Steel Challenge - 2007

[AlamoShooter]

I am sooo happy As all I did was " Not Screw Up" the match cooks down to = >Extra Shots< I only had five extra shots on my score card for all 8 stages. I kept my last run on every stage as a keeper. If I had not Protected my score by shooting a keeper on the last run = my time /score would have had an added 6.5 seconds on it.

Todd J placed in the top 10 with two guns , JJ placed 5th and 11th with two guns Dave S. placed 6th & 17th with two guns, Strader P placed 7th &24th , Hobdell =9th &25th ,

Mike Tanita placed 2nd open Rev I shot on Mikes squad, He had some very gutsy runs

Doug Carden 2nd Law Enforcement Open & Limited Doug had some smoking runs too

Of the top 10 in the match only three did not shoot the Rimfire Pistole event BJ shot a score of ! 68.38 ! and that was with the new start position.

One of the most amazing things of the match is BJ time of 11,40 for Outer Limits and 8.11 for Showdown

Jamie

[dirtypool40]

My predictions are that my teammates will finish 1st and 2nd. BOTH under 80 seconds. They're my favorites to win!

They have been working really hard, and for the last month or so, both have been training for the Steel Challenge - reason why they haven't been attending much of the USPSA matches.

Army Strong!

Lee, you knew didn't you!!!

It seems there's Strong and then there's AMU STRONG!!!! Congrats to the boys!!!

dvc

es

[MBaneACP]

Hi all!

I can't congratulate Max (and B.J & K.C.) enough! What brilliant performances!

Mickey Fowler, who was working color commentary with me, said that Max's performance on Five To Go was the single most spectacular stage he has ever seen in his years in the sport.

As to what's next, I don't know. I have to present a plan to the OUTDOOR CHANNEL, as does Paul Erhardt at SIGARMS. Frankly, he and I had hoped that our "seed money" would jumpstart the industry into more support for the shooting sports, with the Steel Challenge as the crown jewel. We anticipated reaching $50K + for the contingency money, but that hasn't happened.

Still, I like contingency money a lot, because I get a lot of publicity out of it.

Paul and I had dinner after the match Saturday and hashed out ideas, but we still don't have a specific plan. My inclination is to refocus both SHOOTING GALLERY and a contingency prize on a production gun class for a couple of years, but I haven't discussed that with the Mikes or the top shooters — which both Paul and I would do before we make any decision.

As always, I'm open to suggestions!

Michael B

Edited August 21, 2007 by MBaneACP

[DougCarden]

I had the good fortune to squad twice with AlamoShooter, the Mrs., Stewart and my good friends PMD and Mark Itzstein. Good times, it was awesome to see Jamie shoot a solid match. Congrats to him for sucking it up on the last stage!

I ended up 3rd LE due to Pete Milionus shooting a really solid IDPA gun match. Good job, Pete!

I met some of my goals, one of which was to shoot match times of 5 sec or less on Outer Limits. I have a 4.8 on my scorecard and was in the 15s......great times for me.

My guns, which I built before the match, ran 100%, and my score in rimfire iron sight hung in there for 3rd place. Other than taking back some of my misses I couldnt have had a better time with my friends. I truely look forward to the FL match and to making the trek back to Piru next year.

Now to figure out how to pay for next year's bullet order......

DougC

Edited August 21, 2007 by DougCarden

[EricW]

If the contingency program is going to work, it's going to need a couple things:

1) Steel Challenge needs to start publishing results sooner. It's tough to handicap a race without the stats.

2) The contingencies probably need to be split among the divisions better. Production-style guns probably need to be the race, not the sideshow attraction.

3) The contingency needs to be attainable in order to generate publicity. Keep in mind when setting a new "magic time" that the new one will be much much harder than hitting 80 was. 77 or 78 seconds is probably attainable within a year or two. Better to award 30K every third year than to award 50K every fifth year.

4) Find a way to "roll over" the contingency commitments so that the pot grows as the goal is missed.

5) Make sure that the vendor publicity is there to make the investment worth it. Give the sponsors the option of sponsoring a show segment of the SC coverage. Think about making the show an hour long so that three primary sponsors could each "own" a 16 minute (or whatever the # is) segment.

6) Get the NRA to hype the SC in their publications prior to the air date. Arm wrestle the other gun magazines into doing the same. How can drag racing handguns *not* make for an interesting article?

FWIW....

[adiksaputok]

here it is : http://www.steelchallenge.com/steelchallen...AIN%20MATCH.htm

[uscbigdawg]

2007 Results are up. Todd (TMC) did awesome!

Rich

[D.Hayden]

Very nice job- the Richmond guys did great in the rifle! 1st, 4th and 5th!

[TMC]

Very nice job- the Richmond guys did great in the rifle! 1st, 4th and 5th!

Don't forget John Bagakis won Iron Sight Revolver and was 2nd in IDPA stock and Dan Carden was 2nd Iron Sight revolver and 2nd in the Shogtun event.

[AlamoShooter]

To give some thought to Michael B 's Question and the big Cash for the match Time.

The Show has to bring in viewers , So if the added $$ was tied to breaking World Records that would help Michael's TV show. Sale the thing with any one shooter setting four would records in one match and the "Stage monies" will be matched by the Outdoor Channel and maybe get another sponsor on-board to add to that.

Four World records would be like Old record of running 4Min. mile but more like running a 3Min mile. Or hitting a Base ball that moves at 150mph.

the new total time for the match with the new world records is 75.08 If a shooter set a new record on every stage the match could be shot at ! 75.00 seconds = thats 0.01 better than than the best on each stage.

The added cash to the match helped every one in the industry and the sports. = it created interest and got the normal guy shooting. picking shooting over a day of golf.

BUT I don't know nothing

[EricW]

Here's something I found interesting. I took the scores from this year's match, binned them into 20 second wide bins and plotted them. The way to read this graph is # of shooters whose time was X to X+20 seconds behind the match winner. So, looking at the chart, 25 shooters were 100 to 120 seconds behind Max.

I thought it was interesting that it distills into a double-bell curve. I have my own conclusions, but I'll let you come to your own...

[boo radley]

Here's something I found interesting. I took the scores from this year's match, binned them into 20 second wide bins and plotted them. The way to read this graph is # of shooters whose time was X to X+20 seconds behind the match winner. So, looking at the chart, 25 shooters were 100 to 120 seconds behind Max.

I thought it was interesting that it distills into a double-bell curve. I have my own conclusions, but I'll let you come to your own...

Bimodal distribution. Two distinct classes of shooters? Probably like something you'd see at a Pro-Am golf tournament.

[B.J. Norris]

At least for Steel Challenge, I'm not sure how to work in stock guns in for the big prize money. Mickey Fowler said (not on camera), that Steel Challenge is about being the fastest man (or woman) alive and I agree 100%. Even though Steel Challenge does recognize a lot of different categories and "divisions", most of them only have a separate prize for top three places or so. When it really comes down to it, everybody is shooting heads-up for overall placement and prizes.

The fastest time will always be with an open gun because of the dot sight. Say the contingency money would be for an IDPA Stock shooter to break 90 seconds, I just don't know how to say to Average Joe, who loves watching the match on TV that this guy, who shot an 89 gets $50K, but the guy who won the match and shot a 75 only gets $5K. I'm all for promoting competition with "stock" guns, but I don't see a way to do it in Steel Challenge without trying to turn it into something its not. If you want to promote a lost cost entry, go with rimfire.

Starting from scratch, you could have a set-up like Dave Sevigny's, dot and all for under $1K, same with my 1911 kit if you already have a 1911 frame to put it on. Low cost equipment, low cost ammo, no draws from a holster, very low recoil on lightweight guns. No matter what demographic group you fall into, it's the perfect place to at least start and it's a ton of fun. Make it something like "The 60 Second Challenge" and run with it, it would sound even better if somebody could round up $60K to go with the 60 seconds.

[Pin Shooter]

No offence BJ,

but that would sound a whole lot more attractive to me, if I shot I 68 second rimfire match.......

If the prize was a Ferrari, it would make no difference to the majority of the shooters that support that match, because most of us are there for the raffle, and are only trying to beat our own previous years time.

I think the guy that suggested a pro and am class like golf, could be onto something. I love the match, and will continue to support it, however, it is really becoming a game for the pros. I know that a lot of people will start jumping in at this point, but let me clear up my own observations from the past couple of years. It is truly inspirational to watch the super squad, and I agree that there should be a large focus on them for the match, however, if growing the sport is the aim, after watching shooting galleries coverage of last years challenge, how many ordinary guys would want to come to a match like that? They don't see any of the guys who shoot a 200 second match, but still have a ball, all they see is the frustrated faces of the top 16, and instant replays of an unfortunate event. They don't see the juniors.....I mean the really young ones...they don't see the seniors...I mean the really old ones..... They only see the match shot by the fastest in the world, and under tight pressure conditions...? They don't see that the guy who comes in way down the list, still has the opportunity to pick a great prize from the table, they only see the money slip through the fingers of the top few. I don't want to sound negative, I am only giving my opinion from a perspective of growing the sport.

The side events have turned into a raffle, because, whether you agree or not, the majority of shooters cannot compete on a level playing field with proffesionals. This isn't a case of sour grapes, it is just the fact. Taran probably can't lay bricks as fast as a bricklayer, and Jerry probably doesn't know how to wire a PLC, and most humans, that don't shoot daily will be able to compete at the same level as these guys. It is just a fact........

The next problem becomes, how do you distinguish who is who....Some cases are simple.....Jerry, Todd, Rob, but there are a lot of top shooters who would fit into the grey area....yourself included....

I think that Steel Challenge is one of the best matches around, and I have always been excited to shoot it, and compete against the best, I have forged many friendships, as a result of meeting lots of people through the Steel Challenge, and I will continue to encourage new shooters to try it, however.......the BIG BUCKS don't have that much effect on me or the other 90% of entrants.

Good luck next year BJ. You truly are a dynamic shooter, and I am glad to see that the majority of the contenders are great people, and good for the sport. I know that they won't make it easy for you........

Mark

Edited August 24, 2007 by Pin Shooter

[outerlimits]

i shot the steel challenge from 1984 thru 2002-finally got bored with it. on to 3 gun.

kirby tried the pro/am deal back in the early 90's, but it still didn't change anything.

heck, let's just move outer limits back to 20/25/40 yds, and speed option to 25 and 35-the way they used to be.

[uscbigdawg]

I hate the argument of "the masses supporting the sport" DESERVING more. First of all, I read this as, "I'm not willing to practice and since I paid a match fee, I want a gun too. It's whining for the sake of whining.

I'm not a great shooter (yet) by any stretch, but have had matches where I've left with a gun and others where I've been LUCKY to get the sight black on the Open prize table. Fact is that the top shooters have busted their ass for years. If they want to be the best/fastest brick layer, their personalities to work hard and try to be the best will drive them to do so.

Rob, Todd, Max, KC, et. al. did not magically become great. Heck, I remember was KC was like 9, shooting a 5" Limcat Open gun that the muzzle was practically draggin' on the ground. Or at the AZ State one year when he literally had to jump up to point his gun through a port when the MD wouldn't allow a step for him (yeah he was that short to where he couldn't see through the port).

I've shot the steel challenge stages once at a range in Sac and shot it under 100 seconds with a major PF open gun. I'm not a threat to win the thing at any time soon, but will do respectfully the first time I shoot in it. It's a simple match. Draw, aim, shoot, transition, shoot, repeat 'til you hit the stop plate. When I do train up for it, yeah, I'll be lucky to have shooters like Bagakis, Carden, TMC, Jame Ong and Butch from which I can draw info from. Heck, the one time I shot it James and I were squadded together and he was key in showing me what plates to shoot when. Bottom line is that IF NOTHING ELSE, it's a specific skill set that can be translated to our other shooting (who in IPSC doesn't want to get way better at their transitions?).

Having a negative attitude of 'I just don't want to miss' or 'I just want to do better than last year' or 'I just want to get something cool out of the raffle' is self defeating. You're putting yourself at a loss before you've fired the first shot. Show up having practiced solid at home pushing beyond your limits (>100%). Get to the match, tell yourself that I've shot these same stages at my home range, I know what I'm capable of doing, dial it to 90-95% and then shoot YOUR match. You do that and I would bet you can EARN something better than anything off the prize table. That's knowing you shot a great, clean match and you maybe WON something in the end, rather than hoping for something.

Rich

[driver8M3]

Having a negative attitude of...'I just want to do better than last year'

that's a negative attitude?

[uscbigdawg]

Being satisfied by "just" beating it is TO ME. It's a year. I want to destroy my previous time.

Rich

[Jake Di Vita]

Amen.

[TRNinTX]

We were discussing the prize money again tonight and came up with the idea of a big payout for the Steelmaster. This would increase the participation in Rimfire and Limited as well as Open. It would also limit the time the entrants get on the practice range since they would be shooting a match each day.

Times could be:

Rimfire - 65

Limited - 85

Optic - 75

Match Total - 225

Or any combination that beat that number

Edited August 26, 2007 by TRNinTX

[Jake Di Vita]

I like the idea. Rewards proficiency with the different platforms and requires an obscene amount of consistency.

[Pin Shooter]

I hate the argument of "the masses supporting the sport" DESERVING more. First of all, I read this as, "I'm not willing to practice and since I paid a match fee, I want a gun too. It's whining for the sake of whining.

Rich.....

You are correct...."First of all you read this as " read it again, and if you still don't undertsand the content of this discussion, ask someone to explain it to you.

I don't see anyone whining....I see an open forum, discussing potential ways to enhance the sport. With 3000 plus posts, you seem to have a great deal of input. Let's hear some pro active ideas from you.

Regards

Mark

[uscbigdawg]

Mark,

This is the same argument we hear in USPSA about prize table distribution. Overall finish or by class. Why does the 1st D who finished in say the top 150 get to go ahead of the guy who's 2nd or 3rd overall in the match? Just 'cause he's not a "pro"? Let's dispell the myth again. Just 'cause someone makes Master or Grandmaster doesn't mean the cash truck rolls up to the house with sponsors and bikini clad booth girls for you to take to the SHOT Show. They are at the top 'cause they worked their butt off, made the decision to sacrifice A LOT and committed to something and that's why they are there. That "sweat equity" is why prize tables should be overall finish.

You think BJ just woke up and was able to shoot that 68 second rimfire time? Anything, in shooting, life or otherwise, is going to favor whomever puts in the most work...period. The guy with the 200 second run doesn't get shown, 'cause well...he shot 200 seconds. The Top 16 is where we want to be and apparently people that aren't pro's, from countries that aren't even allowed to have guns do a pretty decent job at the SC, so again, is it that the US "pro" shooters are better or do both (US and international shooters) just work harder.

I'll hopefully be there next year and my goal for my FIRST Steel Challenge will be less than 100 seconds. I either get it or I won't. I don't care about prize tables or if I'm on TV. I shoot to see how well I can do....against myself.

Rich

Edited August 27, 2007 by uscbigdawg

[DougCarden]

Rich, +1 to your post!

Mark, PMD and I drank a lot of beer in the hotel and we agree with your take wholeheartedly! I dont wish to talk for Mark, cuz I cant talk funny like he does..... but what he meant is to grow the sport of Steel Challenge, not just the main match. We were talking about the mainstream sport. Probably pipe dreams, since steel seem to intimdate so many shooters for some reason......I am proud to be a Steel Challenge afficiando, and will keep going out for the matches as long as I can swing it.

First beer is on me next year....

DougC

[Pin Shooter]

Rich,

Firstly, thanks to Doug for bringing us back to point...........My concern is growing the sport of Pistol Shooting in general. Although my match scores haven't reflected it of late, I too am shooting the match around the 100 seconds barrier, and I am pleased to say that " normally" I am shooting faster each year. The "Prize Table" isn't my motivation for attending a lot of these matches, having said that, I have picked up my fair share of guns from this match and others over the past 5 years, and let's face it....there is nothing better than winning a gun....

I also agree that the "pros" or at least the guys that we all consider pros, or pro quality shooters should be rewarded for their continued efforts, and I have been the victim on several occasions of the B/C/D shooter getting to the table before me.

I actually find one of the attractions of the Steel Challenge is that you are heads up with the best of the best.

Side events are similar to being in a raffle, because, if you don't shoot daily ( have the devotion ) call it whatever we want to, the fact remains that you aren't going to lay bricks as fast as someone who gets paid to lay bricks, every day.

As for TV coverage......the guys that shoots 200, still pays to shoot the match, and isn't that what these big matches are all about....to promote the growth of the sport / industry and introduce new blood every year. If not, why don't the Mikes and Shooting Gallery just have an invitational match for the top 32, and save themselves all of the hardwork of catering for the other 200 shooters. I agree with your " sweat equity " ideals, and also believe that prize tables should be geared to encourage people to finish well overall. This ideal also reduces the " Sanbaggers" from staying in C Class and helping themselves to the prize table early at every match, however, I have seen B/C/D shooters get to the table before me many times, and I was glad to see that they were able to experience the thrill of being up there quick. I think that even though, mathematically I should have been at the table before them, I have in part, helped to encourage people in the shooting sports. Like I said, my main motivation is to shoot the match....not the prize tables.

Perhaps we can get squadded together next year.....We can push each other to beat 100?

Mark