lady. She predictably did the exact same thing as the others in front of the MD. I looked at him and he looked at me and said that was about the most blatant Rding he had ever seen. He and I had a quick conversation about how to handle it. We decided to give her an FTDR because we both had seen it and were in complete agreement that it was Rding.

I told him that not only was I going to give her the FTDR. I was also going to put the whole squad on notice. I gathered them all up and told them “we have a problem here” and proceeded to read them the riot act. I told them that what they were doing was against the rules and couldn’t happen anymore at this match or any other IDPA match. It is unfortunate that this happened. It is also unfortunate that this young lady paid the price for the rest of her team. This incident put a real damper on my whole crews day but we did the right thing for the sport.

I apologize for the long post. I just wanted to set the record straight. Hope everyone had fun and hope to see y'all again next year.

[ima45dv8]

I generally stay out of these discussions since I rarely play in the IDPA sandbox any more, but I just wanted to say that if Mike Webb says it happened that way, that's solid gold for me.

Sorry to hear about your dilemma, Mike.

[Loves2Shoot]

That sucks to have to do that Mike.

Here lies the problem that IPDA folks should really address. If the better shooters will dump the rounds descretely, because they have to and if they are smart about it you can't ding them, the lesser skilled shooters will do it with less finess and get dinged.

That one competitor was scored differently than the rest for the same actions takes away from the credibilty of the sport, which is not good.

[Mayonaise]

I generally stay out of these discussions since I rarely play in the IDPA sandbox any more, but I just wanted to say that if Mike Webb says it happened that way, that's solid gold for me.

Sorry to hear about your dilemma, Mike.

I'm with you Mark. I've shot in front of Mike's timer several times. That squad and that shooter put him in a bad position. Mike's a stand up guy and a great SO.

[Bob Hostetter]

First I want to say that I don't know Mr. TexasTactical, and have no idea as to his qualification's as a SO. Nothing that I say here is intended to reflect on him, his integerity, or his ability as an SO. It is intended solely to highlight what I feel are problems with the system.

Without getting into the issue of round dumping itsself, I do have an issue with assigning a FTDR to only one shooter. If you believe they were all doing it on purpose (and you stated you were and in fact based the FTDR on that) then everyone who did it should have received the FTDR. To punish one shooter for an act that everyone else was allowed to do without punishment is wrong. The job of the match staff (AFTER SAFETY OF COURSE) is to ensure that all shooters are given the same courses of fire. If some are punished for doing the same thing as others were allowed to do then some shooters are being required to shoot a different course of fire. At the very least the decision should have been made between shooters, informing everyone that shot after that point that the perceived round dumping would result in an FTDR.

To selectively enforce a rule after watching it repeatedly be broken in your presence without enforcing it perfectly demonstrates the basic problem with the IDPA rulebook. It allows for, it encrouages, subjective application of the rules and the penalities provided for. Before anyone asks I regularly compete in IDPA matches, both large and small. I am a fan of the conceptual idea behind IDPA but believe that it is handicapped by a set of rules that are poorly written and a 'Certified SO' program that doesn't train all SO's equally, instead encrouaging them to use their best judgement. These problem's combine to create a situation that prevents the sport from moving past it's amatuerish beginning's and move forward to what could be a much more professional program which would benefit both the organization and it's membership.

It is sad that we can't convince the IDPA leadership to address these issues........

Edited October 1, 2007 by Bob Hostetter

[00bullitt]

What sucks is that the penalty is so harsh for such a stupip rule. It should only be a procedural. A 3 second procedural cancels out the time gained for going to a slide lock reload via round dumping. By the penalty being so harsh..........that woman's match was shot and she became the example setter for the rest of them. She suffered a penalty that should have been dealt to the whole squad. Again.....because it is so subjective it is hard to rule until Mike saw that it was blatantly obvious in his eyes.

I'm sure Mike is a stand up SO. No doubt there. If Mark Ramsey says so......thats more than enough for me. If both Marks say it....it is without question. He was forced to enforce a rule that ruins matches for people due to the harsh penalty associated with it. And its still a subjective call at that. To issue such a steep penalty......it need not be subjective in any way. Procedurals can be given out subjectively all day without question. They are all the time. The FTDR should not be issued for RD'ing unless a shooter admits to it or is heard bragging about it before or after their turn to shoot. Then it can become unsprtsmanlike conduct and dealt with with a DQ if deemed necessary.

Mike......I ask that you use this experience to help fix this silly rule so someone else is not forced to do and deal with what you had to.

[Jaxshooter]

I have to agree with Bob 100% and this is in no way directed at Mike. This is the ONLY reason I refuse to shoot IDPA at my club. The rules must be enforced consistantly for ALL shooters. I drive 140 miles the first Saturday of the month to attend a USPSA match rather than shoot IDPA at my home club because of instances like this.

Edited October 1, 2007 by Jaxshooter

[Chills1994]

This is not a new topic for this forum.

I started a thread about it on Dec 7, 2005. That's right! Almost 2 years ago. Here's the link:

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?...l=round+dumping

It received 88 replies and some 25 hundred views.

Well, until it got locked.

(slight thread drift on)

Ya know, people could just practice their RWR's and TR's to the point that the time difference (shot to shot) between them and a Slide Lock Reload is almost neglible, especially with the possibility of a 20 second FTDR hanging over their heads for round dumping.

Really really go out to the range look at the time difference for an extra split time, the extra shot and the SLR versus an RWR.

Is it worth it to round dump when you have that 20 second guillotine hanging over your head just for maybe an extra second or second and a half advantage?

(smart a$$ mode on)

Oh that's right! Most people are lazy and don't want to put that kind of work into it. They'd rather skirt the rules.

(off)

[ima45dv8]

How about everybody resisits turning that SmartAss switch on and off (however briefly), in an effort to keep these threads open?

[JFD]

I can't begin to understand how round dumping can be called on a Vickers stage. IDPA has a rule that states I can shoot how ever many rounds I desire in a stage, but at the same time a SO can give me a "cheater, cheater" penalty if I follow that rule.......It makes no sense at all.

The "defensive system" that IDPA uses can at many times be a poor one, and way too based on "not being IPSC". Think about it....If we're already engaging 3+ people in the open, then common sense has already been thrown out the window.....let the sport quit worrying about when and how we reload, and the resulting mind reading required for penalties, and let's get on with the shooting. I'm perfectly willing to throw out all the time I've spent learning how to reload slowly (what else can you call it when you're farting around with an empty/partial mag?)

Having a SO read me the "riot act" when I haven't even shot yet, or maybe thought I needed a make-up shot, just because I'm in a certain squad, doesn't translate into fun for me at all. Makes me think my time would be better spent golfing.

You couldn't keep me away from IDPA if they would only quit worrying about how and when I reload. I carry a gun a lot in real life, and to follow the rules of the sport is to risk "programming" something I consider really unhealthy when it comes to reloading. If it was pure sport and I didn't carry a gun in real life, then I wouldn't care.

[Mayonaise]

Good post Bob. I agree.

We all strive for perfection, but sometimes sh*t happens. Mike gave out the appropriate penalty. I guess he's guilty of not wanting to give it until he was sure. If he didn't, someone, on some forum would be complaining about the guy that allowed an entire squad to dump rounds.

Hindsight in the internet is always 20/10.

[Glocktogo]

This is just a bad topic all around. Mike did what he had to do in both cases. He made the call that needed to be made and he got the "why" info out to all the people who would guess as to the specifics and jump to conclusions. IDPA may never get past the whole "subjective rules" thing. In many cases there isn't a solid narrow black line. There is a grey area that gets crossed in and out of all the time. When he made this call, the shooter in question (actually the whole squad) went past the grey and on to the wrong side.

The only way I have seen to totally eliminate the round dumping issue in a COF is to mix up the round count for various targets where the shooter can't script the reload. I have done this with large numbers in the head boxes for required # of rounds. The shooter pivots on the signal and "identifies" how many rounds for each target as they become visible. This cannot be done for every Vickers count stage and it limits stage design. If we do away with this rule, then the spirit of the various scenarios will be violated all the time. Perhaps the penalty for round dumping should be 3 seconds? It would still be subjective and it would get used a lot more often, creating more SO/shooter friction.

I also see with the cover issue. If we set up fault lines, we encourage the shooter to be looking where they shouldn't, and penalize the lower ranked shooters who cannot accurately place themselves. The only way to eliminate this problem is to set up "low barriers" that restrict the shooters movement at the position but not their view of the targets. Then they wouldn't have the ability to break cover. Perhaps that is something we should play with a little more? It still isn't feasible for all stages.

I still say that the harsher penalties in the NFL can be very subjective and they play for a lot more than a little piece of wood. No one in the league is screaming for those calls to be removed from the game. So why the big furball about IDPA? It ain't perfect and it isn't trying to be. It's just trying to bring competitive dynamic pistol shooting and the real world a little closer together. JMO YMMV

Jerry Biggs

[jm9x23]

I am with Mike on this one. The rule states you can't dump. However the shooter will tell you that "It didn't feel right". The only way to avoid dumping is to make a rule that there will be no make up shots until the course requirements are fulfilled. Then see how many people go back and make up hits.

I was at a match recently where the course of fire was two barrels 10 yards apart and two targets at 10 yards off the end of each barrel. The shooter had to fire one shot then run to the other barrel, then run back and fire a shot and run back and forth until they put three in each target from each barrel. When the shooter was all done he put a couple extra shots in each target from the last barrel and was given a proceedural. It was a Vickers stage and insted of making the shot up at the left barrel he waited till he got to the right barrel and finished all six shots. Find that one in the rules.

As a note, I two have worked at many Nationals and have seen the dumping, its an impossible call. If one shooter was issued the FTDR then every shooter that did the same should have been hit with it and every CSO should have been watching on their COF and made the same call. To avoid reloading is one thing however everyone has to reload somewhere they just choose where they are going to.

That leads to my final point. Scripted reloads and engagement. Its about time that the walk thru was simplified. Shooter will start here, on the buzzer engage all targets with the # of shots required and reload where necessary using cover if available and engage per IDPA rules. Any Questions?