The Endless Prize Table Thread

[Jake Di Vita]

You are taking what I'm saying completely wrong.

This has nothing to do with me...I won't even be shooting for the foreseeable future.

Just because the winners would get more than they do now doesn't mean the sport stops appealing to all levels of competitors. The vast majority of shooters compete now for fun...do you honestly think changing the prize structure would change that?

I do agree we need all the shooters we can get...but as for the ones we do have I'd like to give them as much incentive to improve as possible. The people who shoot for fun will improve at their own pace regardless of prizes. For the people who desire to take this more seriously the only other way of doing that is having a tangible reward for their effort.

Don't make me out to be the bad guy because I want the best shooters in the country to be rewarded for their efforts. I would be saying this if I was a B class shooter too.

[JFD]

I think it comes down to the majority of folks financing a match don't want to pay for the "big win" for a handful of shooters when they know that our sport is based on competing against folks with similar skills and equipment. Why should "competing against folks with similar skills and equipment" be thrown out the window when it comes to awards?

This IS a hobby sport, and hobby sports survive and maybe even prosper by spreading the cash around.

I wouldn't mind our sport taking a tip from golf and paying attention to Amateur Status versus Professional Status. Get all the equipment you want and stay an amateur, but take a dollar in prize money and you're now a Pro, and Pros don't compete against Amateurs. We'd either see bigger prize tables or hopefully lower match fees. Pros would get their money from sponsors based on their ability to generate revenue, just like the rest of the big money sports.

If you are in the sport for the money instead of the fun, then take another tip from golf and start a Calcutta. Finance your own "big payday".

Personally I'd take care of sandbaggers by automatically promoting any class winner to the next class in anything above a level 1 match.

[DrShooter]

I'm going to Area 1 next week and I went to the same match last year. There are cash prizes for division winners scaled to number of entrants. The prize table is by random drawing. Here's the URL: http://www.northwestsection.org/2007Area1/default.html

I went to L10 nationals and there the prize table was by rank, except for the junior, lady, senior, etc. promotions.

Speaking for myself, I like the way Area 1 does it. If the match gets bigger and bigger, just pay bigger cash prizes for the winners. I would imagine the good shooters just dump their prize-table booty on the resale market for cash anyway. I don't think that is very fun and doesn't get what the sponsors want to achieve by donating in the first place.

Oh, a Springfield sponsored pro gets a Glock... he dumps it for cash. Glock gets competition in the resale market as a reward.

I think we would all like to see the professional aspects of the sport improve, and that means cash prizes to the top finishers and / or general purpose "best drive" "best stage" merchandise like cars and trucks, i.e. that doesn't interfere with the shooting sponsors. Leave the prize table for the non-sponsored shooters by drawing or even auction off some of the spiffier prizes to raise money for the cash prizes and draw for the rest. Use a silent auction at the beginning of the tournament so you could announce the extra cash add-ons at the award ceremony.

And yes, I'm never likely to "win" a cash prize. And I got equal prizes by ranking and by random drawing. My luck and skill seem to be of equal quality.

[tgibson]

I'd wager at least half the parts and trinkets on a prize table (or more) is bought.

You would lose that bet by a longshot. Only about a third of the matches that we sponsored last year bought anything from us and the ones that did made relatively small purchases. Match fees do not have anything to do with money spent on prize tables - that is a myth. On average 90-95% of the prizes are donated in return for vendor space or so called advertising in the match book, etc.

Ok, so I lose the bet. I can't speak for all vendors, and all matches, but from first hand experience SOME matches buy a large amount of the prizes that are on the table. The one in particular I'm most familiar with was not sponsored by Brazos. Sorry to lump everyone in the same pile.

I am able to speak for both sides of the table when it comes to both pistol matches and 3 gun. We put on one of the largest 3 gun matches in the nation and the only thing we buy are timers at a discounted rate from CED which we give away at the end of the match (Thanks CED). EVEYRTHING else on the prize table is donated by sponsors. All of the money we get from entry fees goes into the match and paying the meager salaries we can afford to the ROs.

One thing we like to pride ouselvs on is being one of the biggest target manufacturer contibuters to both USPSA and 3 gun matches. To the best of my knowledge we have never donated cash to a match. We always donate targets as either prizes or contributions to the club hosting the match. Like Jake said, most of the people don't shoot the matches for the prizes, but we still need to make sure we don't forget the people who do sponsor the matches.

TG

[HoMiE]

Speaking for myself, I like the way Area 1 does it. If the match gets bigger and bigger, just pay bigger cash prizes for the winners. I would imagine the good shooters just dump their prize-table booty on the resale market for cash anyway. I don't think that is very fun and doesn't get what the sponsors want to achieve by donating in the first place.

Oh, a Springfield sponsored pro gets a Glock... he dumps it for cash. Glock gets competition in the resale market as a reward.

I think we would all like to see the professional aspects of the sport improve, and that means cash prizes to the top finishers and / or general purpose "best drive" "best stage" merchandise like cars and trucks, i.e. that doesn't interfere with the shooting sponsors. Leave the prize table for the non-sponsored shooters by drawing or even auction off some of the spiffier prizes to raise money for the cash prizes and draw for the rest. Use a silent auction at the beginning of the tournament so you could announce the extra cash add-ons at the award ceremony.

And yes, I'm never likely to "win" a cash prize. And I got equal prizes by ranking and by random drawing. My luck and skill seem to be of equal quality.

Yeah, why do so many people who win just end up selling the prizes anyway. Why not make it a cash payout for those who want to compete for cash. Leave the gear to the people who need it and won't sell it. I like the idea of auction to help raise money for the hosting club. I also agree that sponsors don't want to see their prizes being sold at a discount after being won. I know USPSA doesn't give out championship rings, but I have never seen one for sale?

[shred]

One thing we like to pride ourselves on is being one of the biggest target manufacturer contributers to both USPSA and 3 gun matches. To the best of my knowledge we have never donated cash to a match. We always donate targets as either prizes or contributions to the club hosting the match. Like Jake said, most of the people don't shoot the matches for the prizes, but we still need to make sure we don't forget the people who do sponsor the matches.

TG

Ok I'm guilty here. I passed up some STI frames to pick a really cool MGM IPSC-hostage target at Area 4 since I have frames and can never have enough steel. Shot a few thousand Major Super loads on it and nary a ding. I was gonna send MGM a nice e-mail thanking them for it, but then the next week I won a certificate for a free MGM Auto Popper, and thought I'd include a real proper thank-you note like Mom always wanted, but alas, I haven't sent in the cert in yet.. Did I mention MGM rocks???

[smokshwn]

Just because the winners would get more than they do now doesn't mean the sport stops appealing to all levels of competitors. The vast majority of shooters compete now for fun...do you honestly think changing the prize structure would change that?

Actually yes. The vast majority of shooters do compete for fun, however part of that fun is very much tied to the occasional prize or even the chance of a prize. If you make up a prize structure that eliminates that before the game begins I would supsect it would have a larger affect than you think.

Now. To throw a big monkey wrench in the system, how about we leave matches alone with respect to prize/trophy distribution. Let's talk about added cash money purses. The purse runs completely separate from the other match prizes. You pay a purse entry prize and then the purse is awarded based on division, class, and participation level. For instance if 25 C class shooters pay into $50 into the purse, the match admin could pay out on a 5:1 ration so the five top shooters could get paid. Breakdown could be 40%, 30%, 15%, 10%, and 5%.

This would allow the match to run trophies for recognition, a prize table to encourage sponsors and advertising, and a purse for those who were working hard to garner wins and help finance their shooting.

Everyone would be happy

[tightloop]

this was NEVER supposed to be a prize of cash sport...If you have to win something, anything, do something else and do away with the prize table...

[shred]

Like it or not, top shooters show up where the money is, most not being wealthy enough or sponsored enough to just wander the country in a van shooting matches and solving mysteries ("My plan woulda worked if it wasn't for those meddling GMs!" )

If you want to shoot with the top shooters (a common "what I like about IPSC"), then you've gotta get them there. Internationally they have no prize tables, but some matches have a policy (announced or not) of paying the top shooter(s) to show up-- sometimes by comping some or all of entry fees, travel and/or lodging, or setting up exclusive classes just before and after the match or some other option, 'cause the big boys won't show if they don't, and correspondingly, interest and registrations from everybody else declines. It's a win-win system for the match directors and top shooters, but feels a little underhanded to me.

I would rather have a prize-table where it's upfront about what the winners could get 'paid' and one they have to work for versus a prepaid-entry-for-a-few system.

FWIW, the match fees of international matches resemble or exceed fees for prize-table matches here, so I doubt there's a lot of $ to be gained not-having one although the work level is 10x less for the sponsor coordinator.

[tightloop]

Like it or not, top shooters show up where the money is, most not being wealthy enough or sponsored enough to just wander the country in a van shooting matches and solving mysteries ("My plan woulda worked if it wasn't for those meddling GMs!" )

If you want to shoot with the top shooters (a common "what I like about IPSC"), then you've gotta get them there. Internationally they have no prize tables, but some matches have a policy (announced or not) of paying the top shooter(s) to show up-- sometimes by comping some or all of entry fees, travel and/or lodging, or setting up exclusive classes just before and after the match or some other option, 'cause the big boys won't show if they don't, and correspondingly, interest and registrations from everybody else declines. It's a win-win system for the match directors and top shooters, but feels a little underhanded to me.

I would rather have a prize-table where it's upfront about what the winners could get 'paid' and one they have to work for versus a prepaid-entry-for-a-few system.

FWIW, the match fees of international matches resemble or exceed fees for prize-table matches here, so I doubt there's a lot of $ to be gained not-having one although the work level is 10x less for the sponsor coordinator.

Well, my personal feelings are that IF they have to be paid or comp'ed to shoot, let the F**Kers stay home...sure we'd all like to shoot with someone special, but not if that is what it takes to get them there....Pretty soon if NOONE paid them or comp'ed them...they might learn that the world doesn't turn around them and start doing the right thing...that being to pay their entry fee and shoot like everyone else.

Edited August 6, 2007 by tightloop

[Sean Gaines]

I think that the lower class shooters are going to like the random drawing, The top shooters or the ones who are higher in finish at every match liking the order of finish for the prize table. Plain and simple, but how can you argue with the masses, when the majority of shooters are B class and lower.

I agree with jake for the most part, that if you work your butt off you should get paid or highly rewarded for your individual achievments.

This is the only sport I know of that rewards mediocre performances. A person who finished dead last has a chance of getting a real nice prize. Horrible way of doing things in my oppinion. That wouldn't happen at work, " you really blew this project, how about a bonus" It just doesn't make sense.

First of all I think GM-D class, orders 1st, 2nd,and 3rd, should right off the bat get a free get in pass for the following year at the same match. That would be at least $125+ worth of value, maybe a free polo shirt (good for 2 things, the winners advertise the match, plus the winners get another shirt to shoot with), and thats not much to ask. As Bob stated earlier, the sponsers donated 67% of most of the prizes for advertisment placements in the shooters book, why not use that, it doesn't cost the MD any money except for the remaining 1/3. That make the match effictively worth thier time to make the match attractive for shooter to come, if not, its not worth the time and effort and mental exhaustion that comes with setting up a major match... if not no match, Right?. From thier I think the prizes should be by order of finish. Again rewarding the people in thier order of thier achievment.

Also if a MD decides to have a prize table, Have a good one. I went to one this year and it was really not what I expected, it had alot of non gun related items, tire gauges, basically look like they got a sponser from the local O'reileys.

I had a friend who finished 4 or 5th overall in a match this year, and worked his tail off before the match, and has been, and when his name was called 10th from the bottom at a bucket raffle, I think he ended up with a fountain pen(not really, but something equivelent)He just threw it away, he was so upset. I just don't think that was fair, by any means.

I think whatever we say is a mute point because major MD are going to do whatever they want or can do, the only thing you can do if you don't like the way the prizes are disbursed and you are in it for the prizes or money, than just don't go to the matches. Problem is, if the Top dogs like the matches were there are nice big fat juicy prizes for the top shooters, and its a bucket raffle,you may not see them at those matches. For me personally I like the experience of shooting with high GM's and being in that type of atmosphere. To me if there is not some sort of prestige of shooting with some of the top dogs, than we are spending $500+ for a glorified local match, with a lot more stages. Why not go to your local club real early and set up some real fancy stages and shoot for $25

Just my 2cents

PK

Edited August 6, 2007 by PAPER KILLER

[Jake Di Vita]

TL,

I can bet you just about every sponsored GM has been comped to shoot...If their sponsor sponsors the match...usually a free slot comes with it. So if you think the vast majority of big name GMs and even lesser known GMs (myself for example) think the world turns around us, you are horribly mistaken and I really don't appreciate you saying that just because some shooters are proficient enough and lucky enough to be sponsored. Jesus, if you feel that way strictly about match fees how do you feel about the ever sliming number of people who have all their shooting expenses paid for them.

[XRe]

I think that the lower class shooters are going to like the random drawing, The top shooters or the ones who are higher in finish at every match liking the order of finish for the prize table.

Realize, too, that some top shooters are going to matches where a good performance will net them something that helps offset their costs... Typically, higher skilled shooters are going to more big matches, involving more travel, etc. If they can't use what they get off the prize table, they'll sell it to recoup costs. If a match doesn't present them any way to recoup costs at all, they'll likely choose a different match to spend their time, effort, and cash to get to.

This includes "sponsored" shooters... for instance, Chris Tilley told me he spends a large chunk of change every year to get to matches, practice, etc, in addition to what he gets through sponsorships (I don't remember the figure, so I won't quote one - but it was above $20K, IIRC).

This is the only sport I know of that rewards mediocre performances.

Do you mean in cases where we have a raffle for the prize table, or in normal "by class placement" arrangements, or??? If the former - I don't think you can really call that "awarding performance". Rather, its "rewarding participation". They didn't get a prize for being DFL in the match, they just got a prize for showing up and paying the entry fee. If the latter, there are lots of sports that reward performances on a handicap/class basis - we're certainly not the only ones...

That wouldn't happen at work, " you really blew this project, how about a bonus" It just doesn't make sense.

That doesn't happen??? You obviously work in a utopia....

First of all I think GM-D class, orders 1st, 2nd,and 3rd, should right of the bat get a free get in pass for the following year at the same match.

On the surface, that doesn't sound like a bad idea - that's possibly a significant chunk of the entry fees, though, if you think about it... If each division had enough participants to get a prize, you're talking about 108 entries (6 divisions with 6 classes per, times 3 placements).

As Bob stated earlier, the sponsers donated 67% of most of the prizes for advertisment placements in the shooters book, why not use that, it doesn't cost the MD any money except for the remaining 1/3.

What do you mean? This isn't real clear... Use sponsor donated prizes for what, except for prize table fodder?

Also if a MD decides to have a prize table, Have a good one. I went to one this year and it was really not what I expected, it had alot of non gun related items, tire gauges, basically look like they got a sponser from the local O'reileys.

If you mean the match I think you mean, its a Harbor Freight sponsorship Ask the MD about the "whys" on that - basically, its a way to stretch the match budget to provide everyone with something, and it won't necessarily be something relatively non-useful, like, say... ShokBuffs... AustinMike got a nice motorcycle lift from that prize table, once... And, if you look at the rest of that prize table, its actually pretty nice and well done (I remember several guns and such, this year...) - just if you get up there later in the distribution, there's not a lot of "good stuff" left (like any other prize table....)

I had a friend who finished 4 or 5th overall in a match this year, and worked his tail off before the match, and has been, and when his name was called 10th from the bottom at a bucket raffle, I think he ended up with a fountain pen(not really, but something equivelent)He just threw it away, he was so upset. I just don't think that was fair, by any means.

Define "fair"??? If the match states upfront that its a bucket raffle prize table, then it was absolutely fair, and your friend should not have expected anything else (how can you "expect" things from a raffle???). If you mean its "not fair" because the match chose to do a raffle prize table instead of a order of finish prize table, he had the choice to shoot that match or not, based on the published prize distribution method. If the match changed prize distribution methods after registrations were sent in (as happened at one major match this year), then I wholeheartedly agree that it was extremely unfair, and I'd be super-frickin'-pissed, too...

I think whatever we say is a mute point because major MD are going to do whatever they want or can do, the only thing you can do if you don't like the way the prizes are disbursed and you are in it for the prizes or money, than just don't go to the matches.

+1. And, politely let the MD know why you're not coming. Otherwise, they don't know you're not there or why...

For me personally I like the experience of shooting with high GM's and being in that type of atmosphere.

Me too... totally. But, I suspect that for you and I, getting something off the prize table is not the primary reason for being at the match, is it?? But, I seek out the matches where there's going to be strong competition - next year, likely will be something like FL Open, Double Tap Champs, TX Open, A4, A6, Open Nats, maybe A2.... The TX Open is something of an unknown, but I suspect the advertised prizes will attract some top names ($1K to match winner in Limited and Open!) - but all of those matches bring in the top guns...

[XRe]

So if you think the vast majority of big name GMs and even lesser known GMs (myself for example) think the world turns around us, you are horribly mistaken and I really don't appreciate you saying that just because some shooters are proficient enough and lucky enough to be sponsored.

I think you misunderstand what shred and TL are getting at, Jake...

There's a practice in the IPSC world where certain shooters are courted by the various matches - it boils down to a "I won't come shoot your match unless you pay me to be there" - and sometimes to a "...unless you pay me more than this other match over here..." arrangement. This is not unlike the arrangement that Tiger Woods has - appearance fees, basically.

As far as this practice is concerned, frankly... I agree with TL. Let the shooting whores stay home. You want to shoot, come shoot. If you happen to shoot well enough to get a paycheck (through sponsorship, prizes, whatever), more power to you. But, when it comes down to "pay me, or I won't even show up to shoot your match, and neither will any of the people who show up to wherever I go".... screw that....

[Chuck Anderson]

I'm not sure which matches in the US are courting shooters in this manner. I think Shred mentioned European or non US matches. While I courted a lot of GM shooters for Area-1 last year it was done by working with their sponsors and they gave US stuff to have them there.

As far as cash prizes. They are a big draw on a matches expenses. Most sponsors don't want to give cash. Why would they. They offer a product, shooter gets a product or sees it on the prize table and wants to buy it. Win/Win for the sponsor. If they give cash what do they get back? The match either gives it away or buys some other product with it. Plus if the sponsor gives away $1000.00 of retail value product how much did it really cost them? We did over 100K last year and the huge majority was given in product (like 99%). Sponsors are willing to donate this product because they derive a benefit from it (and because our sponsors rock).

As far as Random table drawings reducing the amount stuff sold after the match, I haven't seen that. If it's a random, drew your name, take this "X" prize that we're drawing for, that dramatically increases sales after matches because you get whatever you're given. If it's a your name is drawn now come up and pick something, it ends up being a push. You still get folks who don't normally go to the table coming up and picking expensive stuff they can't use and selling it. Random tables like this also take a LOT longer to run. There is no established order to walk and everyone has to go as their name is called rather than being lined up already. Plus you normally only run one table instead of a table per division. Figure it takes two to three times longer to run a random pick table than it does to run an order of finish. I've seen them take 3-4 hours.

As far as going to a strict cash payback match I don't like the idea. It does away with using the sponsors. Essentially you're going to be taking the money from match fees. There will be no reduction in match fees. In fact probably an increase to cover these cash prizes. But even assuming that you could reduce a match fee by 50%. From 150 to 75. Who really cares. If someone is going to have to travel to a match and stay in a hotel how much of a savings is this. Gas (maybe aiplane tickets, maybe rental car), hotel, bullets, vacation time from work. The $75 savings is a pretty small portion fo that fee. I'd rather go to a match like Area 1 last year (sorry not sure how this year is going to work) where everyone is guaranteed at least $100.00 in prizes off the table. Even for finishing DFL.

[Sean Gaines]

xre:

Realize, too, that some top shooters are going to matches where a good performance will net them something that helps offset their costs... Typically, higher skilled shooters are going to more big matches, involving more travel, etc. If they can't use what they get off the prize table, they'll sell it to recoup costs. If a match doesn't present them any way to recoup costs at all, they'll likely choose a different match to spend their time, effort, and cash to get to.

This includes "sponsored" shooters... for instance, Chris Tilley told me he spends a large chunk of change every year to get to matches, practice, etc, in addition to what he gets through sponsorships (I don't remember the figure, so I won't quote one - but it was above $20K, IIRC).

Pk

Well I am not a top shooter and I goto matches to hopefully offset some of my cost if I win, don't you? If I can win a slide or a frame, thats going to offset a majority of my cost.

Pk:

That wouldn't happen at work, " you really blew this project, how about a bonus" It just doesn't make sense.

Xre:

That doesn't happen??? You obviously work in a utopia....

PK:

No, But I think you live in a fantasy world but if you blew a project at work you are not going to be rewarded, you may be lucky to keep your job. I agree, Awarding performance is a better word for it. 1st,2nd, 3rd should get rewarded in each class and division(if enough shooters) very nicely to recoupe costs.

Xre:

On the surface, that doesn't sound like a bad idea - that's possibly a significant chunk of the entry fees, though, if you think about it... If each division had enough participants to get a prize, you're talking about 108 entries (6 divisions with 6 classes per, times 3 placements)

PK:

Only given if thier is enough shooters in each class or division

Pk

As Bob stated earlier, the sponsers donated 67% of most of the prizes for advertisment placements in the shooters book, why not use that, it doesn't cost the MD any money except for the remaining 1/3.

Xre:

What do you mean? This isn't real clear... Use sponsor donated prizes for what, except for prize table fodder?

PK:

What else would you use it for? prizes given out at the prize table or to winners of classes.

xre:

Define "fair"??? If the match states upfront that its a bucket raffle prize table, then it was absolutely fair, and your friend should not have expected anything else (how can you "expect" things from a raffle???). If you mean its "not fair" because the match chose to do a raffle prize table instead of a order of finish prize table, he had the choice to shoot that match or not, based on the published prize distribution method. If the match changed prize distribution methods after registrations were sent in (as happened at one major match this year), then I wholeheartedly agree that it was extremely unfair, and I'd be super-frickin'-pissed, too...

Pk:

Of course it was clearly stated bucket raffle. like I have said throughout my post that you work your tail off, and spend money on brass, powder, bullets travel to do good in a match and get a little cracker jack toy. I am just saying the raffle system is horrible way of prize distribution. let me take that back it was fair, because it was stated, but its just not the right way to do it. jmo

Xre:

Me too... totally. But, I suspect that for you and I, getting something off the prize table is not the primary reason for being at the match, is it?? But, I seek out the matches where there's going to be strong competition - next year, likely will be something like FL Open, Double Tap Champs, TX Open, A4, A6, Open Nats, maybe A2.... The TX Open is something of an unknown, but I suspect the advertised prizes will attract some top names ($1K to match winner in Limited and Open!) - but all of those matches bring in the top guns...

Pk:

Not the primary reason, but one of the major reasons to attend. Just like all those matches you plan on attending, have some pretty good prize tables and good talent. for me to attend a major match it needs to have the following and in this order: Good Stages, top shooter, distance for travel (Not to far), good prize table.

Edited August 6, 2007 by PAPER KILLER

[tightloop]

TL,

I can bet you just about every sponsored GM has been comped to shoot...If their sponsor sponsors the match...usually a free slot comes with it. So if you think the vast majority of big name GMs and even lesser known GMs (myself for example) think the world turns around us, you are horribly mistaken and I really don't appreciate you saying that just because some shooters are proficient enough and lucky enough to be sponsored. Jesus, if you feel that way strictly about match fees how do you feel about the ever sliming number of people who have all their shooting expenses paid for them.

Jake:

do you think NFL players make too much money for what they do, do NLB players make too much money for what they do, do you think it is right for pro sport owners like Bud Adams ( Houston Oilers) to tell the city, either build me a new stadium or I will move the franchise...

don't get me wrong..I like Roger Clemens, but to see him not have to travel with the other players to away games and only play .5 or the season and get 22 million bucks is stupid...for Alex Rodriquez to get 252 million for playing a game is stupid, and for anyone to pay over 400 bucks to take their family to a Texans game is stupid...Why do the owners pay it...cause the players demanded it...how do they pay for it; with increased parking, concessions and ticket prices...who pays for that...YOU DO when you go to the games....Mantle and Mays both have said that they would have played for free if the owners had fed and clothed them...that is LOVE of the game....and a long way from what Clemens and ARod are making....I can see pro athletes making money and lots of it, but make it on a performance basis...they don't perform, NO big $$$...and if the general public is tired of all that stuff like I am, the only way to stop it is to stay away from the stadiums or pay per view sports...Same way car dealers get 35K for a pickup..cause the buying public will pay that much... STUPID TOO!!!

How does that relate to GM being comped to shoot? Well USPSA is not a for profit sport for any shooters...at least that is the way it was intended to be..if TGO or anyone else can wrangle Springfield to pay him huge $$ to shoot for them, great, but USPSA should draw the line and tell all shooters, we WILL NOT pay you one cent to come shoot...we will not comp your entry fee, or your room or your meals..now if their sponsor pays for those things great...but not the Body of the sport...Not fair to other shooters...and let me make this VERY CLEAR....NO ONE should be able to hold the Body of the sport hostage to the point of demanding an appearance fee to come to any match...That is what I meant by having the world turn around them....and it could get just like Pro sports, or buying a vehicle unless the Body of the sport and the regular shooters make their feelings known to everyone...

So....IF they MUST get $$ for showing up, have the sport comp their entry fee, their room and travel and meals...let the F**kers stay home....About as clear as I can say it...

[Thomas Moore]

I do like the idea of being bumped to the next level if you place 1st in your class at a level three match. I'm tired of competing against sandbaggers. If you're a GM in one division, then you should be a GM in all divisions and that goes for the rest of the classes.

Prize tables will always be a matter of opinion. All sides can be argued. Personally I would like to see donated prizes given to the match staff with cash payouts for the shooters. As for the distribution of said funds would be up to the MD or maybe a poll from the shooters before the match started.

Anyway you look at it, prize tables will be argued for years to come. But there needs to be a better way of bumping shooters aka sandbaggers to the next level.

[dirtypool40]

I am WAY behind the curve on this thread.

Here's my two Lincolns, from running and shooting matches, from an IDPA rookie through M over to USPSA and back up from new "B" all the way to GM.

There are only two ways to fairly distribute prizes:

Completely Random drawing.

By raw order of finish regardless of class.

Every thing else encourages sandbagging, and "Lewis" system is just dumb.

I used to hear stories when I started about "oooh I hope I don't move up until after Area X, I could win a gun as 1st D (C, B, A, whatever)." Granted the days of the overflowing prize table appear to be well behind us, but in my opinion, that attitude is shameful. Check ANY match scores and I bet you see a lot of 1st B's finishing up past 3rd A, etc etc etc. Prize / trophy hunting by sandbagging is not something to be proud of. And avoiding matches with classifiers is just another way to sand bag.

Our match attendance drops significantly right before the big matches, people so afraid of moving up they don't "trust" the month delay of a classifier effecting their %. That's weak.

Get in there and fight. Either it's all hee haw and just hand prizes / trips to the prize table, by random drawing, or it's a contest and you reward the higher finishers with sooner trips to the booty locker.

And for what it's worth, I did completely random drawing last time I ran a match, but was working on a way to ALSO reward high finishers. I gave away free shoots to next years for class wins, and all prizes by random drawing. I was thinking of moving to giving the guns away the next year by order of finish, and the rest by drawing with return free-shoots to class winners. Did I try to please EVERYONE or what?!?!?

[GentlemanJim]

Facts are facts...its all the lower class shooters that drive the sport...buying products guns and gear.

Sponsorship is only for marketing to new shooters and promoting products.

with out the rank and file shooter there would NO room for GM shooters to get ANY sponsors.

Its the regular guy that pays the fees and fills the ranks.

The top FEW percent get the lions share of booty as it is, fame glory and spocsorships.

If lower level shooters have NO chance of ever winning anything they may choose not to play.

For most of us..shooting is NOT a profession..its a sport and we foot ALL the cost, Be fair to ALL who participate.

Random drawings and the HOPE of winning something cool will draw more paying participants to the sport.

I have respect for the skill GM shooters have attained...but I also have deep respect for the enthusiasm of the D ,C , or B shooter ...who makes it ALL possible.

Jim

[dgsmith]

I agree with Brian and Jim, Payback should be based on class entrys. If B-class limited has 50 entrys they should get more than the GM with 5 entrys. Top 3 overall should get set amount then spread the wealth to the shooters who foot the bill.

Edited August 6, 2007 by dgsmith

[ong45]

We seem to wade through this morass every year or so huh?

Not the first time it's been said, where you stand on this free for all generally depends on where you sit in the food chain. Yeah i know a lot of you are truly altruistic

Reward people who perform and have spent years and lots of their own $$$ to claw their way to the top........

Reward the members who form the bulk of the membership without whom we would be nowhere?

Remember that GM's used to be C and D shooters too..... in the end you can't please all and worrying about everyone's self esteem is just chasing the dog's tail.

We had a discussion a while back about why area 1 GM attendance dropped off a number of years ago, i thought it coincided with the match becoming a trophy match at the time.

[Chuck Anderson]

So....IF they MUST get $$ for showing up, have the sport comp their entry fee, their room and travel and meals...let the F**kers stay home....About as clear as I can say it...

Do you have a single example of this happening in the US. Because frankly I don't appreciate the name calling if you're just making this up. Shred's example, if I'm reading it right, was based solely on IPSC, not USPSA. They have a completely different system for prize tables, they don't have them. It is clear what you're saying, what isn't clear is if there is any reason for you to say it.

[Jaxshooter]

If the sport wants to grow the prize table order of finish is a big negative for the average shooter. The mainstay member is a working class individual that shoots for recreation and to have fun. How long do you think takes the average shooter to see the same 10-20 people taking the best merchandise from the prize table at every match before they realize they can't compete at that level? This is not unique to our sport the NSSA and ATA have gone through the same problems. In skeet and trap there are extra cost events that the shooter can enter, but the main entry fee stays in the shooters class. For example you can enter the High Overall Event at a skeet shoot, That money is divided among the shooters who enter ( usually AAA ana AA shooters, Like our GM and M class). You could also have seperate pots for each stage winner take all etc.

I played golf professionally for 15 + years, we were paid in the order of finish, but we all competed on an equal playing field and we all played golf for a living. The USPSA is not a professional sport at this point in time and probably could never be due to the lack of mainstream popularity. Take away the B class and lower shooters along with the Seniors and Super Seniors and see how many sponsors will back it and what will be on the prize table then.

[XRe]

Well I am not a top shooter and I goto matches to hopefully offset some of my cost if I win, don't you?

No. I'm not a top shooter, either... I go to test myself against the best competition I can find. Getting something off the prize table - and whether or not it offsets my expenses - is ancillary to that. Winning against top talent is what motivates me.

If I can win a slide or a frame, thats going to offset a majority of my cost.

I won't argue that its nice to receive something that you can use that helps with future costs... No doubt. I've managed to get my entry fee back at the past two Open Nationals (in the form of C-More certificates), and it helps a bunch.

No, But I think you live in a fantasy world but if you blew a project at work you are not going to be rewarded, you may be lucky to keep your job.

I haven't blown any projects in my professional world, but the practice in the business world of rewarding failure really makes me want to (sometimes).... I mean, Dilbert exists for a reason I've seen it happen time after time - someone who produces a failing effort is given more people, more money, and a bigger project to try to tackle (and fail at). I've seen this phenomenon at many large and medium sized companies - small companies, not so much, because of the immediate effect on the bottom line. No fantasy world for me... and if you've never seen this, seriously, you're working in a utopia, dude (enjoy it!)....

Of course it was clearly stated bucket raffle. like I have said throughout my post that you work your tail off, and spend money on brass, powder, bullets travel to do good in a match and get a little cracker jack toy.

And my point back is - if you work your tail off to go to matches to get prizes, then why in the heck would you go to a match that distributes prizes via a bucket raffle? Its a non sequitur - it makes entirely no sense. If you're practicing and working hard to win stuff, and you go to a match that advertises itself as having a bucket raffle - and you win a ball point pen and get pissed off about... you're not a very smart cookie, are you?

ETA - by "win stuff", I mean to take things of value home from the prize table...

I am just saying the raffle system is horrible way of prize distribution. let me take that back it was fair, because it was stated, but its just not the right way to do it. jmo

Totally agree. I prefer an "order of performance" type of arrangement myself, as well, and for exactly the reasons you note. However, I don't let the prize distribution method keep me from attending a match that will have top talent present - the prize table is not my motivation for working hard or showing up at matches.

Edited August 6, 2007 by XRe