What Is Wrong With Production?

[Flexmoney]

I don't know why some of y'all are so resistant to something added if there's people that want to shoot it.

I can tell you.

The reason is that it kills the divisions. It becomes something other than competition.

And, there is certainly a place for getting together and shooting a bunch of stuff for the fun of it with buddies. But, USPSA...USPSA needs to be about the competition first and foremost.

I don't want growth if it means we also lose out of the competitive aspects of the game. Because...we don't get that anywhere else...in as big of a dose...as we do in USPSA.

I have seen other matches got to pot...competition-wise...by adopting the "lets give them all the divisions that they want" attitude. It's still fun to shoot at those places (sorta), but it is more social than performance driven.

I love the very concept of competition...in all aspects of life...and society. It brings out the best of what works. Then, it improves upon what works...sometimes throwing it out for something better...and surpasses the old standard. Always cycling upward.

[Chuck Merriam]

I must admit it would be nice to use my production gun with more bullets like my Limited gun.....but then why not just shoot my limited gun? Of course if the laws don't regress to Clintonesque times we could put a cap of 15 rounds on production to make it current with most 40's and 9's out there now. And while we are brain storming here....how about raising the floor for minor about 5PF to get the bunny fart loads a little closer to those who don't reload...just to level the field a little more. I personally don't think any of these things would hurt production, just make it better and more current. We just don't want to scare off the people who don't have the money (or want to use it to play more or travel) and don't want to play the equipment game. And I for one, can see many new shooters starting in production. I think it would be alot less confusing and more fun to let them have 15 rnds in the gun. We have all seen or can remember ourselves running our guns dry at our first few matches. Plus they would have to buy fewer mags to get started.

[boo radley]

I don't understand why some of y'all are so determined to f*ck with Production, which has been a growing and very popular Division by any standards.

I don't know why some of y'all are so resistant to something added if there's people that want to shoot it. Sure production is growing. It grew by one when I temporarily gave up Single Stack to start working on a classification. It's a good division and will grow whether there's a similar division for 'load what you can" or not. Nobody's messing with the division you want. Why should it bother you if they want something else?

You don't like the perceived attack on Production, fine. Call it Minor Limited. The point is not in the name. The point is in that there are people that would like to compete with more rounds in the mag with a production gun. There may be enough to make it worth while to add a division, perhaps not. The only way to find out is to keep communications open by inviting such comments rather than jumping on then, and, if there appears to be enough interest, to give it a try.

Lee

OK, let me try again, with a bit less vitriol, and Craiger45, I apologize for implying you were trolling.

Lee, here's my point, and obviously IMO, eh? I'm not an MD, or AD....just a shooter who's been at this for 2 years, and trying to spread the gospel, and get new shooters into the sport.

So I'd argue: there are *four* Divisions, currently, that support the same general piece of equipment -- a semi-automatic, iron-sighted pistol. Unlike Open and Revolver, you really start getting in nuances describing equipment differences with the rest of the Divisions.

Try explaining them to a non-shooter, and see.

I think the bases are pretty well covered, and it's nice that, if you look at big matches over the years (and somewhere I've got a post in the forums that actually tracks this), there's a pretty amazing increase in one Division -- Production.

Why bleed the patient?

If you create a "provisional" new Production Division, and turn the current Production into "Production-10", do you truly think you'll attract brand-new USPSA members? Or will you merely strip off a couple veterans here, and there, and create another anaemic Division? And what data suggests there's a demand for this change?

I think USPSA should 1.) make sure current Divisions are healthy and enjoy wide-spread participation, and 2.) attract new members, and -- a distant 3rd -- create new Divisions only if it's not at the expense of "1."

[Loves2Shoot]

I don't know why some of y'all are so resistant to something added if there's people that want to shoot it.

I can tell you.

The reason is that it kills the divisions. It becomes something other than competition.

And, there is certainly a place for getting together and shooting a bunch of stuff for the fun of it with buddies. But, USPSA...USPSA needs to be about the competition first and foremost.

I don't want growth if it means we also lose out of the competitive aspects of the game. Because...we don't get that anywhere else...in as big of a dose...as we do in USPSA.

I have seen other matches got to pot...competition-wise...by adopting the "lets give them all the divisions that they want" attitude. It's still fun to shoot at those places (sorta), but it is more social than performance driven.

I love the very concept of competition...in all aspects of life...and society. It brings out the best of what works. Then, it improves upon what works...sometimes throwing it out for something better...and surpasses the old standard. Always cycling upward.

My thoughts exacty, and of course much better stated.

For me, USPSA is about getting better and sharing.

Nik,

I don't disagree that you are doing what you think is best for your area, I've just seen it work diffferent in areas I've shot and personally believe performance should be awarded be overall achievement. If it works for you guys, that is great.

I think the reason Production is big in Portland is that Lawman is an excellent shooter and so folks would want to measure themselves against him. I would if I lived there.

[Nik Habicht]

Nik,

I (edit) personally believe performance should be awarded be overall achievement.

Scott,

I don't disagree with that principle ---- I certainly don't compete for first B Production, so that I can get my entry fee returned. I'd be fine with top down, or no cash prizes, but this structure appears to be what the section decided the shooters wanted a long time ago.....

I do get a kick out of the reaction of relatively new shooters when handing over a check for their first class win. I seem to also remember that once upon a time we had a plaque option, instead of cash payback, but that pretty much died out due to lack of demand.....

[HuskySig]

Craigar,

Check out some of the results from a few of the other clubs in the section. You will see that at Renton Production had the most shooters in February and March and was only a few shooters away from having the most in April. Nearly the same numbers can be seen at Puyallup from February to April, January's results are skewed because a lot of the regular shooters are still bundled up inside! Marysville follows with what you've experienced at Shelton, lots of Limited shooters.

Looking at the results from Shelton is rather odd, the matches are considerably smaller than Puyallup, Renton, and Marysville. It's hard for Seattle, Bellevue area guys to get over there. If you want to play in a more Production populated game, you need to cross the Sound!

mattk

[RobMoore]

I don't see the logic behind wanting a "load to capacity" production division, unless you're looking for an advantage because your particular wiz-bang 9mm can hold 28 rounds and everyone else you know will probably be stuck with 18-25.

If everyone in production has 10, whats the problem? I've got a 32 inch waist and I can find enough room for 4 spares.

[Chriss Grube]

The logic is that some people find it a disgrace to take a perfectly good full cap mag and bastardize it down to 10 rounds on some PC BS. This is America where we want bigger, faster, more horsepower and more rounds. This game was designed to find out what the best gear was, now we have everyone wants level playing fields, every thing fair and if I own a gun I want to be able to shoot it even if it is not competitive so damn it you better make the rules so it can be. We will either end up with limits and not stick to our founding purpose like the 10 round crap or we end up like a bunch of soccer moms where we all get a trophy because we each have our own division....then why bother even keeping score. God knows we want to hand out prizes to all the new guys to keep them coming back and we sure don't want to see anyone get there little ego hurt becasue they didn't win...oh yeah remember it's for the children...

[Singlestack]

Well that certainly was a helpful post Chris. Very informative too.

[Jim Norman]

Can we look at L-10 and Production in a different light from Limited and Open and Full Cap Production for a moment?

Yes, USPSA shooting is a platform to advance what works. 100% agree with this. Productionand L-10 are more skills dependent and less equipment dependent than say Limited and Open or full cap Production. We are fullfilling our charge with these restricted capacity divisons. How? By the skills developement required to compete in thise divisions.

try this on for size, Take a reasonable level Limited shooter and stick him into Production. and take a reasonable level Produciton shooter and stick him into Limted. Both get the proper equipment for the division. See who performs closer to their level in the new division. I think and of course I could be wrong, that we will find our L-10/Production shooter shooting a cleaner match at a higher level of performance than the Limited shooter. Why? I think that the basic skills are better reinforced in L-10 and Productino than in Open and Limited.

My opinion, others are free of course to disagree.

Jim

[wgnoyes]

The logic is that some people find it a disgrace to take a perfectly good full cap mag and bastardize it down to 10 rounds on some PC BS....

Well... the people bastardizing down a hicap magazine on some PC BS are also people who have the means to get what they want by force if they so desire, and those people are in government, and honestly, they don't care what you or I think. We still have states with magazine capacity limits. Hold your breath that we don't have it again on the national level. It is because those locales still exist that we have capacity limits in production and why we have L10 at all. What, are you going to tell residents of these states "sure, come shoot production with us, you just can't do it in your state, you gotta travel a few hours". Or worse: "come shoot production with us in your restrictive state and break the law"?

[boo radley]

The logic is that some people find it a disgrace to take a perfectly good full cap mag and bastardize it down to 10 rounds on some PC BS....

Well...perhaps the time has come for all of us to take a deep breath, and reflect on French Deconstructionalist theory. "Le morte d'auteur" or "death of the author."

For whatever reasons -- and they include accomodating the 10-round magazine capacity limit, still with us in some States -- Production ended up with a 10+1 limit. These reasons are no longer important, and the decidedly non-PC game of Production no longer belongs to those reasons. It belongs to us.

This gets back (in light of proposed new rules) to those who created it, saying, "wait, wait...we didn't intend, or forsee...." But it's no longer their game. It is what those who play it, lobby for it to be.

I agree that there are too many Divisions, but Production is unique, and at this point being upset 'cause the game is played with 10-round mags, is like being unhappy with the 140mm limit in Limited, when 30-round Glock (and other) mags exist.

[Jim Norman]

The logic is that some people find it a disgrace to take a perfectly good full cap mag and bastardize it down to 10 rounds on some PC BS....

Well...perhaps the time has come for all of us to take a deep breath, and reflect on French Deconstructionalist theory. "Le morte d'auteur" or "death of the author."

For whatever reasons -- and they include accomodating the 10-round magazine capacity limit, still with us in some States -- Production ended up with a 10+1 limit. These reasons are no longer important, and the decidedly non-PC game of Production no longer belongs to those reasons. It belongs to us.

This gets back (in light of proposed new rules) to those who created it, saying, "wait, wait...we didn't intend, or forsee...." But it's no longer their game. It is what those who play it, lobby for it to be.

I agree that there are too many Divisions, but Production is unique, and at this point being upset 'cause the game is played with 10-round mags, is like being unhappy with the 140mm limit in Limited, when 30-round Glock (and other) mags exist.

Boo,

Good point.

We have a mag length restriction in Limited of 140 mm. Why can't I put three of them toghether and get a spring made that will work it, Heck 45 round Limited gun. Oh, becasue the divisin rules say, soryy, no can do. 140mm dowuble column, 170 for single stack.

Why no crying over this BS rule (Please note the tongue in cheek tone of my typing)

We have divisions, we have rules, we have growth and hoipefuly a new improved rulebook soon. Will it be aperfect rulebook, not likely. Will it be an improvement over teh international book? I think so. Others can differ on that.

Jim

[Gregory_k]

Because the ruling is on length not on capacity.

If you really want to narrow down the field only have 3 div. Open, Ltd, rev. Not like its going to happen.

Skill will always work better over gear. a 4K ltd rig will not make me GM.

[Lee Bell]

I don't know why some of y'all are so resistant to something added if there's people that want to shoot it.

I can tell you.

The reason is that it kills the divisions. It becomes something other than competition.

How do you figure. If there aren't enouigh people to keep your preferred division, a limited 10 round Production Division, alive, why is it contingent on others, who wish to shoot otherwise, to comply to protect it? Who is it that is killing what, those that want to expand to embrace a new form of competition, or those that don't want to see anything change because it might endanger the way they've been competing in the past?

If you want to protect divisions, let's start with Single Stack. After all, that's the one that started all of this, and the one most in jeopardy as a result of those that wanted to shoot something else. If we're not ready to dump everyone else and revert to Single Stack, and I'm not suggesting we should, why aren't we willing to make room for others to shoot the way they want, just like the old 1911 shooters did for us?

And, there is certainly a place for getting together and shooting a bunch of stuff for the fun of it with buddies. But, USPSA...USPSA needs to be about the competition first and foremost.

\

I hope there's plenty of disagreement on this point, because I can tell you that, by far, the majority of the people supporting my club are shooting for fun. Count the top competitors in your club and tell me it's not the same. Then think of what would happen if all those people shooting for fun, were to take their money elsewhere.

Regardless, you're claiming that, some people want to compete with the magazine capacity that their guns were designed for, without changing a thing for those that want to retain the 10 round limit for production, and you're against it because everything has to be competitive? Come again? Do you mean everthing has to be competitive, or that everything has to be competitive your way (or someone else's, this isn't personal . . . yet)?

I don't want growth if it means we also lose out of the competitive aspects of the game. Because...we don't get that anywhere else...in as big of a dose...as we do in USPSA.

The concept that people who want to compete in a different division, is somehow anti competitive, does not wash.

I have seen other matches got to pot...competition-wise...by adopting the "lets give them all the divisions that they want" attitude. It's still fun to shoot at those places (sorta), but it is more social than performance driven.

Not everyone can be a top competitor. Not everyone wants to be. Until the few that can be, and want to be, can support the entire sport, I'm afraid you're going to have to make room for those of us that aren't quite so rabid about our scores. Just because we don't want to compete your way, or even to your level, does not mean we aren't competing.

I love the very concept of competition...in all aspects of life...and society. It brings out the best of what works. Then, it improves upon what works...sometimes throwing it out for something better...and surpasses the old standard. Always cycling upward.

So do I. So why are you trying to limit how some can compete? Why aren't you willing to tolerate change and expansion that may, in fact, make the sport better rather than worse? Why are you trying to restrain those who have, after all, only asked to be allowed to compete their way, instead of your way, just like current members asked back when the sport was dominated by 1911s?

Lee

[Chuck Merriam]

I guess I forgot about the other states with thier still intact 10 round limits....good point. I think production is a fine class....a lot of people seem to have questions about limited 10...but single stack seems to not have many people in it...but I understand wanting to intice the IDPA players into our sport. The three pound pull in production will be a hairball but c'est la vie. I think excessive back patting at a local level is great if the club can afford it...but for small clubs I think putting a limit on how many people need to be in a class is fine. My small club gives you $5 bucks back on a class if we have enough people....and $10 back for the match win...our fee is $15 to shoot. Hell...I would show up if they paid nothing, just because they donate thier time to set it up and run it.

I think our sport is still in it's infancy and could become something very big. Look at NASCAR, I think no one thought it would be as big as it is today 20 years ago. Running fast cars carrying moonshine = multi billion dollar sport. Shooting guns most people think are scary = multi billion dollar sport in 20-30 years! Maybe one day we can go public and protect our sport from those who dislike guns.

We will just have conflict and work through it until we reach the level I think we are headed for. I still get excited about seeing us on OLN and Shooting USA!

We need to go out and recruit new shooters so we grow faster.

We have the best group of people I have ever been around in a sport....As a whole we are very friendly and warm to new people.

Every rule we have should be held to this litmus test.

Edited May 9, 2007 by Chuck Merriam

[Coach]

I like Production as it is. I think the division has value that many of the others do not. Most or at least many, carry guns in this country will fit into the Production division, and so this is a nice place to compete now and again with the gun I carry on a daily basis. Open and limited are much less likely to involve the use of carry guns. The ten rounds make it level as a division should be.

There are a lot of things right about USPSA's Production division and the growth is the proof.

Edited May 9, 2007 by RoyceLowellPatton

[Lee Bell]

I must admit it would be nice to use my production gun with more bullets like my Limited gun.....but then why not just shoot my limited gun?

Because competitive limited guns aren't shot the way they were designed? Because they, and the equipment used with them are significantly modified from the original?

Let's try this quesiton instead. Why not allow the ability to decide, for yoruself, which way you'd like to shoot?

And while we are brain storming here....how about raising the floor for minor about 5PF to get the bunny fart loads a little closer to those who don't reload...just to level the field a little more.

Remington UMC 9mm factory rounds closely approximate what I reload for the XD 9 Tactical I shoot in Production. Bunny fart loads in .40, .45, 10mm, etc. used in Production are primarily to eliminate the recoil penalty you get with a larger, more powerful caliber against a smaller, less powerful one.

I, and some of my shooting friends have actually shot our 9mm XDs in Limited, accepting a substantial scoring penalty for our minor caliber ranking in that division. We were willing to compete against those with a significant advantage because we weren't allowed to compete in the division intended for "production" guns. I don't know about everyone else in the issue, but I'd have no problem dropping the issue of adding a higher capacity Production division if my stock 9mm was scored the same in Limited. Think that's likely? Me neither.

I personally don't think any of these things would hurt production, just make it better and more current. We just don't want to scare off the people who don't have the money (or want to use it to play more or travel) and don't want to play the equipment game. And I for one, can see many new shooters starting in production. I think it would be alot less confusing and more fun to let them have 15 rnds in the gun. We have all seen or can remember ourselves running our guns dry at our first few matches. Plus they would have to buy fewer mags to get started.

Most of the people I see shooting in Production are doing it for one of two reasons:

1. They're newer participants that are shooting what they own, stock guns that are good enough to get them into the sport, but not good enough to compete in the more, dare I say it, advanced divisions, and

2. Those that are trying to keep their cost down. A stock gun and 9mm ammunition is a damned sight less expensive to shoot than a race gun and 9mm major.

Lee

[driver8M3]

I hope there's plenty of disagreement on this point, because I can tell you that, by far, the majority of the people supporting my club are shooting for fun.

if these guys are just shooting for "fun," with no competitive drive, why do they need a new division to load their production guns to full capacity? they can just sign up for limited, where they'll get trounced even worse than they would in production. but they're just there for "fun" right?

i don't know too many people that sign up for a competition and enjoy losing. sure uspsa is fun, but nobody likes finishing last.

[racerba]

It is because those locales still exist that we have capacity limits in production and why we have L10 at all. What, are you going to tell residents of these states "sure, come shoot production with us, you just can't do it in your state, you gotta travel a few hours". Or worse: "come shoot production with us in your restrictive state and break the law"?

That argument doesn't hold water. These locales still shoot limited and open, do they not?

PS - there's nothing "wrong" with PD. I agree that it can be improved.

Edited May 9, 2007 by racerba

[Lee Bell]

If you create a "provisional" new Production Division, and turn the current Production into "Production-10", do you truly think you'll attract brand-new USPSA members? Or will you merely strip off a couple veterans here, and there, and create another anaemic Division? And what data suggests there's a demand for this change?

It might keep a few more people than we retain at present, but not enough to make much difference. It would serve to divide the existing division, but whose to say there aren't enough people interested in both to support both or, for that matter, that it would be Production 10 that survived. If we're willing to talk about eliminating Limited 10 in favor or a single Limited class, why aren't we equally prepared to see if the same may be appropriate for Production? Assault weapon ban issues aside, how many guns normally used in Production, have a 10 round maximum capacity? I don't ever remember seeing one.

As for what data suggests there is a demand for this change, those posting in this forum are a pretty clear indication of some interest. The question is not whether there is demand, but how much demand there is. As long as people jump all over anyone that suggests a higher capacity Production division, we'll never know.

I think USPSA should 1.) make sure current Divisions are healthy and enjoy wide-spread participation, and 2.) attract new members, and -- a distant 3rd -- create new Divisions only if it's not at the expense of "1."

Had USPSA not evolved to make Single Stack non competitive in any divison without creating a protected division for us, I probably would not have gotten involved in this in the first place. I was happy there until I found out my classifiers didn't count. The cat's out of the bag, now. I bought a gun to compete in Production and I'm liking it. Sorry about those that feel threatened by a desire to update, just like those that went before did. Life goes on.

I don't insist on a higher capacity Production division, but I favor the idea. It is others that are so adament that one should not exist. All I can say is that I'd shoot in a higher capacity Production division if it existed. That used to be a significant statement back when I shot only Single Stack. Now that I'm shooting Production too, it matters less, except, of course, now nobody can say I should have no say in a division I don't shoot.

I suspect a lot of others would shoot in a higher capacity division. It's even possible that the fears of those who like the 10 round limit might be realized. A higher capcity production division might draw so many people from a 10 round division that the more limited one became less significant, a place that truly was for the entry level shooter rather than a place where the very experienced shooter can compete against a higher proportion of new shooters than are found in any other division. Should that happen, where's the downside? It proves the demand, and accomodates it. If it doesn't happen, it proves the demand isn't there, and has no significant impact on the status quo. Where's the downside?

I had no intention of getting back into this discussion in depth. If there was a higher capacity Production division, I'd shoot in it. That would be my preference. If there never is such a division, I'll still shoot Production 10, at least until Single Stack becomes a reality. Then we'll see whether I still like Single Stack enough to drop back to an even more capacity limited division.

Hmmm, there's an idea. If we don't want to up the round limit for Production, how about we reduce it to 8 and open the division to 1911s and to Browning Hi Powers? Just kidding . . . sort of.

Lee

[Lee Bell]

I hope there's plenty of disagreement on this point, because I can tell you that, by far, the majority of the people supporting my club are shooting for fun.

if these guys are just shooting for "fun," with no competitive drive, why do they need a new division to load their production guns to full capacity? they can just sign up for limited, where they'll get trounced even worse than they would in production. but they're just there for "fun" right?

i don't know too many people that sign up for a competition and enjoy losing. sure uspsa is fun, but nobody likes finishing last.

Why would you assume that "fun" excludes any competitive drive.

It's supposed to be fun. People join the sport because it's fun. We all did. That does not mean don't want to compete. I'm 59 years old. Often as not, I hurt all over, a direct result of prior competitive sports, college soccer team meber, enduro dirt bike racer, motor cycle drag racer and master scuba diver. No competitive drive? I don't think you have to worry about that, but my primary motivation is still to have fun. I'm never going to be HOA at a major match. It simply isn't going to happen. I'll do my best to challange anyone, but the reality is, I'm not much of a threat. I compete against myself more than anyone else. No matter how strong my drive to compete is, the odds are very high against me, except the odds I'll have fun. If you have a problem with that now, just wait until your age forces you to admit that, no matter how hard you try, you're not going to get to the top. I'm not complaining, mind you, I'm having fun.

You're right about one thing, nobody like to finish last, but some of us will never again have a chance to be first. I can live with that. The alternative is much less attractive.

As for why people here for the fun want a higher capacity division, it's because it's fun. Why else? It's what we'd like to do. It's what were willing to pay to do, helping to keep this organization alive and fiscally sound. It's what we bought higher capacity guns to do.

Why shouldn't we be allowed to?

Lee

[driver8M3]

Why would you assume that "fun" excludes any competitive drive.

i didn't make such an assumption. you did:

I hope there's plenty of disagreement on this point, because I can tell you that, by far, the majority of the people supporting my club are shooting for fun. Count the top competitors in your club and tell me it's not the same. Then think of what would happen if all those people shooting for fun, were to take their money elsewhere.

[Flexmoney]

This game was designed to find out what the best gear was,

It was ? Crap...I've been doing it wrong. And, here I was thinking it was about the shooting.

Maybe a little change then ?

D = Diligentia = Accuracy.

V = Vis = Power.

C = Celeritas = Speed.

A = Apparatus = Equipment.

[Micah]

It was ? Crap...I've been doing it wrong. And, here I was thinking it was about the shooting.

Maybe a little change then ?

D = Diligentia = Accuracy.

V = Vis = Power.

C = Celeritas = Speed.

A = Apparatus = Equipment.

+1. I mean, Steve Anderson, another GM that I know has the latest and greatest STI Open gun....wait. No...he's still using the same Caspian that he's had since candybars cost a nickel.

I am confused at what all of the anger is about on this thread. I live in Production. If changes that I don't like come my way, I'll roll with the punches and continue on.

I'm in this sport to shoot. If the NROI makes a ruling that shooters must wear pink tutus in competition, than I'll order two from the local ballet shop, slap my Pharaoh logo on it, and get back to the shooting