P.E. Kelley Posted February 20, 2007 Share Posted February 20, 2007 I asked for clarification on the use of the conversion barrel for the G20 to use the 40 S&W cartridge. A local match director mentioned to me that the following is what to expect from headquarters. I do not want to start a "S" storm over this just a FYI. Rules is Rules. I will now go back to my small framed Glocks Patrick E. Kelley TY14401 Hi Patrick, If you are shooting the gun in Production division, then the gun has to be on the approved list, the model 20 is, but it was approved as a 10 mm, not a .40S&W, they have a model that is approved in .40S&W. You may according to the current rules, replace the barrel, but it must be the same length as the original factory standard, for the 10mm model 20, it is 4.60" and for the .40S&W model 22, it is 4.49", so it is not allowed. In the 2008 draft rules presently being considered by the BOD, item 20 has it that aftermarket barrels are allowed provided that they are the same length, contour and caliber as original factory standard. So now, it has to be as approved, and if the rules in 2008 remain as written, you cannot change caliber. If you are shooting the gun in Limited 10 or Limited, the replacement barrel must be the same length as the original factory standard, in the 2008 draft, they have the same language as Production, so again, you would not be able to change the 10mm with the .40S&W currently as the barrel length is not the same as the original factory barrel, and 2008, not only has the barrel have to be the same length, but you will not be able to change the caliber either. Regards, John Amidon VP USPSA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveZ Posted February 20, 2007 Share Posted February 20, 2007 If you are shooting the gun in Limited 10 or Limited, the replacement barrel must be the same length as the original factory standard, in the 2008 draft, they have the same language as Production, so again, you would not be able to change the 10mm with the .40S&W currently as the barrel length is not the same as the original factory barrel, and 2008, not only has the barrel have to be the same length, but you will not be able to change the caliber either.Regards, John Amidon VP USPSA Last time I checked.....10mm and 40S&W WERE the same CALIBER. They're not the same cartridge...but they are the same caliber. So what if you can find a 40S&W barrel that is the same LENGTH as the 10mm barrel in a G20? Seems like you've covered both the same length and same caliber issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
midvalleyshooter Posted February 20, 2007 Share Posted February 20, 2007 Can you run 40 S & W in a 10mm chambered barrel? Keith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dirtypool40 Posted February 20, 2007 Share Posted February 20, 2007 I think it headspaces off the case mouth, so technically no, but I bet it would run fine, maybe not match accurate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shred Posted February 20, 2007 Share Posted February 20, 2007 We went around on this one already. "Caliber" does not equal "chambering", and I believe even Amidon agreed. The barrel length issue is separate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dirty whiteboy Posted February 20, 2007 Share Posted February 20, 2007 (edited) Can you run 40 S & W in a 10mm chambered barrel? I think it headspaces off the case mouth, so technically no, but I bet it would run fine, maybe not match accurate. I have shot several thousand 40 s&w rds through a Glock 20! No problems, many opinions on why I should not do this, but the gun just keeps running! A carry an extra extractor in my bag. Accuracy is fine, pepper poppers from about 60 yds! I prefer the larger frame Glocks, and shooting a 140 pf load is sweet out of this gun! Edited February 20, 2007 by dirty whiteboy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rik Posted February 20, 2007 Share Posted February 20, 2007 I have shot several thousand 40 s&w rds through a Glock 20! No problems, many opinions on why I should not do this, but the gun just keeps running! A carry an extra extractor in my bag. Accuracy is fine, pepper poppers from about 60 yds! I prefer the larger frame Glocks, and shooting a 140 pf load is sweet out of this gun! Are you saying you shot the 40 through the 10mm barrel. If so, that's very intresting. Why the extra extractor. Thanks for any reply. Rik Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dirty whiteboy Posted February 20, 2007 Share Posted February 20, 2007 I have shot several thousand 40 s&w rds through a Glock 20! No problems, many opinions on why I should not do this, but the gun just keeps running! A carry an extra extractor in my bag. Accuracy is fine, pepper poppers from about 60 yds! I prefer the larger frame Glocks, and shooting a 140 pf load is sweet out of this gun! Are you saying you shot the 40 through the 10mm barrel. If so, that's very intresting. Why the extra extractor. Thanks for any reply. Rik Yes, I shoot 40 s&w out of the factory Glock 10 mm barrel! Probably 5-6 thousand of my reloads, and my GF has shot a couple thousand Win White box 165's out of it! I carry an extra extractor because the extractor is holding the round in place, so it may be subject to added stress! I have not broken one , just a precaution! I have not had a rd slip off the extractor either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaseyJ Posted February 21, 2007 Share Posted February 21, 2007 The rule states that the barrel must be the same length as the barrel it is replacing. If you think that a G20 barrel in 40 should be the same length as a g22 or g35 barrel that is stupid! How can anyone think this way. If it is a replacement barrel and it is the same length it should be allowed in limited. As for production I have no problems with either way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted February 21, 2007 Share Posted February 21, 2007 Wow... 1911...STI shooters...as well ? Who is going to be doing all that measuring down to the tenth of an inch ? Unbelievable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted February 21, 2007 Share Posted February 21, 2007 I've sent off an email to Amidon and to my Area (5) Director. Hopefully we can get some cooperation on this...it just makes sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coltgov Posted February 21, 2007 Share Posted February 21, 2007 Can you run 40 S & W in a 10mm chambered barrel?I think it headspaces off the case mouth, so technically no, but I bet it would run fine, maybe not match accurate. I have shot several thousand 40 s&w rds through a Glock 20! No problems, many opinions on why I should not do this, but the gun just keeps running! A carry an extra extractor in my bag. Accuracy is fine, pepper poppers from about 60 yds! I prefer the larger frame Glocks, and shooting a 140 pf load is sweet out of this gun! The 10mm oal of 1.260 may allow uses of very fast powders like clays to make 165PF. Or a heavier 200 grain bullet. Both would be even softer loads than using a conversion barrel to make major. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TDean Posted February 21, 2007 Share Posted February 21, 2007 (edited) ...Unbelievable is right. Edited February 22, 2007 by TDean Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted February 21, 2007 Share Posted February 21, 2007 [below is what I sent to anidon and my AD...feel free to use it to send to your Area Director] John, I just read this, from you (by way of Patrick Kelley)...and I'm have quite a bit of trouble with it (my comments, inserted in blue): [PK] I asked for clarification on the use of the conversion barrel for the G20 to use the 40 S&W cartridge. A local match director mentioned to me that the following is what to expect from headquarters. ... Patrick E. Kelley TY14401 Hi Patrick, [JA] If you are shooting the gun in Production division, then the gun has to be on the approved list, the model 20 is, but it was approved as a 10 mm, not a 40S&W, they have a model that is approved in 40S&W. You may according to the current rules, replace the barrel, but it must be the same length as the original factory standard, for the 10mm model 20, it is 4.60" and for the .40S&W model 22, it is 4.49", so it is not allowed. [KF] To my knowledge, replacement barrels that go into the G20 are the same length as standard G20 barrels. As we know...40S&W and 10mm are the same caliber, just like 38special can be shot through 357mag guns. A replacement barrel for the G20 that is chambered in 40S&W would be the same length as a 10mm barrel. (You don't replace the 10mm G20 barrel with a 40S&W G22 barrel...that just isn't how it is done. Perhaps this is the point of confusion?) [current rule] 21.3 Replacement barrels allowed provided barrel length is same as original factory standard. Heavy barrels and/or barrel sleeves not allowed. Replacement barrels are allowed. The 1st requirement is that they are the same length as the original. The second requirement excludes "heavy barrels"...which to my thinking...excludes putting a 9mm barrel into a 10mm gun (which would create a bit of a bull barrel). The wording there...in the rules...doesn't negate using a 40 barrel in a G20 (same caliber), so long as the barrel length remains the same. [JA] In the 2008 draft rules presently being considered by the BOD, item 20 has it that aftermarket barrels are allowed provided that they are the same length, contour and caliber as original factory standard. So now, it has to be as approved, and if the rules in 2008 remain as written, you cannot change caliber. [KF] Again...40S&W and 10mm are the same caliber... 0.400inches. [JA] If you are shooting the gun in Limited 10 or Limited, the replacement barrel must be the same length as the original factory standard, in the 2008 draft, they have the same language as Production, so again, you would not be able to change the 10mm with the .40S&W currently as the barrel length is not the same as the original factory barrel, and 2008, not only has the barrel have to be the same length, but you will not be able to change the caliber either. [KF] Wow...by your take on this...this is a huge change. You are somehow drawing the conclusion that a 40 barrel has a different length than a 10mm barrel ? Or, that they are a caliber change ? You will be sending a lot of shooters out the door if you don't allow 40 in a Glock 20 in Limited and Limited 10 (my CRO girlfriend for one...and an RO buddy for another). - On a slightly different note. Above, you mention the length difference of about a tenth of an inch (4.60 vs. 4.49). Now...that has never been enforced in Limited (as per the current rules). There are a multitude of barrels in STI (and like) guns out there that are a tenth of an inch longer than standard. They are replacement barrels for the 5 inch guns to be sure, but they still exceed the tenth of an inch that you mentioned earlier. The big thing I'd like to point out is that not a bit of this makes any sort of competitive advantage whatsoever. The rules, as written and practiced, seem to allow the variances. To say otherwise takes a creative stance on the wording...or some bit of history that I am unaware of, and that isn't written in the rulebook with any clarity. People want to shoot 40, instead of 10mm, because they can afford the brass. They like the 10mm guns and frames (as they have a right to), but 10mm brass is expensive and hard to find. I hope we can pursue wording in the future rulebook...as well as a BOD interpretation for the next year or so with the current book...that would allow these shooters to stay with us. I'd like to see BOD ruling for the current rulebook that would allow 40S&W in the G20 in Production, Limited, and Limited-10. And, I would like to see the proposed wording for the 2008 book to allow the same. Lets include these shooters, not exclude them. They gain no advantage other than a cost savings*. Thanks, Kyle F. Ohio Section Coordinator USPSA *(for the record, good replacement barrels can be had for around $80. With 10mm brass running near that for a mere 1,000 rounds...the cost savings is significant with 40 brass from free to $20/k) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveZ Posted February 21, 2007 Share Posted February 21, 2007 (edited) From the 15th edition rule book: Caliber -- The diameter of a bullet measured in millimeters (or thousandths of an inch). From the 2008 Draft rule book: Caliber -- The diameter of a bullet measured in millimeters (or thousandths of an inch). Come on! How can you possibly interpret "caliber" when used in definition of barrel as meaning cartridge. If they want to say cartridge....SAY CARTRIDGE. Edited February 21, 2007 by SteveZ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TDean Posted February 22, 2007 Share Posted February 22, 2007 Great job Kyle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaseyJ Posted February 22, 2007 Share Posted February 22, 2007 From the 15th edition rule book:Caliber -- The diameter of a bullet measured in millimeters (or thousandths of an inch). From the 2008 Draft rule book: Caliber -- The diameter of a bullet measured in millimeters (or thousandths of an inch). Come on! How can you possibly interpret "caliber" when used in definition of barrel as meaning cartridge. If they want to say cartridge....SAY CARTRIDGE. No dont say cartridge cause you cant enforce this either. Just think 398 super, 38 supercomp, 38 TJ, shall I continue? seriously ppl just interpret the rules the way they are written not the way you think. This is purely about price of brass for me! not competetive advantage otherwise i would be shooting an S_I or something similar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shred Posted February 22, 2007 Share Posted February 22, 2007 From the 15th edition rule book: Caliber -- The diameter of a bullet measured in millimeters (or thousandths of an inch). From the 2008 Draft rule book: Caliber -- The diameter of a bullet measured in millimeters (or thousandths of an inch). Come on! How can you possibly interpret "caliber" when used in definition of barrel as meaning cartridge. If they want to say cartridge....SAY CARTRIDGE. No dont say cartridge cause you cant enforce this either. Just think 398 super, 38 supercomp, 38 TJ, shall I continue? seriously ppl just interpret the rules the way they are written not the way you think. This is purely about price of brass for me! not competetive advantage otherwise i would be shooting an S_I or something similar. There's a reason the IPSC rulebook doesn't mention caliber anymore in respect to replacement guns-- I beyotched about it enough to Vince, and sent him a long list of examples that where the rulebook wants to mean bullet diameter, they use 'caliber' and where they mean a particular cartridge, they spell it out as in "9x19". I also sent a long list of cartrige cases that would fit and feed into most any Open gun, as you say. The bullet is what we score and chrono, who cares what's written on the headstamp? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coltgov Posted February 22, 2007 Share Posted February 22, 2007 If this rule stands, I will just shoot S&W 40 out of my 10mm barrel in big matches. Local matches will stick with the conversion barrel. Arguments can't get around that Glock doesn't make a S&W40 G20 which is Armidon's main argument. The other platforms do even with slight variances in barrel length which is a moot point. Anyways hope he makes an exception to this rule. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee Bell Posted February 22, 2007 Share Posted February 22, 2007 Can you run 40 S & W in a 10mm chambered barrel? Since the rounds headspace on the case mouth, it would not work well. At least one of my friends, firmly in the grip of whatever he was drinking that day, managed to shoot .40s out of a 10mm. I turns out that the extractor will hold them in place well enough for ignition. I imagine it's pretty tough on the extractor as well as on the chamber. Lee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee Bell Posted February 22, 2007 Share Posted February 22, 2007 If this rule stands, I will just shoot S&W 40 out of my 10mm barrel in big matches. Local matches will stick with the conversion barrel.Arguments can't get around that Glock doesn't make a S&W40 G20 which is Armidon's main argument. The other platforms do even with slight variances in barrel length which is a moot point. Anyways hope he makes an exception to this rule. Personally, I think you've made your case. Your original question did not specify a barrel length. You've since clarified that, stating that any barrel you'd put in your pistol would be the same length as the one it originally came with. You're absolutely correct about the definition of caliber and that .40 and 10mm are, in fact, the same caliber. For what it's worth, I made the same transition you're making, for the same reason. I started out shooting .40, a Colt Delta Elite in my case, and switched to .40 specifically because of the availability of brass. It wasn't the cost, but the difficulty in getting brass at any price. I'm still waiting on brass I ordered months ago that is backordered by my supplier. Because my 10mm is a Delta Elite, I chose not to convert it to .40. I bought a new 1911 in .40. There's no such thing as too many guns. I suggest you buy the replacement barrel, ensuring that it is the same length as the original and carry a copy of the paperwork identifying the length to matches. If/when you run into problems, make sure you're surrounded by people that actually know what caliber .40 and 10mm are. Lee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dirty whiteboy Posted February 22, 2007 Share Posted February 22, 2007 (edited) I deleted my post! Edited February 22, 2007 by dirty whiteboy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin Kline Posted February 22, 2007 Share Posted February 22, 2007 I agree Flex, good response. Hopefully we can get this changed or worked on. I think it is ridiculous to change this. Several people like the large frame Glocks, but shoot it in 40 for the brass savings, not the down loading or anything else. Keep our fingers crossed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TDean Posted February 22, 2007 Share Posted February 22, 2007 This whole thing has sooo many implications.... Can a person legally shoot 38special from a .357 revolver? Is fitting a .40SW barrel to a Colt Delta Elite (10mm from factory) legal? I think the rules are fine the way they are. I think whoever wrote them originally had taken all t his into account (perhaps they forgot?) It seems that we already have two rules in place that level the field: 1) Diameter of the bullet. 2) Velocity of the bullet. I think shooting a 9mm in the large frame Glock would be an advantage in Production as the large frame would soak up more recoil than the standard size guns.....but the rule in place would prevent that. You cannot change "calibers". In Limited division 9mm CAN"T score major anyway. Done. The existing rules recognize that as long as the "caliber" is the same as factory, and you are propelling that mass at the required velocity, the laws of physics (Newton) guarantee that the recoil force will be equal. Calipers and chronographs do not lie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee Bell Posted February 22, 2007 Share Posted February 22, 2007 I deleted my post! How did you do that? There have been several I would have deleted if I knew how. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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