N320's Replacement

[3GunF1Guy]

I have been using N320 for a long time. I like VV powder but lately it has gotten harder and harder to keep using it. It has gotten more expensive and no one in my area carries it on the shelf except every once in a while you can find the 1lb cans of it and then it is priced at $23.00 per lb. I could mail order it, Powder Valley carries it for 73.95 per 4lb container and right now (08/06/2007) they are out. Still it is EXPENSIVE. For example 8lbs of Tightgroup is only $94.00.

So I started looking around for a powder to replace N320 with. Tightgroup came to mind. But my experience with Tightgroup in the shotgun did not make me very fond of wanting to use it in my pistol. To me it seemed dirty and had a sharp recoil impulse when compared to Red Dot. The felt recoil with Tightgroup is so bad I still have 3lb out of a 4lb container left and I will NOT use it again in the shotgun.

I want a clean powder that throws consistently and smokes as little as possible with lead or polymer coated bullets. I also want it to cost less than N320. So I started looking around at the powders to switch to and what I wanted was a powder that was like what I use in my shotgun, clean, inexpensive, clean, throws well and clean. The powder that I use in my shotgun is Alliant E3, I love it in the shotgun, So I thought I would try it in the pistol. I shoot a SV 40 cal pistol. I have been loading Precision 185 grain poly bullets with 4.25 grains of N320 to a length of 1.171

To make the switch to E3, I needed a powder charge to start with. E3 is the same burn speed as Red Dot but is about 10% more powerful grain for grain. I took the Red Dot info and guesstimated a powder charge to shoot the bullet at the speed I wanted, then I dropped that by 10%. I started a 4.5 grains and after a couple of crono sestions here is what I have so far.

This first group is my N320 load loaded on a 650 just doing normal reloading. It is here for comparison to the E3 load.

4.25 grains N320, Precision 185 grain poly bullets, CCI SR primer, 1.171 long

Millennium Data Collector - 8/5/07

GROUP #1

1) 867.6 -28.0ƒ

2) 895.8 0.2

3) 883.0 -12.6

4) 904.2 8.6

5) 894.8 -0.8

6) 909.6 14.0

7) 910.6 15.0

8) 882.2 -13.4

9) 910.2 14.6

10) 898.4 2.8

High: 910.6

Low: 867.6

E.S.: 43.0

Ave.: 895.6

S.D.: 14.2

95%: ±10.7

This second group is my E3 load loaded on a 650 just doing normal reloading.

4.1 grains E3, Precision 185 grain poly bullets, CCI SR primer, 1.171 long

GROUP #2

1) 931.2 0.6

2) 927.4 -3.2

3) 927.8 -2.8

4) 919.8 -10.8ƒ

5) 929.0 -1.6

6) 930.8 0.2

7) 926.0 -4.6

8) 939.8 9.2

9) 941.4 10.8ƒ

10) 933.4 2.8

High: 941.4

Low: 919.8

E.S.: 21.6

Ave.: 930.6

S.D.: 6.2

95%: ±4.7

Both of these were shot over the crono within 3 minutes of each other. 95 degrees, sunny, slight breeze at about 4800’ of elevation.

The E3 for will result in a lower powder charge that N320. I will probably end up at somewhere around 4.0 grains of E3 for a major power factor load. I know this is hard to believe but if you look at the data the SD and the ES is lower with the E3 load. I shot 200 rds at a match on sat (8/4/07) and the powder was clean. I does the same thing in my pistol as it does in my shotgun. I just gets a light brown color on it not black like the N320 does. Also it seemed to smoke less than the N320, and that is not much to start with. When Handloader magazine tested N320 they listed E3/Red Dot at about the same burn speed. I noticed no pressure signs with E3.

The E3 list of advantages for me is these:

Cost less – N320, $78.95 for 4lbs plus hasmat and shipping. E3, $110.00 for 8lbs at Sportsmans W. down the street.

As clean or cleaner.- Alliant claim E3 as the CLEANEST POWDER MADE.

Lower powder charge.

Smokes less – Remember this is a shotgun powder made not to burn the hulls or plastic and paper wads. So it should smoke lead and poly bullets less. I loaded 10 Lasercast 180gr lead bullets with E3 and they did not smoke at all.

Better ballistics- Better SD and ES. On some of the shotgun forums I have read where shotgunners like E3 in the extreme cold because it is the most consistent over a wide range of temps.

More volumetric than N320 – The E3 took about 1.5 turns on my Dillon powder throw to get up to 4.1 grs. It fills the case more, also I noticed that grains do not “jump” out of the case like N320 does when reloading on my 650.

Made in the USA

I am going to try E3 for a while or until I can find a good reason to go back to N320. Like they start carring down the street at Sportmands and the price is cut in half.

Scott

[ChuckS]

Scott,

Thanks for the info. With the cost of everything going up, info like this is great! That said, aren't you cutting it a hair close to minor with the 320 load?

Later,

Chuck

[uscbigdawg]

Try Titegroup. SOFT...and easy to get. Some of the Ramshot powders might be worthwhile too.

Rich

[G-ManBart]

Scott,

Good stuff! How does it feel compared with N320? I like the way 320 feels and don't really want anything snappier. I'm not overly worried about the price of N320, but the availability is a pain.

[shred]

Thanks for the info. I've been using my leftover stash of N320 for Super steel loads (4.9gr and a 115 JHP), but was wondering if I was going to order more. I may have to grab a lb of E3 and try it out.

Titegroup is too dirty and the cases come out really hot at the same PF. Universal Clays is dirty, but not as hot as TG. 7625 doesn't want to run the gun. 4756 is soft but dirty again..

[ChuckS]

+1 on the Ramshot! I have been using Silhouette in my open gun with pretty good results. I first tried N350 and wound up using N340. I wanted to find something in between and Sil is it. And the price relative to the N3_0 is pretty nice.

Later,

Chuck

Edited August 7, 2007 by ChuckS

[Merlin Orr]

One of my burn rate charts has Red Dot at just a tad faster than Clays...... If this powder is the same as Red Dot - which is (might be) faster than Clays... Better be very careful.

[Chris Keen]

Yes be careful ...... but I know shooters using Vit 310 in LTD .... which is faster than all of the above.

[Joe4d]

Was thinking of American Select now that .45ACP is in my mix, based on the large case I cant see tightgroup working to well will also be loading 44 magnum reduced Cowboy level loads. again dont think TG is the powder. I really havent found tightgroup to be dirty or cause smoke problems may give the E-3 a try but was considering a slightly slower powder, I do like seeing the "Made in USA " labels on Alliants products.

[3GunF1Guy]

One of my burn rate charts has Red Dot at just a tad faster than Clays...... If this powder is the same as Red Dot - which is (might be) faster than Clays... Better be very careful.

I have noticed some of the charts show Red Dot to be faster than N320 and some show them close. Give it a try and then you can decide how fast it is. But like I said Handloader Magazine in their review of N320 said that it was about the same speed as Red Dot.

Also I could not tell you how snappy the gun is when compared to N320. I do not have that skill level in my pistol shooting.

I do have some brass I could take a picture of and show you the primers with the test ammo I did witha 4.5 grain charge of E3. I'll try to post it tomorrow.

Scott

[Carlos]

E3 should be an excellent alternative. But, Unlike N320, E3 is a double base powder where as N320 is single base.

Want a US made, single base powder to replace N320? Accurate Arms Solo 1000 has published, book loads for .40 and its clean & soft shooting.

At to "Caution" above, we all know that N320 was perfectly safe at 175 to 180 PF; years of use in Limited proved that. So, is N320 safe at 165 to 170?

Of course it is.

Is there a wider margin of safety at 165 PF?

Of course. Which is one reason that reasonable, careful, professional shooters like TGO and Hennin have mentioned using even faster powders like N310 (TGO) and straight Clays (Henning).

Point is: just because a powder is listed on a burn rate chart as fast or faster than N320 does not mean its unsafe.

I'll stick with single base Solo 1000 as I personally believe that such powder is less likely to spike pressure than a double base.

[LPatterson]

Was thinking of American Select now that .45ACP is in my mix, based on the large case I cant see tightgroup working to well will also be loading 44 magnum reduced Cowboy level loads. again dont think TG is the powder. I really havent found tightgroup to be dirty or cause smoke problems may give the E-3 a try but was considering a slightly slower powder, I do like seeing the "Made in USA " labels on Alliants products.

I tried the American Select with some moly 230gr 45's and got as much smoke as straight lead. I tried Trail Boss but couldn't make major however I do think it would work for Cowboy loads. I switched to 4.5 of WST for the 45 with 230's.

[3GunF1Guy]

Just for fun lets say that E3 is Red Dot. The amount of data available for Red Dot is huge. It has also been used for many years. If you look at the Red Dot data I am WAY below the current listings by Alliant. For example in Alliant’s 2004 reloader guide it shows a 180 gr JHP load of 5.5gr Red Dot at 1015 fps and a 190gr JHP load of 5.4gr Red Dot at 955 fps. My loads of 4.1gr of E3 including it's 10% more powerful charge is way under max. Also remember E3 is a new powder, I have an 8lb container with a lot #4 Jun 03 on it. In the past 100 years since unique and 50 years since Solo 1000 was made there have been huge advances in chemical modeling and formulation. Just look at the pharmaceutical industry. Yes E3 is a double based powder but Alliant claims is the cleanest burning powder made. If we relied on our old ways of thinking we would say that a double based powder is always dirtier than a single basted powder. We can no longer assume that. We may also have to revaluate our thoughts that a double based powder can spike theory. Before you knock it go buy a 1lb bottle and give it a try.

Scott

[Carlos]

No knock on E3 here. To the contrary, about 3 years ago I talked a friend into buying a pound along with his new Dillon reloader. He never really caught the reloading bug & I bet that lb of E3 is still in his basement - I might just buy it from him to try out in Major .40. Clean, fast burning & cheap - what is not to like?

Agree 100% that powder technology has advanced over time - which is what drives me bonkers when most of the reloaders I know outside of USPSA simply turn to Antique - er, I meant Unique - without giving any new powder a second thought. Mention Vihta Vouri to most of the fudds at the range and you are met with a blank stare or "Vihta what?! Ne'er herd of it! No thanks, I'll just use what my grandpapppy trusted."

I want E3 to take off because it seems better than many heirloom powders in common use (after a century). I want them to keep making Solo 1000 because its my N320 substitute in the wake of price increases. And I also would not mind if Hodgdon sees to it that Vihta Vouri is stocked in every gunstore that carries Hodgdon reloading supplies & tries to get the price well under the $20+ per lb. we often see now.

Regards,

d.

Edited August 7, 2007 by Carlos

[3GunF1Guy]

Here is some of the cases I started with. They were all loaded with 4.5gr E3 and a Fed sr primer and loaded to 1.177 long. I listed the diffrent bullets in each case next to them.

Scott

[sargenv]

Not to hijack the thread, but I recently loaded up some major ammo using Zero 180 JTC bullets. I used 4.9 gr of Green Dot and they made major nicely.. The one thing that caught my eye though was they grouped better out of my 610 than anything else I tried. I actually used 4.9 of Green Dot with 5 diff bullets. I was actually surprised by the results. Velocity was really consistent. I seated them a bit long, but they may be under 1.200" that a lot of people use. Will check up on my results later. I was looking for something to shoot at the CanadianNationals at their 50 yard fixed time stage. I managed to score a 51 on that. (120 possible, 50 yards, 10 seconds, 6 reload 6 freestyle, then move to 25m and do 6 reload 6 strong hand only in 10 sec). My standard load with 140's was having trouble printing on target at that distance. I havea pound of E3 that I'm going to play with also.

[lcs]

<br />E3 should be an excellent alternative. But, Unlike N320, E3 is a double base powder where as N320 is single base. <br /><br />Want a US made, single base powder to replace N320? Accurate Arms Solo 1000 has published, book loads for .40 and its clean & soft shooting.<br /><br />At to "Caution" above, we all know that N320 was perfectly safe at 175 to 180 PF; years of use in Limited proved that. So, is N320 safe at 165 to 170?<br /><br />Of course it is.<br /><br />Is there a wider margin of safety at 165 PF?<br /><br />Of course. Which is one reason that reasonable, careful, professional shooters like TGO and Hennin have mentioned using even faster powders like N310 (TGO) and straight Clays (Henning).<br /><br />Point is: just because a powder is listed on a burn rate chart as fast or faster than N320 does not mean its unsafe. <br /><br />I'll stick with single base Solo 1000 as I personally believe that such powder is less likely to spike pressure than a double base.<br />

<br /><br /><br />

Does not appear to be any 40 load data for Solo 1000 listed on Accurate Arms web site reloading guide. Am I missing something?

N310 is probably the softest shooting powder I've tried in 40. Would not mind trying Solo 1000 if it was published.

[Irishlad]

without giving any new powder a second thought. Mention Vihta Vouri to most of the fudds at the range and you are met with a blank stare or "Vihta what?! Ne'er herd of it! No thanks, I'll just use what my grandpapppy trusted."

Ha, that sounds almost like me.

But, I checked the price first...and then I laughed and said "Vihta what? ".

[Carlos]

Primers look nice & rounded - no indication of excess pressure there! Seems like E3 is a winner.

Sorry for the diversion from E3, but here is a link to published Solo 1000 data:

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?...ost&id=6758

[lcs]

Didn't mean to divert thread either. Thanks for the link.

[Joe4d]

from the horses mouth....... I was intrigued by the burn rate burn temp and cleanness (is that a word) as well as the made in USA, so I wrote Alliant and asked for data, on 9mm, 40 , 45 action pistol cast and moly loads, their reply is below:

E3 may work well in these applications, However most of these shooters are using progressive presses, such as Dillon. Typically the flake powders do not meter as accurately in such small charge weights as these cartridges require. For this reason the smaller flake powders such as Bulleseye and Power Pistol are more desirable. Have you tried the before ?

I replied I had but found them unsuitable due to Bullseye dirt and Power Pistol too slow for my application, he replied:

If you decide to try e3, the charge wt recommendations will be about the

same as Red Dot, perhaps a tiny bit lighter. Keep me posted.

Think I am gonna give it a worl looks like only problem may be metering, did the original poster notice any issues ?

[3GunF1Guy]

from the horses mouth....... I was intrigued by the burn rate burn temp and cleanness (is that a word) as well as the made in USA, so I wrote Alliant and asked for data, on 9mm, 40 , 45 action pistol cast and moly loads, their reply is below:

E3 may work well in these applications, However most of these shooters are using progressive presses, such as Dillon. Typically the flake powders do not meter as accurately in such small charge weights as these cartridges require. For this reason the smaller flake powders such as Bulleseye and Power Pistol are more desirable. Have you tried the before ?

I replied I had but found them unsuitable due to Bullseye dirt and Power Pistol too slow for my application, he replied:

If you decide to try e3, the charge wt recommendations will be about the

same as Red Dot, perhaps a tiny bit lighter. Keep me posted.

Think I am gonna give it a worl looks like only problem may be metering, did the original poster notice any issues ?

If you look at my crono results you will notice that the ES is better than with the N320. When I loaded both of the loads I just dump the powder in the Dillon powder measure and loaded ammo. I did not do anything different than I normally do when I reload. I just used 10rds of the E3 out of a batch of 200 rds that I used at a match on Saturday.

I find Alliant's responce a little ... weird about the powder and a progressive press. Most, if not all shotgunners that reload any volume do it on a progressive press. But I did test the drop of E3 when I started to think about using in my Dillon. Because I did have the same concern, "Would it throw well".

I used a Pact electronic scale and would throw a charge into a case then dump it in a pan, for a total of 4 throws, then measure the charge. After 6 times I stopped. Here are my results.

#1 17.0gr - going fast

#2 17.1gr - going fast

#3 17.0gr - smooth and soft

#4 17.1gr - smooth and soft

#5 17.0gr - jiggle and hit press after each throw

#6 17.0gr - jiggle and hit press after each throw

To me it looked more than good. No matter how fast or slow I went it was very consistent.

Scott

[Carlos]

Also surprised at Aliant's advice. I have loaded plenty of flake powder in my 650 - including Red Dot, Clays and now Solo 1000. Dillon meters them all well & I am sure E3 will be no exception.

[XRe]

Most, if not all shotgunners that reload any volume do it on a progressive press.

The response did mention small charge weights - whereas the shotgun charges aren't all that small.... Your chrono results would suggest that it meters well enough, anyway, so....

[Franksremote]

TG is basically 320. I use it with moly 180s for practice ammo and 310 with 180 MG FMJ/JHP for match stuff. Both are extremely soft when combined with their respective bullet partners and no signs of pressure while making major without issue. Yes, I load to 1.20 OAL. My 2 cents, change welcome.