Dates for 2008 Nationals and Major Matches?

[Flexmoney]

I agree ..... or at least lets have a OPEN / LTD Nats at one venue and a PROD / L-10 / REVO Nats at another. That way the 10 round shooters have to decide what they like better, and so do the Race Gunners

That is the "Race Gun/Street Gun format(s) that we had a few yrs ago.

There are always pros and cons.

[Chris Keen]

Tulsa could park you way away & have those cute little girls in the golf carts drag a trailer full of shooters back & forth. Kind of like Disneyworld or something. Just keep the shuttle going.

If USSA could just get some asphalt in there, where we parked this year ..... I would'nt care if they parked me in Scooby-Doo 31. Just so long as the 'snapdragons' were shuttling us around

[Shooter Grrl]

I got some real issues with this thread. I've been doing this long enough to remember the match being announced about 3 months out!!!! (NOT KIDDING!) What we have now is a huge improvement. I also know that our current President has tried valiantly to get the dates set before the end of the year but for 8 years now has run into issues with one thing or another.

[davidball]

I agree that we should have a combined Nats and try for 500 plus shooters. Lengthen it out to 5 days if necessary. I also think it should be held at Tulsa, middle of US and airfare doesnt get too out of control for anyone. From one corner of the country to the other gets very expensive and almost doubles my airfare.

This increases hotel and restaurant costs and makes it more difficult for juniors (and teachers) if it is scheduled during the school year.

[mactiger]

I got some real issues with this thread. I've been doing this long enough to remember the match being announced about 3 months out!!!! (NOT KIDDING!) What we have now is a huge improvement. I also know that our current President has tried valiantly to get the dates set before the end of the year but for 8 years now has run into issues with one thing or another.

I'll call BS on that one.

Troy

[carinab]

I'll call BS on that one.

Troy

From you Troy! I'm shocked, simply shocked!

[Shooter Grrl]

I got some real issues with this thread. I've been doing this long enough to remember the match being announced about 3 months out!!!! (NOT KIDDING!) What we have now is a huge improvement. I also know that our current President has tried valiantly to get the dates set before the end of the year but for 8 years now has run into issues with one thing or another.

I'll call BS on that one.

Troy

Aw c'mon Troy - you remember 3 months notice for the nationals, I know you do

[Kingman]

I agree that we should have a combined Nats and try for 500 plus shooters. Lengthen it out to 5 days if necessary. I also think it should be held at Tulsa, middle of US and airfare doesnt get too out of control for anyone. From one corner of the country to the other gets very expensive and almost doubles my airfare.

This increases hotel and restaurant costs and makes it more difficult for juniors (and teachers) if it is scheduled during the school year.

True point. I want to be able to shoot nationals next year, but already I am seeing that it may not be likely. As long as I am a teacher where I am I might as well exclude the idea of nationals. Unless they are set far enough that I know its summer. Even in that case I need to make arangements since I work a year round schedule.

[Bwana Six-Gun]

Let me throw a little more gas on the fire. The evening of the Revolver Nationals awards, (Limited and Production are just minor inconveniences in the greater scheme of things ) I was outside taking a smoke break before the awards started and the owner/manager/major stockholder in USSA was out there talking with some other guys and said that the Nationals for next year were already going to be in Tulsa. It would be a back to back with two divisions going for three days and then the other three going for the next. Single Stack would remain in PASA to fulfill USPSA's contracdt with them. He may have been blowing smoke, but I don't think so.

FWIW, I hope that all the nationals will be in Tulsa next year, because as everyone has said, it is a first class facility that will only get better, it is centrally located, and it is a one day drive from my house.

[Carmoney]

I also know that our current President has tried valiantly to get the dates set before the end of the year but for 8 years now has run into issues with one thing or another.

Do, or do not. There is no try.

[mactiger]

I got some real issues with this thread. I've been doing this long enough to remember the match being announced about 3 months out!!!! (NOT KIDDING!) What we have now is a huge improvement. I also know that our current President has tried valiantly to get the dates set before the end of the year but for 8 years now has run into issues with one thing or another.

I'll call BS on that one.

Troy

Aw c'mon Troy - you remember 3 months notice for the nationals, I know you do

I'm not talking about the 3 month notice, although I do remember it. That's not the BS part.

Troy

Edited September 26, 2007 by mactiger

[mactiger]

Let me throw a little more gas on the fire. The evening of the Revolver Nationals awards, (Limited and Production are just minor inconveniences in the greater scheme of things ) I was outside taking a smoke break before the awards started and the owner/manager/major stockholder in USSA was out there talking with some other guys and said that the Nationals for next year were already going to be in Tulsa. It would be a back to back with two divisions going for three days and then the other three going for the next. Single Stack would remain in PASA to fulfill USPSA's contracdt with them. He may have been blowing smoke, but I don't think so.

FWIW, I hope that all the nationals will be in Tulsa next year, because as everyone has said, it is a first class facility that will only get better, it is centrally located, and it is a one day drive from my house.

I can believe that, although I bet it's not announced any time soon. If I'm wrong, so much the better...

I do know that we'll be having a National championship of some sort there for the foreseeable future.

While USSA has the potential for being a first class facility, it's not there yet, strictly speaking from a match production/operation standpoint. It wasn't ready for Nationals last year, but we dodged a bullet with the weather and the construction being limited to the "coliseum" bay they were building. It wasn't ready this year, either. Just having a bunch of bays does not make a venue--there has to be enough infrastructure to make all the other things work, like parking, running water, a place to store targets and equipment, a place to hold registration, properly draining and surfaced bays, and a plce to put the vendors/sponsors and the food tent that doesn't cramp one or the other. PASA has all that. USSA is working on it, but the construction has progressed to where it impinged on the parking to a great extent at this year's match, and the weather sort of proved the condition of the bays. I'm not criticizing USSA's place or efforts--they are doing what they need to do, and nothing happens overnight. I do think we were a little premature in putting Nationals there for the past two years, but the problems were relatively minor and can be addressed.

YMMV, of course, but if I'd had my choice, I'd have produced back to backs at PASA the last two years.

Missoula is a good facility, the range is so big, though, that parking became an issue. That too can be worked on. Personally, I'd love to see a multigun done there--they have the space and the bays for a huge match.

Troy

[ccur]

OK..flame away ...Lets talk issues and not people (ie..USPSA President)...I enjoy the Forums for the express reason that we don't do THAT!!

Rant off....

Cheryl

Edited September 26, 2007 by ccur

[driver8M3]

I also know that our current President has tried valiantly to get the dates set before the end of the year but for 8 years now has run into issues with one thing or another.

if this is true, it's a sad commentary on his tenure (related to this issue anyway). he's the president, and it's his job to get this done. i'm sure it's not as simple as tossing a dart at a calendar, but picking a date for the national championships doesn't really seem like rocket science either. plus, it seems like the earlier it gets done, the easier it is...on everyone, including him. perhaps he can drop in here and post the issues that he has run into year after year so we know why this is such a problem.

Edited September 26, 2007 by driver8M3

[Carmoney]

perhaps he can drop in here and post the issues that he has run into year after year so we know why this is such a problem.

Good luck on that.

The president of USPSA is paid an annual salary of $51,875.

Selecting an appropriate venue for Nationals, in a timely and objective manner, is one of the relatively few responsibilities of the office. And it's not being done.

[Flexmoney]

Folks, as Cheryl hinted...this forum is about the shooting. Any more talk about the Prez. and I'll have to shut it down.

Admin.

[Bucky]

And lets make it a combined Nationals, pick your division and go for it. Lets get more than 350 shooters, lets aim for at least 500, maybe even 750. That would easily knock about 30-40% off the slot price.

On the contrary, I'd like to see a Production only nationals. We've seen Open only, Limited only, even Single stack only and it's not yet a "real" division (yes, I know the why's behind that). We've already seen what one predominantly open shooter can do with a prod gun. IMO this would be the grandest of nationals.

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[Flexmoney]

Bucky brings up a great point.

Having seperate Nationals allows for maximum competition in the divisions. (Shooters don't have to choose.)

After all...we are an organization based on competition.

Having one big, combined Nationals would allow us to get the numbers up for the one match. Should that be a goal? I don't know. It does thin out the competition.

[Alan Meek]

But if you had a nationals that did not have a limit imposed, then the numbers in each division should increase and the competitivness would also increase.

[XRe]

But if you had a nationals that did not have a limit imposed, then the numbers in each division should increase and the competitivness would also increase.

More bodies does not equal an increase in competitiveness - at least, not for those of us who are looking for that at a "match winning" level. There's a finite number of folks who are capable of winning a National Championship. If those folks have to pick between many divisions, it does tend to water down the competition some. For instance, look at the field from the Limited Nationals this year. Some group of those guys in the top 16 would go to shoot either Open or Limited 10. At least one of the guys who shot Production this year would do the same.

As Flex said before, there are pros and cons to doing the Nationals that way.

There are various factors that can make booking locations in advance somewhat tough - perhaps chief amongst them is the membership's seeming aversion to PASA. The challenge is finding venues that are capable and willing to hold a Nationals - and the rumor is that those are few and far between, and some tend to be flakey. So, perhaps its not easy to do what's being asked for here and align that with a desire to avoid capable, willing venues... I think keeping the matches moving around is a good thing, in general - to be balanced with the ability to find venues to do so with. With the rise of USSA as a viable, capable facility, perhaps this will change in the future. I have to wonder at what point the membership will get bored with a yearly match in Tulsa, too, though

[Jim Norman]

One school of thought follows what Alan says. One big match, no limits or very high limits on numbers. THis SHOULD swell the attendence.

HOWEVER: There are a fair number of top shooters that can win a Nationals in ANY division they choose to shoot in. One large Nationals means taht we are not as likely to see the head to head competitions between teh top guys as we would if each division had its own National.

Which brings up School of THought #2. We have 6 divisions. Why are we not holding 6 seperate Nationals? Now the top shooters will have to show up and shoot Production and Open and Limited and Limited-10 and SS and Revo.

Which means we will have to take off 6 weeks of work and use up 6 weeks of our two week vacation and find 4x the number of ROs to staff the match

Which brings up School of THought #3. Run two combined Nationals with three Divisoins in each one, Run them Back to Back in the same week. Top shooters could shoot two different divisions, and though we will be unlikely to see total head to head competitions, a Factory vs Race split should provide a reasonable chance to see the top Full Capacity shooters shoot heads up and the top Reduced Capacity Shooters shoot heads Up.

In other words,

Open-Production-SS as one match and Limited-Limited-10-Revo as the other.

And then again I could be completely wrong here.

Jim

[Flexmoney]

But if you had a nationals that did not have a limit imposed, then the numbers in each division should increase and the competitivness would also increase.

I think we'll find that any limit imposed on the attendance of the Nationals is a matter of logistics.

Adding shooters means adding days...and all that needs to be added to go with that.

[Flexmoney]

And, it's not just the division of competition at the top. Everybody has to choose a division...at every level.

We are only scored against those in our own division.

[Alan Meek]

But if you had a nationals that did not have a limit imposed, then the numbers in each division should increase and the competitivness would also increase.

I think we'll find that any limit imposed on the attendance of the Nationals is a matter of logistics.

Adding shooters means adding days...and all that needs to be added to go with that.

Agreed,

There are pros and cons to any configuration for the Nationals.

[mjbine]

One school of thought follows what Alan says. One big match, no limits or very high limits on numbers. THis SHOULD swell the attendence.

HOWEVER: There are a fair number of top shooters that can win a Nationals in ANY division they choose to shoot in. One large Nationals means taht we are not as likely to see the head to head competitions between teh top guys as we would if each division had its own National.

Which brings up School of THought #2. We have 6 divisions. Why are we not holding 6 seperate Nationals? Now the top shooters will have to show up and shoot Production and Open and Limited and Limited-10 and SS and Revo.

Which means we will have to take off 6 weeks of work and use up 6 weeks of our two week vacation and find 4x the number of ROs to staff the match

Which brings up School of THought #3. Run two combined Nationals with three Divisoins in each one, Run them Back to Back in the same week. Top shooters could shoot two different divisions, and though we will be unlikely to see total head to head competitions, a Factory vs Race split should provide a reasonable chance to see the top Full Capacity shooters shoot heads up and the top Reduced Capacity Shooters shoot heads Up.

In other words,

Open-Production-SS as one match and Limited-Limited-10-Revo as the other.

And then again I could be completely wrong here.

Jim

Jim,

I am with you on this. Especially Number 3. How many vacations do alot of people get. I would bet most just get two weeks and would not be able to shoot all the National they wanted to shoot. Back to Back would at least give them a chance to shoot two of them.