Pleading to a lessor charge

[Brazos SC Shooter]

I have to return to NY this week to handle my gun related issues. The DA has refused to dismiss the charges all together, but is willing to accept a guilty plea to Disorderly Conduct, which is a violation (like a speeding ticket) and not a criminal offense, a $250 fine and I could be done with it. And oh BTW, you will never see your gun again.

It just sucks that I even have to admit guilt of any kind. It doesn't show up on my criminal record as a conviction but it will show that I was arrested for 1 yr from the date of dismissal.

[bgary]

Unless NYC does something weird, "pleading guilty" equals a conviction. It likely *will* show up on your record.

ymmv

B

[Micah]

Unless NYC does something weird, "pleading guilty" equals a conviction. It likely *will* show up on your record.

ymmv

B

+1. I assume the deal isn't good with a "No Contest" plea?

[Brazos SC Shooter]

Unless NYC does something weird, "pleading guilty" equals a conviction. It likely *will* show up on your record.

ymmv

B

+1. I assume the deal isn't good with a "No Contest" plea?

The deal is to plead to Disorderly Conduct vs. Criminal Possesion of a firearm, which is a Class A Misdemeanor.

Disorderly Conduct = violation and NOT a criminal offense, but the arrest will show up should I ever be finger printed but there would be no criminal conviction.

Class A Mis = criminal offense

[bgary]

Yeah, but... just to be clear, you'll be "convicted of a lesser charge".

It will show up on your record as a conviction, just not as a criminal charge.

Not a lot different than a traffic ticket... it is not a criminal offense, but when you sign the form and pay the fine, you are "being convicted" of that traffic offense, and the conviction becomes part of your "record".

In your case, the arrest will be on your record, and the "disposition" of that arrest will be a guilty plea on a lesser charge, *not* a dismissal.

$.02

Bruce

(Not a lawyer... but slept in a Holiday Inn Express a few times)

[straightshooter1]

I saw the original thread on this, not sure I really understood all the facts, and, even if I did, I am a Florida lawyer (prosecutor), not admitted in NY. BUT-before you do this, please talk to someone who is a NY lawyer. There may be a better deal available or not, but, if you don't check....

If you already have a lawyer, then, disregard this post. It's just that I have seen so many folks plead and then learn they didn't need to later. Of course, later is too late.

Bob

Edited May 14, 2007 by straightshooter1

[JThompson]

Actually the way I read it it will not remain on his record. It's like smoking in a public place or speeding. It will not be on his record forever.

[Brazos SC Shooter]

In your case, the arrest will be on your record, and the "disposition" of that arrest will be a guilty plea on a lesser charge, *not* a dismissal.

Yes you are correct. It is not a dismissal. The arrest would show for a year.

If you already have a lawyer, then, disregard this post. It's just that I have seen so many folks plead and then learn they didn't need to later. Of course, later is too late.

Thanks Bob. I do in fact have a NY attorney. The reason the DA will not dismiss the case because the fact is, whether I knew it was against the law or not, I broke the law. I was in possesion of a firearm in the state of NY without a permit. It is because of my prior record, or lack there of, they are offering a plea bargin down to Disorderly conduct.

Actually the way I read it it will not remain on his record. It's like smoking in a public place or speeding. It will not be on his record forever.

I am being told the arrest is the only thing that will show for the period of one year and since Disorderly conduct is not a crime it will not show. I am a little confused since moving violations show up on a driving record and criminal activity shows on a criminal record; where exactly does this go?

In NY Disorderly conduct is

fighting

using vulgar language in public

disturbs any lawful meeting or assembly

obstructs vehicular or pedestrian traffic

public intoxication

continued loitering after being asked to disperse by law enforcement

[CSEMARTIN]

I am very intrigued by this thread. I don't know the details of what happened, but I'm wondering if the following applies.

From page 169 of the NRA Guide to the Basics of Personal Protection in the Home, 1st edition.

The 1968 McClure-Volkmer Gun Owner's Protection Act exempts firearms owners who are transporting their arms interstate from the laws of such jurisdiction (as long as the gun owner is merely passing through the jurisdiction). The firearm should be locked in an inaccessible part of the vehicle. Although the federal Gun Owner's Protection Act overrides state and local law, in practice a gun owner may still be harassed or arrested by overzealous local law enforcement officials who don't know about the federal law.

[bgary]

It's in the details.

The FOPA basically says "if you're going from someplace you're allowed to legally possess it, to someplace else you're allowed to legally possess it, and it is locked up while in transit, you're [somewhat] immune from local laws en-route."

The problem is (correct me if I'm wrong), he was going from NYC (actually, he was declaring it in his baggage while trying to fly *out* of NY), and he did not have the right to legally possess it in NYC. NYC has an almost total ban on handgun possession... so, pretty much just being in possession of it was problematic.

Bruce

[CSEMARTIN]

This thread has me a little freaked out.

Three months ago, six of my friends and I drove through New York on our way to the S&W Winter Championship with an arsenal of firearms and ammunition. What would have happened if we were stopped by the police? I'm pretty sure the driver of our vehicle may have been speeding.

Edited May 15, 2007 by CSEMARTIN

[JThompson]

This thread has me a little freaked out.

Three months ago, six of my friends and I drove through New York on our way to the S&W Winter Championship with an arsenal of firearms and ammunition. What would have happened if we were stopped by the police? I'm pretty sure the driver of our vehicle may have been speeding.

Don't speed!

[bgary]

What would have happened if we were stopped by the police?

*If* you were in compliance with FOPA and the laws of New York State, you *should* have been fine (other than that pesky speeding thing).

of course, the key words in the above are "if" and "should".... it's not uncommon for you (the law-abiding gun-owner) to know more about FOPA than the officer who pulls you over. If that occurs... or if the officer doesn't like your attitude, or doesn't like gun-owners, or doesn't like any of a bazillion other possible things, it can get "complicated" in a hurry.

The side of the road is a crappy place to try to "prove you're right"... so the best option is to not find yourself at the side of the road.

[XRe]

There's another thread Texas HK shooter posted w/ all the gory details. I'm sure he doesn't want to recount that tale again....

Suffice it to say, FOPA did not apply in his case...

Just glad they decided not to nail you to the wall, man...

[GentlemanJim]

So sorry about all this mess

NEW YORK SUCKS!!!!!!!

Jim

[CSEMARTIN]

NEW YORK SUCKS!!!!!!!

That pretty much sums it up.

[chuckbradley]

I had a similar experience although in my case I was attending a match but the match letterhead/invitation didnt have a date on it. The port authority cop at JFK didnt even know the law. I had a copy with me along with the match letter. He said he didnt care about that. he was going to take us downtown and let the lawyers work it out. I continued to be nice and respectful and he finally said he had a good feeling about us(my brother and I) and let us go. Ironically he gave us our guns past the checkpoint which we refused to take possession of and requested the airline personnel carry the bags. This was 95 or 96 when Area 7 was on Long Island.

I am not a lawyer and dont know legal history but has there been cases brought through the system where the defense was the 2nd amendment. I was always under the impression this is something the supreme court has refused to hear and both have been scared to push since they both were afraid of the possible outcome. Can anybody give us a legal history lesson?

I would really hate to plead guilty to anything that I wasnt guilty of so I know how Texas feels. My son had a similar situation although not as serious. I let it up to him and he/we decided to fight the charge for disorderly conduct made by the school officer for fighting. He was defending himself from a bully. I would really like to see that match up today now that he is 6'1" and 200lbs of muscle. When the judge knew we were serious about fighting it she dropped the charges knowing that even though it was against school policy to defend yourself it wasnt illegal to do so even on school property. That case changed how these situations were handled in our county. I know Texas has allot more at stake here but I am surprised one of the progun groups does not jump in and try to push these cases if the defendant agrees.

Is there any legal ground to stand on if you were to fight it? Like the 2nd amendment.

[carinab]

One last little thing....I hope that what ever offense you were found "guilty" of in New York has a max sentence of less than a year on the books. Regardless of what the other state categorizes the crime as, the state of Texas considers any crime with a punishment of one year or greater as a felony...even if the other state calls it a misdemeanor. This means that if you ever move back to texas and want a carry permit, you could be denied.

[racerba]

HK Texas did mention (in the other thread) that NY had a 24 hour transit law (or something like that). So if you were caught with the guns and ammo, you "should" be OK as you were driving to the match and then leaving. Unfortunately, Texas was in NY for longer than 24 hours. Had he told the agent at the counter that he was coming from PA, he might have been OK.

Good luck, HK Texas.

Edited May 15, 2007 by racerba

[folsoml]

NYC has an almost total ban on handgun possession

This explains the low crime rate in NYC.

[chuckbradley]

HK Texas did mention (in the other thread) that NY had a 24 hour transit law (or something like that). So if you were caught with the guns and ammo, you "should" be OK as you were driving to the match and then leaving. Unfortunately, Texas was in NY for longer than 24 hours. Had he told the agent at the counter that he was coming from PA, he might have been OK.

Good luck, HK Texas.

The match law used to be 72 hours before & after and the transit law is federal I believe. But if they wont acknowledge the 2nd amendment than whats to say they wont ignore that law either.

[Rob Boudrie]

Your both wrong The window is 48 hours before, or after, any match approved by or under the auspices of the NRA or IMHSA, and this has been unchanged for many years. See NY penal code 265.20(13).

The NRA competitions division routinely grants formal recognition to USPSA Matches in NY and all club presidents and SC's have been advised of this. I do know that the Sectional in Rochester already has this approval, and has posted a PDF of the NRA form on their site.

If things go south in NY it is very important that you know what to say. If you are passing through, try to get your statement that your are in the midst of a continuous and uninterrupted trip on the record. If you are going to a match, be sure to have the match confirmation letter and a copy of NY 265.20(13) with the gun. If you ask politely you *might* have a chance that the officer or shift commander will be willing to look up 265.20 in their law book - far greater than you will by telling them there "you know there is an exemption" and asking them to read throught the several dozen pages in the book covering NY gun law to find it. In either case, you should be in a much stronger position to assert either an FOPA86 or 265.20(13) defense if you have a contemporanous statement on record rather than raising it as an afterthought.

If the match letter is not sufficiently specific (does not mention your name, shoot date, match date, match location, etc.) complain to the match director or registration staff. They will almost certainly be glad to help.

And remember, NY has a restatement of the federal AW ban (pre 1994 stuff is ok) so you can be in a heap o trouble if you have followed all procedures but have a few LEO marked Glock mags in your bag.

[Brazos SC Shooter]

Here are the details if you are interested. NYC

The original charge was a Class Misdemeanor with a max sentence of 1 year. The Disorderly Conduct charge which has a max sentence of 15 days and/or $500 fine and is not a "crime".

Based on the cost to this point and because the plea bargin isn't going to impact me in any way with respect to my shooting, gun ownership, potential future employability etc. I will likely not fight it.

[Rob Boudrie]

Thanks Bob. I do in fact have a NY attorney. The reason the DA will not dismiss the case because the fact is, whether I knew it was against the law or not, I broke the law. I was in possesion of a firearm in the state of NY without a permit. It is because of my prior record, or lack there of, they are offering a plea bargin down to Disorderly conduct.

The NY end has been convered. The MA end is covered by MGL 140s131F, which is similar to NY except that it specifically requires a gun permit from and state, district or territory that does not issue to drug users or felons (whereas the NY law states that such a permit is considered evidence you are a non-felon), and MA has no specific NRA affiliation requirement. Of those officers that know about 141s131F, over half that I have asked did not realize there was a "some permit" requirement.

MA has a restatement of the federal ban that is similar to the one in NY (ie, pre 1994 high caps OK).

The best approach to both states is to get lost in a crowd of one.

[bountyhunter]

NYC has an almost total ban on handgun possession

This explains the low crime rate in NYC.

Yeah......

That absolute gun control thing is working out just great for them...... I mean, the criminals are so frustrated with not being able to find street guns they are all just packing up and leaving town.