Watched my first DQ

[Overhung]

Thanks shred.

It reminds me of the Area 4 Champs this year where our squad mate was DQ'ed early in the match. The SRO warned everyone that there was a high potential for DQ. He sat and watched that point. Not everyone was DQ'ed, but in the end, the course design or set up was not correct as there had to be an observer for that place. I would consider that a trap.

It is different if one runs by a target, mind breaks, and shoots backwards, spins the wrong way, and sweeps the crowd; they get the bus ticket (I like that phrase).

If during the walkthru some one has to mind me of a special place in the COF where there is potential, that whole crew is guilty of negligence. It is not about breaking the 180, it is about potentially sweeping the crowd with a hot weapon during the excitement of the stage. Guns go off at the wrong times in these situations. Some poor schmo is going to jail, and some other- the RO, SRO, and club hierarchy are getting their pants sued off. And Thomas, the assertions that "we told you so" won't hold water.

Being DQed is only part of the argument, being in the crowd and swept by a D class because there is an 179 degree target is quite another.

An extension of the logic should be that everyone should be hot at all times, because guns should not be carried unloaded. It is the responsibility of the shooter not to muzzle anyone and they should retain control of their gun at all times. But, I have to show clear- to eliminate a threat. Telling me to be careful in the John, or lunch line does not eliminate a threat; nor does telling me not to sweep the crowd when there is a 180.

[Shawn Knight]

Well I have caused some unrest with some members of my club. No matter how hard we try to keep from offending anyone it never turns out the way we hoped for. Sometimes I have to remember the internet isn't as anonymous as I would like. Doesn't matter now. I will have to work even harder to gain back some of the trust that I have now lost. I hope this is a lesson to all of those that would admonish people with no fear of repercussions. I have hurt some of my club's member's feelings to the point where the club president has been informed of my mishandling of this incident. I am again sorry to those I have hurt and will apologize in person as well at the next match I attend if allowed.

Shawn

Mods Close or delete this thread please.

Edited July 7, 2007 by theknightoflight

[Thomas H]

He sat and watched that point. Not everyone was DQ'ed, but in the end, the course design or set up was not correct as there had to be an observer for that place.

If during the walkthru some one has to mind me of a special place in the COF where there is potential, that whole crew is guilty of negligence. It is not about breaking the 180, it is about potentially sweeping the crowd with a hot weapon during the excitement of the stage. Guns go off at the wrong times in these situations. Some poor schmo is going to jail, and some other- the RO, SRO, and club hierarchy are getting their pants sued off. And Thomas, the assertions that "we told you so" won't hold water.

I agree with you and shred up to a point---where I agree is that telling someone to "watch the 180" does not magically change a 180 trap to "okay, now it's just fine." On the other hand, having a COF such that there is never any chance that a shooter has potential to make a mistake seems---difficult.

How's this for a distinction: in a given stage, a target is placed such that you don't have any choice but to try to take it near or at the 180. No matter what the safety officer, RO, match director, and your mom say, it is still a 180 trap.

Contrast this with a situation in which a target or fault line or wall is placed such that during movement or engaging, one of the obvious choices of movement/engagement would cause the shooter to come near/break the 180--and the RO/safety officer reminds the shooter to be careful at this point. Is this a 180 trap? I don't think so. It is freestyle, so the shooter has the choice of how they are going to manage the stage. Being reminded at that point to be careful of the 180 can help some people (particularly newbies) to remember to make safe choices regarding how they are going to handle the stage.

I was going to include specific examples, but then it occurred to me that you guys have much more experience at this than I do, so it was probably unnecessary.

I should also say that this sort of thing makes much more sense at the local level, as opposed to a major match. At the club level, with new shooters and not-so-new-but-maybe-clueless (me!) it seems to me that the occasional comment from the safety officer will help new and old shooters alike to keep safety in mind.

Note: I haven't been shooting USPSA for very long, so what do I know?

Thomas H.

Edited July 9, 2007 by Thomas H

[STIshooter]

The important factor to recall in this situation is the first available shot on each target was well away from the 180 (in the ball park of 150 or 160).

The shooter overran the target presentation and turned back to break the 180.

The speed of the shooters movement was the cause....not the course design.

Any time you believe there is a safety issue, the only way to protect your friends is to raise the issue immediately with the match director or safety officer before the course is shot. Raising the flag after the match is akin to closing the barn door after the horse is out.

As for trust among your fellow shooters (friends), talking with them before going national is likely the best course....once you've got the full scoop locally, then consider this forum.

I doubt you'll be shut out at your club....but it sounds like a humble return may be in order.

Shoot straight,

STI Shooter

[sturmruger]

I personally don't think there is such thing as a "180 trap" stage. Every shooter out there can shoot a stage safely it just comes down to how fast they feel like going and what their tolerance is for being close to the 180.

[Shawn Knight]

May be "180 trap" wasn't the best term. Probably could have said 180 nightmare? Especially using a rifle. Oh well I guess I will be the whipping boy for a few months. A year from now they will have stories about that time Shawn made himself look like an ass on the internet! Wouldn't be the first time and most likely won't be the last.

[stingerjg]

May be "180 trap" wasn't the best term. Probably could have said 180 nightmare?

I dont think that is the right term either. There are alot of freestyle stages that there are possibilities to shoot past 180. With experience you learn not to go past the 180 to engage targets.

[Shawn Knight]

May be "180 trap" wasn't the best term. Probably could have said 180 nightmare?

I dont think that is the right term either. There are alot of freestyle stages that there are possibilities to shoot past 180. With experience you learn not to go past the 180 to engage targets.

Sorry again. I have led a closed existence in Alaska. It's nice to shoot in an outdoor setting.

I am just going to shut up and pay attention from now on!

[TerryBegley]

May be "180 trap" wasn't the best term. Probably could have said 180 nightmare? Especially using a rifle. Oh well I guess I will be the whipping boy for a few months. A year from now they will have stories about that time Shawn made himself look like an ass on the internet! Wouldn't be the first time and most likely won't be the last.

Whipping boy? Nah. A "reminder" at the annual banquet? A good possibility!

[Shawn Knight]

May be "180 trap" wasn't the best term. Probably could have said 180 nightmare? Especially using a rifle. Oh well I guess I will be the whipping boy for a few months. A year from now they will have stories about that time Shawn made himself look like an ass on the internet! Wouldn't be the first time and most likely won't be the last.

Whipping boy? Nah. A "reminder" at the annual banquet? A good possibility!

That will work!! Embarrassing video and pictures are fine too!

[uscbigdawg]

Post deleted for a friend (FWIW, I was nice).

Rich

Edited August 10, 2007 by uscbigdawg

[Matt Griffin]

Keep in mind that most of the "safe" stages are actually 180 traps for lefties, FWIW. I'd say 80-90% of doors open against us, and a lot of diagonal-movement stages are complete traps. Not to mention that 80% of forced-start side-to-side stages go against our reloads. I'm not saying it's unfair, necessarily, but it should be considered.

H.

[Johann the Horrible]

Went to a Provincial shoot at a neighboring Province a wile ago. I had a problem with what I perceived to be a 180 trap. I was shouted down by the other competitors and decided to rather leave and drive the 300km (about 190 miles) back home. As I had some guys that drove through with me I stupidly allowed myself to be convinced to stay and shoot. While waiting my turn at the stage with the 180 trap I took my Safety glasses off to wipe my face. (It was cooking hot). Before I could get the glasses back on I was hit between the eyes by a ricochet. I ended up spending the weekend in Hospital in a strange city. I also made page two in the local Sunday paper with the paper gong to town about guns and safety - as a "top" shooter could get hurt during a "National" shoot. After being discharged I had to driven home in my own car with my wife following behind in her car. I`m afraid this soured her to shooting. Have to say I looked a mess with two black eyes and several stiches to the bridge of my nose.

Johann the Horrible

[mmm3]

At Area 2 match this year there were 4 or 5 dq's--all on the same stage. The shooter runs around a hard cover wall that is set about 190 degrees. Once behind the wall, it was easy for the shooter to lose track of where the 180 is. A target was placed against the hard cover so you had to shoot it from up close or break the 180. I didn't dq, but one of the guys in my squad did. I think this stage was a set-up for failure.

[konkapot]

Which A2 stage? I didn't realize all the DQs were from the same stage!

FY42385

[Flexmoney]

Yeah, I'm not recalling any 180 traps at A2. The only thing I can possibly think of is the stage where you started by dropping the amulet (or whatever it was) in the barrel at the start?

[michaels]

Yeah, I'm not recalling any 180 traps at A2. The only thing I can possibly think of is the stage where you started by dropping the amulet (or whatever it was) in the barrel at the start?

Flex, it was the one with the picture of Paris Hilto at the start, down at the end where the barrels hid the targets is the spot that got a couple of folks, I know one of the dq'd shooters. He's a southpaw and saw the target over his right shoulder and broke 180 going for it. They had a small meeting about it and moved the target uprange but the dq still was in place.

michaels

[D-Man]

The competitor must be responsible not to break the 180 if not we will all be shooting from one box.

Very true but a stage that intentionally comes very close to the 180 seems a little on the unsafe side.

It not only seems a little unsafe, it's also setting people up for failure. (I know I'll get the phone book thrown at me for this...but...) Why would we want to intentionally set people up for a trap situation anyway?

Yes, I know attention to detail.

Yes, I know critical thinking challenges.

Yes, I know stituational awareness.

But still, why would we want to set them up for failure?

[SV_shooter]

Why would we set up stages that could inherently harm or kill someone? As a lefty, I am constantly slowed to think how to engage the COF w/o breaking 180. it is so unatural not to sweep the "right direction". I definately consider them 180 traps, but thats the game, and even though I may disagree with a few course designs, it doesn't stop my crippled lefty a$$ from wanting to play the game correctly and responsibly.

[Gary Johnson]

Illegal stage.

2.1.4 Target Locations – When a course is constructed to include target locations other than immediately downrange, organizers and officials must protect or restrict surrounding areas to which competitors, officials or spectators have access. Each competitor must be allowed to solve the competitive problem in his own way and must not be hindered by being forced to act in any manner which might cause unsafe action. Targets must be arranged so that shooting at them on an “as and when visible” basis will not cause competitors to breach safe angles of fire.

They could have saved it by placing additional no-shoots so the shoot targets would only be visible from uprange of the 180.

[jostein jensen]

May be "180 trap" wasn't the best term. Probably could have said 180 nightmare?

I dont think that is the right term either. There are alot of freestyle stages that there are possibilities to shoot past 180. With experience you learn not to go past the 180 to engage targets.

Thats terrible terrible stage design/building and the responsible RO's need some serious spanking!

I don't know the USPSA rule book, but the IPSC one doesn't allow that. If you can see it you can shoot it, thus the scoring side of ANY target shall not be seen from the "wrong" side of the 180. Place the target differently, cover it from that angle or bloody remove it.

On the other hand, I have no problem with targets being close (say 75-80 degrees out as long as there are no spectators or others at 91. I've shoot several stages with close targets, but the spectators weren't on that side of the stage to see, so its not unsafe, just a tad more difficult to do fast.

[Shawn Knight]

May be "180 trap" wasn't the best term. Probably could have said 180 nightmare?

I dont think that is the right term either. There are alot of freestyle stages that there are possibilities to shoot past 180. With experience you learn not to go past the 180 to engage targets.

Thats terrible terrible stage design/building and the responsible RO's need some serious spanking!

I don't know the USPSA rule book, but the IPSC one doesn't allow that. If you can see it you can shoot it, thus the scoring side of ANY target shall not be seen from the "wrong" side of the 180. Place the target differently, cover it from that angle or bloody remove it.

On the other hand, I have no problem with targets being close (say 75-80 degrees out as long as there are no spectators or others at 91. I've shoot several stages with close targets, but the spectators weren't on that side of the stage to see, so its not unsafe, just a tad more difficult to do fast.

This was my personal experience and I have grown much more as a shooter. I grew up in this sport at an indoor range where shooting to the very obtuse angles that I have grown to love and have made me a much better shooter, were not allowed. I have not been able to thank the guys I shoot with enough for their expertise as well as their advice on these types of stages. Many stages that were much worse than this have come and gone and I was very impressed at how we all did on those stages. This incident serves as a lesson in paying attention for me as well as others.

Now that I look back on this stage I see that it was, in reality, no where near the 180 and no where near as difficult as I originally thought. Since this match I have shot many more stage(some of my own design) that were much closer to the 180 than this one was. I don't see why we need to beat the horse any more boys...

It's dead.

Edited February 11, 2008 by theknightoflight