grassy knoll Posted February 5, 2003 Share Posted February 5, 2003 I've been watching some of the old videos like Pistol Masters and How to Shoot Fast and Accurately. The interviews that Lenny does with Brian, TGO and the rest of the best are true today as they were 15 years ago, being a great shooter is not magic but just plain work and dedication. I've heard the excuses that the good shooters are just naturals, the only way to make it look natural is to practice. TGO keeps saying in the interviews how he has drawn the gun a million times, and you just know its true. I haven't seen the Matt Burkett tapes yet but I bet the fundamentals are still the same. - I have seen the Burkett tapes and the fundamentals are not the same! Matt does more on techniques than I thought he would have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted February 6, 2003 Share Posted February 6, 2003 I've heard the excuses that the good shooters are just naturals, the only way to make it look natural is to practice. Awesome!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Moneypenny Posted May 2, 2003 Share Posted May 2, 2003 Yeah, and nothing like someone saying... how did you learn to shoot like that... practice.. really how much... couple hours a day.. WHAT..... i think it has some to do with natural ability, but natural ability has to do with the motivation and willingness to become better at what you are doing. Like the quote though. i never count my draws. lol... i'd have hash marks all around my room. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Ankeny Posted May 2, 2003 Share Posted May 2, 2003 I think mere mortals fall into the trap of selling themselves short. Just about anyone with average or better reaction time and hand eye coordination can blast their way into Master class. Still, there are such things as folks who have more natural ability that relates directly to whatever endeavor they undertake than others may have. I am thinking guys like TGO and that French kid Eric have a little something "special" going for them (either physically or mentally) beyond hard work and dedication. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ToddS Posted May 2, 2003 Share Posted May 2, 2003 I agree that NO ONE will reach GM class without dedicated practice. I also agree that anyone with average hand eye coordination and physical ability can reach A, or maybe M class with work and reliable equipment. To reach the top of the game, it does require a natural ability of fast reaction and the ability to transition smoothly while multi-tasking. Just as there are many types of every breed, some are Thoroughbreds, and some of us are Plow Horses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Thomas Posted May 3, 2003 Share Posted May 3, 2003 Respectfully, I have to say I absolutely don't believe that's true. Statements like that are just a way people shortchange themselves mentally. With average hand/eye coordination and a LOT of practice, anyone can become a Grand Master. BE has described himself as "naturally somewhat awkward." He didn't start out with an innate advantage over "mere mortals" (another phrase I hate that people use to describe themselves versus GMs). With dedicated practice he became one of the best shooters on Earth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shred Posted May 4, 2003 Share Posted May 4, 2003 I'm agreeing with Duane. I'm no top shooter, but I've posted classifiers over 95%, and much as I hate to admit it, I'm no physical specimen, and am a somewhat elderly kid. Physical limits are still not what's keeping me out of GM. I believe dedication, good equipment and hard work can get you to at least 95% of the greats. After that, I think physical gifts may have some effect.. but then I look at Benny and he still whups me regularly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SiG Lady Posted May 4, 2003 Share Posted May 4, 2003 Hey, and for some of us who are motivated beyond belief there still might be the matter of economics and personal circumstances that divide our daily time pie into more than just shooting. Ammo costs money... for one thing. This lady is so motivated it hurts. No lack of ambition HERE. Hey, Shredison--you're NOT elderly!!!!!! Jeez. Not even close. Cal me backwhen you're 90--then we'll talk "elderly." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shred Posted May 4, 2003 Share Posted May 4, 2003 I meant that as in "elderly kid"-- I'm doing my best to avoid complicated adult time-and-money sucking things like houses, lawn-mowing, children and little-league practice, and instead frittering away my time on things like shooting, rock climbing, windsurfing and similar non-productive-to-society activities. Now if I could only avoid that job thing, I might have enough time to fritter. One more random thought-- I can look at shooters better than me and I don't see any there only because they have more money. I see lots that are there because they have more dedication and time devoted to it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Ankeny Posted May 4, 2003 Share Posted May 4, 2003 Duane: I guess I have to agree with you because now that I think about it GM is within my reach and I am darn near 50 and I don't even have what most would consider "average" physical ability, lol. What I am saying is those folks who are the very best (not GM, the very best GM) in the entire world probably have a little something special going for them. That something special can be temperament, visual skills, reaction time, the ability to process at high speeds, or just an innate desire and drive to be the very best at what they do. Hell, just sticking with it makes them special. Maybe I am dead wrong, but that's the way I feel. Now on the flip side, I also feel that most folks will never reach their potential because they either do not have the drive or they place too many self imposed barriers in front of themselves. Even if I am right that the best have "it" most will never even know whether or not they have "it", let alone what "it" is, lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ToddS Posted May 5, 2003 Share Posted May 5, 2003 Well, let me go little deeper into the topic, While I certainly don't have any numbers or research to back me up, I can say that I base my opinion on this. I train law enforcement officers for a living, not necessarily shooters. I am a range master for an 1100 member agency, and I train others on the side. I do this day in and day out, it's my job. I see over 2000 individuals training in firearms annually, and I take into account that most cops shoot because they have to, not because they want to. The majority of the people I train, and others that I shoot compeitively with, will never make IPSC GM no matter how hard they try. They do not possess the natural speed, reaction time, and athletic ability. Now, with that said, and I'm trying not to be ugly, but should one consider themselves a GM if they are not a competitive GM? We all know people out there who pick their classifiers, practice the runs over and over again, and turn in their only their very best. Locally, at least, we call them Grand Baggers. They remain local heros, and never go to any Area or National matches because they know they will be beaten by "A", and "B" class shooters. These guys have their GM card, but won't ever seem to be able to make it to the big events. To prove my point further, look at the total number of GM's that are listed in the USPSA, and look at the number who actually shoot the Nationals. Oh, economics you say?, the same guys that attend the State and Area Championships are still the same ones that go to the Nationals. It's a very small number, around 30 GM's usually that are even remotely competitive as GM's. That number is even distorted if you back up and look at the 6 or 8 individuals that consistantly win ALL the big matches, and see how many of us lesser GM's fall within 5% of their match scores. There, that's off my back, I've admitted that I know these things because I have a GM card, and I know I can't compete with the true 95% GM's! If IPSC scored classifiers from nothing but major matches, I dare say there would'nt be more than 50 in the history of the sport! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shred Posted May 5, 2003 Share Posted May 5, 2003 Oh yeah.. Todd's right, there's "GM" and there's the true greats. For reasons detailed extensively elsewhere here, the USPSA classification system does not, among other things, properly represent the very top of the sport. I wonder if maybe that's not driving some of the "GM"s away from the major matches-- there's almost a full class distinction between them and the winners, yet they all get lumped together. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Ankeny Posted May 5, 2003 Share Posted May 5, 2003 ToddS: I like your post and I agree with you just about 100 per cent. However, I think you might be painting with a fairly wide paintbrush when you speak about local heros, grandbaggers, and the like. The classification system can be a real Catch 22. I live in the middle of Wyoming and I have a job that limits my ability to make major matches in the Rocky Mountain Area and it would take some very real financial sacrifices to travel clear across the country to shoot. I tried to get time off for the closest Area match, but my application for leave was denied and in order to attend I would need to breach my contract and face possible disciplinary action. I am not going to quit my job in order to shoot because I wouldn't be able to afford the entry fees while on welfare, lol. I kind of use the classification system as a huge postal match and from time to time I manage to post some decent scores. When I was knocking on the door of Limited Master I stopped shooting Limited altogether for a long period of time because I didn't feel worthty of "Master" and I also didn't want to listen to the "Paper Master", "Big Frog - Small Pond" type of thing. I went so far as to sell my Limited pistol and start shooting in another division. My intent was to continue shooting and move up to Master class when I felt ready and "worthy". Well, a couple of months ago I was at a local match shooting my single stack and I signed up in Limited to see how I would fare with a skinny gun against the hi-cap guns. I entered in the division that had the highest level of competition. We shot a classifier and I was bumped up to Master class. Now I get to listen to the crap about being a "paper" Master with no real match experience. So what was I supposed to do? Tank the freaking classifier on purpose and be a honest to gosh scum bag sandbagger or shoot to my ability level? I am sure there are guys who find themselves in a similar position but they are bordering on GM. I know what at least one local hero who is on the GM doorstep has chosen to do... he switched divisions, lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ToddS Posted May 5, 2003 Share Posted May 5, 2003 I certainly don't want to insult everybody,(a few is OK), but if making to the top of any sport were as easy as simple dedication, and good equipment, and good practice habits, I would be on ESPN every weekend playing another sport making some buckaroos. Besides, football, baseball, basketball, and hockey players get more chicks. They don't have to deal with jealous husbands when they get caught with the guy's wife's name scratched on a rifle stock! At least the guy that catches them is'nt as likely to be armed and capable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kellyn Posted May 5, 2003 Share Posted May 5, 2003 Todd, I largely agree with you. No offense but I think you're a lot like me. I doubt that we'll ever be a threat to the likes of Leatham et al in the land of pistol shooting. They have a little something extra that we don't and I don't think it's just practice. However, I think that you're an awesome shooter. You're certainly one of the best three gunners around . If we had "3 gun GMs," you'd easily rate that card. You seem to have a skill in variety and thinking on your feet, something that many "Open Class Pistol GMs" seem to be lacking. Practice and dedication will get you to near the top, maybe even getting to GM but people are not equal and never will be. Competing is so much more than drawing, shooting, reloading etc. At the top, some will just rise a little higher due to natural ability or by simply being able to compete better. If I was to diagnose why shooters like TGO are great. I would say that they've practiced to the point that they have complete mastery over the basic skills of pistol shooting. But TGO is not TGO because he has a fast draw, lots of people do. He has excellent eyesight, probably his key physical advantage. But he has had the success that he's had because he is a great competitor. He is able not only to function but to excel in the "heat of battle." Many people simply are not capable of taking that pressure. The best of us thrive in it. I don't think you can practice your way into that mindset. At some point, genetics or how you were raised or what phase of the moon it was during your birth, will have an effect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ToddS Posted May 5, 2003 Share Posted May 5, 2003 Kelly, I totally agree with you, I have reached the summit of my pistol shooting ability. I will never compete with the truly elite in action pistol sports. I have shot against Robbie and the rest many times. When I shoot my best, and they have a bobble, I can get them in a stage. Standing with them overall throughout an entire match is beyond me. Otherwise, I would be shooting for a living. But this helps with my point, It's a cruel fact of life that all people are not created equal. We can only work hard and strive to be the best we can be. P.S. For anyone who thinks being a competitive "B" class shooter isn't an absolute honor, go to watch elite law enforcement and military shooters train or compete and you'll see that even people who train and shoot regularly are envious, or in awe of the abilities of good civilian IPSC shooters! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Ankeny Posted May 5, 2003 Share Posted May 5, 2003 Todd: Amen to that. The average B class IPSC shooter is actually quite the gunslinger out in the shooting world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benos Posted May 6, 2003 Share Posted May 6, 2003 For insight on how Temperament influences this realm (thread) at a professional level, be sure to read Jonathan Neidnagel's book - "Choose your best sport and play it." He starts with the theory that certain Types naturally excel in certain sports, and then really breaks it down. be Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew_Mink Posted May 12, 2003 Share Posted May 12, 2003 Todd:Amen to that. The average B class IPSC shooter is actually quite the gunslinger out in the shooting world. Somewhere I was reading a little story about a B class IPSC shooter who was forced to defend himself and had to shoot a couple of badguys in real life. Much later, he commented to a friend that shooting the badguys was like "shooting fish in a barrel". I have maintained since I have been involved in sport shooting that the average competitor (C or B class, Sharpshooter, etc...) can completely wow the average citizen. Recently I took a guy I work with to see an IPSC club match, and the whole ride home he kept commenting that he had never seen anything like that in his life. He also thought we were some of the top shooters in the country! As much as I hated to burst his bubble, I had to inform him that all of the people he was talking about were good competitors, but nowhere near the top, and in fact would be considered just a little above average. He was floored, he couldn't comprehend that there were shooters lightyears ahead of us. GM's are like that too. There are GM's, then there are THE GM's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Thomas Posted May 12, 2003 Share Posted May 12, 2003 Several years ago in Washington State, an armed psycho walked into a gun shop and tried to kill the uniformed policeman inside. One of the employes drew his gun, a stainless steel Colt Delta Elite Gold Cup, and, at a distance of about 10 yards, put three fast shots of big bore Magnum level rounds into the center of the bad guy's chest, saving the cop's life. I've seen the autopsy photos - great group, looked like a little triangle. C-class IPSC shooter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JD45 Posted December 4, 2003 Share Posted December 4, 2003 I once read a little story about a young skeet shooter. After watching the kid run some 100 straights, an onlooker commented,"wow, he is one of the best shots that I've seen in ages". Another top shot replied,"yes, he is truly is an excellent shot, but he'll never be a champion". "How come?", the man replied. "He is not comfortable being in that position, because it truly is sort of lonely at the top. You have to accept everything that comes with holding your position at the top, and be comfortable with it." The name of that book chapter was 'Champions and Us'. I think that says alot. You may have the ability, but do you really want to be there? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jasonub Posted December 4, 2003 Share Posted December 4, 2003 yes I like to be there!!!! PLeeeeeaaaazzzze oh God Pleeeezzzzeee!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patrick Sweeney Posted December 4, 2003 Share Posted December 4, 2003 Oh, the burden and knowledge of a varied background. I guess I'm one of those "gifted" people. However, a gift is only part of it. With practice, you can go a heck of a lot farther than you might think. My martial arts instructors had the same approach, learned from the master: "Great. That was a perfect kick. Now do it perfectly 500 times. Each class." Even in our hard-core, merit-only, school, there were black belts and there were Black Belts. However, due to Mr. Shim's insistance in excellence, even our bb could wipe the floor with any other place's same-rank student. The BB's were awesome only because they had the extra 1% it took. Training? Genetics? Atititude? I saw all three in one or another. In High School I went out for the wrestling team. The first (and only year) I went to the State Finals. (6'2", 139 lbs, aka "The Mad Stork.") Because I was gifted? No, our coach had been the National NCAA Champ in his weight division, and drilled us in thousands of repetitions of moves. When he was done I still had no instinctive grasp of wrestling, but I could react faster, and last longer, than any opponent except that last one. At Second Chance there were Master Blasters and there were THE Master Blasters. About 150 shooters made the rank, but there were less than 50 who were killers and less than ten who were known, loot-earning machines. Why? Some gifts, yes, but mostly hard work. What did it take to earn loot as an OSS? Under 25 seconds in the Main Event. As a MB? Under 22. Is 25 unattainable? No. Can everyone shoot under 22? No, but with correct practice a whole lot more could have than did. If you want a GM rating you need to practice. If you expect to rub elbows with Jerry, Jerry, Tod, Robbie, etc. you'd better eat, drink, breathe shooting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benos Posted December 16, 2003 Share Posted December 16, 2003 In shooting, little we do - especially paying attention - could be considered natural. That's why we must train endlessly. be Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patrick Sweeney Posted December 17, 2003 Share Posted December 17, 2003 One episode with Mr. Shim: He asks a question, and I answer. He asks me "Did you hear what I said, or were you simply waiting for your turn to speak?" Many people do not converse, they simply wait their turn to speak. Did you actually see what you needed to see? Or were you simply waiting for the gun to reset before pulling the trigger again? Paying attention is perhaps the hardest thing to do in life. And pays the greatest dividend. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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