knightkrawler00 Posted July 26, 2007 Share Posted July 26, 2007 I get to go and play a hostage taker on a bus for a SWAT team scenario this Saturday. One of the guys that I shoot with is a local cop and SWAT team member and he got me in. We will be using simunitions, so I get to shoot back. I'm not sure if this is going to be a negatiations and intelligence gathering deal with an entry at the end, or a few entries to see how well different options work. I know that I will get 15-20 hostages, so I will have some bargaining power, or at the least some good shields . I can't wait, this will be the first time I've got to play with simunitions. Hopefully I will be getting to do some more of this role playing in the future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SiG Lady Posted July 26, 2007 Share Posted July 26, 2007 Helluva great exercise! You're very lucky. Am jealous. Let us know what happens!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigDave Posted July 26, 2007 Share Posted July 26, 2007 Be absolutely ruthless. Stay level headed, but do everything, absolutely everything, to keep the other side on their toes and guessing. Our lives will one day depend on it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Keen Posted July 26, 2007 Share Posted July 26, 2007 That's so cool. I got to do the same about 3 years ago with a local combined agency SWAT training team, and I can tell you one thing. Wear LOTS of clothes. Long sleeve, hooded sweat-shirts are best. The more the better. Wear good gloves, blue jeans, and leather boots. THOSE LITTLE SUCKERS STING! And if they offer you the M-16 simunition rifle ..... pass. It's hard to aim with iron sighted rifles while wearing a helmet with a face shield. The MP-5 is the best, but I doubt they will let you use that (as a hostage taker). Go for the plain old Glock and you'll be fine. Most of all .... HAVE FUN and try to learn some stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XRe Posted July 26, 2007 Share Posted July 26, 2007 Way cool, Shawn... Represent!!! Someday, I hope to be of assistance to the good guys in this fashion, too... And maybe work my skills at the same time... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Boudrie Posted July 26, 2007 Share Posted July 26, 2007 Do you get to develop your own strategy and try to win, or are you given a script you have to follow? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dirtypool40 Posted July 26, 2007 Share Posted July 26, 2007 (edited) What are you so happy about?? You just volunteered to get shot.... a LOT!!! I aaaaalmost got to do it once a few years ago but schedule got in the way. I did get to do loads of simmunition scenarios in the acadamy and FLETC. What a blast. Adrenalin dump like nothing else. Edited July 26, 2007 by dirtypool40 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G-ManBart Posted July 26, 2007 Share Posted July 26, 2007 Very cool! Definitely wear something thick and with long sleeves....believe me, they'll leave a mark. Also, it's a very, very good idea to put a hand towel down the front of your pants! You don't want to take one in the pills A bus is pretty tight quarters, but that works both ways. Have fun and keep them on their toes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HI5-O Posted July 26, 2007 Share Posted July 26, 2007 What are you so happy about??You just volunteered to get shot.... a LOT!!! You will get shot, it does hurt, will leave marks even under a long sleeve shirt. Velocity is over 300fps and you are in a close quarter environment so shots will be up close Maybe they'll let you use some of their body armor and gloves There is a rule about not brutalizing the role players Have fun barry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
revchuck Posted July 26, 2007 Share Posted July 26, 2007 +100 to the above recommendations for protection. I can vouch for the fact that Code Eagle sims will draw blood...and that folks often aim for the gun in the other guy's hand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Keen Posted July 26, 2007 Share Posted July 26, 2007 I had lots of bruises and welts when I did it. Even with the long sleeves and extra padding. The thing that kida miffed me was after each scenario the Moderator / Trainer looked us all over for hits, and pointed out where we (the bad guys) were hit, and proclaimed them fatal wounds. Then he looked over the SWAT officers and exclaimed non-fatal hits! He declared that anything below the waist, or in the limbs (arms) was not life-threatening, and anything in the torso was saved by their bullet-proof vests So ......... where are we supposed to aim ??? THE HEAD ?!?!?! They were all wearing full face-masks anyways, but I will tell you it's no fun getting hit in the neck. We had one hostgae scenario where I was cornered inside this room. It was "supposed" to be a negotiation type scenario, but instead we were "entered" on with flash bang's and the whole nine yards. I starte out just emptying my Glock into the first few officers that came in the room, but how I ended up was on the floor curled up in a little ball just trying to deflect some of the 90~100 simunition rounds that 'felt' like were hitting me in the arms, back, head, neck, etc. You WILL get hit ALOT! And dont be surprised if you get hit in the hands quite a bit. Shooters naturally aim at the 'threat' and I dont know if it's instinctively or pychologically but that ends up being the gun. We all tend to look at the gun thats shooting back at us. I got hit real good in the wrist. The shot went right between the glove and my long sleeve. That left a mark for a month. It kida sucked being shot so much, and being the "under-dog" in the fight .............. BUT IT WAS A BLAST and Hell yeah I'd do it again! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryan W Posted July 26, 2007 Share Posted July 26, 2007 Having been a previous SWAT commander and on SWAT for 18 years let me just echo what Dirtypool said " You're gonna get shot a bunch" - lol Having said that, I hope it's a good experience for you and I'm sure those guys will appreciate your help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shred Posted July 26, 2007 Share Posted July 26, 2007 I've done it a couple times for local LE agencies. It's interesting, though you usually have to stick to the script and not go IPSC-Ninja on them (if you are too good, sometimes 'getting you' can take precedence over the scenario..) Shot some poor guy five times right in the side of the elbow with sims once.. yow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kz45 Posted July 26, 2007 Share Posted July 26, 2007 I shoot with some guys who have done that before, they said when the officers make the breach and use flash bangs, you are not allowed to fire upon them for about 2 seconds, to simulate the effects of a real flash bang, this makes you just a target. Hope its not like that for you, have fun and good luck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CenTX Posted July 27, 2007 Share Posted July 27, 2007 (edited) I was a guest instructor for some firearms training at a SWAT class at San Antonio Colleg some 25 years ago. Then for the tactical exercise I was one of the bad guys. We had picked a sargent in the class to be the hostage, he did not know that he had been picked. They sent him down to "tell us" the exercise was ready to start. No simunitions back then, but we used closed Ft. Sam Houston barracks and had military booby trap simulators and grenade simulators. Our IEDs took out a couple of the students. (taken out for purposes of the exercise, no students were physically harmed) (edited for clarification) It's fun, but be careful, sometimes tempers can flair if you make them look stupid and silly. Actually I thought the idea was to challenge them and not let them get away with doing stupid and silly things. Edited July 27, 2007 by CenTX Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jake Di Vita Posted July 27, 2007 Share Posted July 27, 2007 Man I would have too much fun doing that...I can be pretty cunning and ruthless when I want to me. If they really want a challenge I can think of 5 guys off the top of my head to be the hostage takers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pdoyle Posted July 27, 2007 Share Posted July 27, 2007 7 million canndlepower flash, 250 decibels, every sensory in your body going on overload...yeah 2 seconds is about right...I love flashbangs...if you get a chance right after it is all said and done, really try to concentrate on the small things that made it successful or not. You will be amazed at what you can recall and in what order. On the instructor note, please remember that you are a "training aid". Any one can diffuse any tactical team, but that it is a jihad, not training. There will be a time and place for validation of equipment and techniques. Progressive training ladders need to be followed...but have fun...it is a straight up adrenalin, wind tunnel, NASCAR, rush for 2-3 seconds. pat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G-ManBart Posted July 27, 2007 Share Posted July 27, 2007 Man I would have too much fun doing that...I can be pretty cunning and ruthless when I want to me. If they really want a challenge I can think of 5 guys off the top of my head to be the hostage takers. One of the training aids we use now is to show a couple of video clips of IPSC shooters in action. I recall one SWAT team member watching a clip of a guy running a stage and at one point knocks down five round plates stagered down the bay in probably less than two seconds. The SWAT guy said "he just took out an entire entry team with head shots"....yeah, something like that! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Boudrie Posted July 27, 2007 Share Posted July 27, 2007 Be certain you are satisfied with the procedures used to prevent live ammo in the training area. There was a the bus hostage rescue training exercise East Providence, RI back in 2001 where an officer tested the trigger pull on a loaded AR15 while lining the crosshairs up on the unit commander's head. Avoidable, tragic, and the identity of the triggerman was withheld and there was no prosecution (though I doubt he had much of a LE career after that). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dirtypool40 Posted July 27, 2007 Share Posted July 27, 2007 (edited) If they really want a challenge I can think of 5 guys off the top of my head to be the hostage takers. Man, I'm getting the rush just thinking about it!!! I'm in Jake, that leaves three. Can we get Cheely? Ooooh how about PaulW so we have a nice mix of open, Or Matt Mink. Who's the GLock G I see all the time on here? And there's the "other" Erics. Say What's Manny up to? Doesn't Tilley post on here sometimes? What about TT and TGO!!! Oh before I forget I insist on PDoyle? I'm pretty set on Pat. If Pat's not on our side, he might be the guy coming in the door, and.... well, I just don't want you guys to see me soil myself. 7 million canndlepower flash, 250 decibels, every sensory in your body going on overload...yeah 2 seconds is about right...I love flashbangs...if you get a chance right after it is all said and done, really try to concentrate on the small things that made it successful or not. You will be amazed at what you can recall and in what order. On the instructor note, please remember that you are a "training aid". Any one can diffuse any tactical team, but that it is a jihad, not training. There will be a time and place for validation of equipment and techniques. Progressive training ladders need to be followed...but have fun...it is a straight up adrenalin, wind tunnel, NASCAR, rush for 2-3 seconds.pat If Pat's on the other team, I'll just stay home and play legos. Edited July 27, 2007 by dirtypool40 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knightkrawler00 Posted July 27, 2007 Author Share Posted July 27, 2007 I'm not sure exactly how the day is going to go down. It could be a bunch of entries, or a drawn out negotiations. Either way, I'm looking forward to throwing them for a loop with every opportunity. Bought some new gloves last night, got the clothes, we'll have face masks and neck shields, I think I'm set. As far as safety goes, everyone is checked three times before going in to make sure that nobody has a live weapon or ammunition. No flashbangs and no beating up the role players. I'm thinking that I'll have to somehow stay clear of the rather large windows that run the whole length of the bus and make them come inside. There are two doors on the bus, but I can shut down the middle one mechanicaly from the inside, not sure about the front door. With 15 hostages, I can pretty much surround myself the entire time and make their job as difficult as possible. How about some ideas for demands? If I get to make some demands, it might as well be absurd. 100 ponds of jelly beans sorted by color, a swimming pool filled with blue jello, etc... I'm taking a camera, so hopefully I will have time for some pictures. I'll post them if I get any. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shred Posted July 27, 2007 Share Posted July 27, 2007 If they really want a challenge I can think of 5 guys off the top of my head to be the hostage takers. Man, I'm getting the rush just thinking about it!!! I'm in Jake, that leaves three. Can we get Cheely? Ooooh how about PaulW so we have a nice mix of open, Or Matt Mink. Who's the GLock G I see all the time on here? And there's the "other" Erics. Say What's Manny up to? Doesn't Tilley post on here sometimes? What about TT and TGO!!! Oh before I forget I insist on PDoyle? I'm pretty set on Pat. If Pat's not on our side, he might be the guy coming in the door, and.... well, I just don't want you guys to see me soil myself. The SWAT team may bring ringers as well.. Strader, Avery... and the military boys.. Max, Travis, Lee, Daniel.. Somebody call McBane! We got us a video here! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricW Posted July 27, 2007 Share Posted July 27, 2007 If you want to fake out the flash bang, one of the tricks is to pull a blanket over you when it goes off then engage at will... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XRe Posted July 27, 2007 Share Posted July 27, 2007 You start off under a blanket, you might as well stay there. Keep ya nice and toasty until they perforate your ass... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pdoyle Posted July 27, 2007 Share Posted July 27, 2007 the old blanket trick..by the time it gets pulled down, you should only see a flashhider and two steely brown eyes....man how many times have I seen the blanket trick...Too bad Simmunitions is only for LEO and Military..could really route some awesome courses of fire with that..best of luck and let us know how it rolls..pics of pain would be appreciated. pat p.s. no Eric...U the man. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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