L10 - Keep It Or Lose It?

[uscbigdawg]

My vote has to remove L-10 as a seperate division and make it a tag category under Limited Division.

I would support that as soon as we agree to only recognize the top overall finish in Open, just as we would only recognize the top overall finish in L10 (that's what we do with categories, right?).

Open is a Division. L10 being under Limited would make it a Category. There's a significant difference. For me, this is how I would have the Divisions and Categories:

Open: Category for Revolver (to bring in some of the ICORE crew)

Limited: Categories for Limited 10 and MAYBE Revolver

Production: Category for Singlestack and MAYBE Revolver

Instead of adding divisions or making them provisional, how about fewer divisions, and more categories. Scoring is simpler and makes for better comparisons platform to platform.

Rich

[ima45dv8]

My vote has to remove L-10 as a seperate division and make it a tag category under Limited Division.

I would support that as soon as we agree to only recognize the top overall finish in Open, just as we would only recognize the top overall finish in L10 (that's what we do with categories, right?).

Open is a Division. L10 being under Limited would make it a Category. There's a significant difference. For me, this is how I would have the Divisions and Categories:

Open: Category for Revolver (to bring in some of the ICORE crew)

Limited: Categories for Limited 10 and MAYBE Revolver

Production: Category for Singlestack and MAYBE Revolver

Instead of adding divisions or making them provisional, how about fewer divisions, and more categories. Scoring is simpler and makes for better comparisons platform to platform.

Rich

Rich,

I clearly understand the difference between a division and a category. I just don't see the benefit of moving an established, mature and successful Division to Category status.

Let's try another approach.... You advocate taking a division, one that you don't play or rarely play (as we know you love of your Open blaster ), and relegate it to a category status. I'm just trying to get you to consider how you might feel if someone were to attempt to have your mature, established division sent to the back of the bus. L10 is hurting no one and should be left as it is.

We won't agree on this, but that's OK, too.

Edited February 20, 2007 by ima45dv8

[boo radley]

I like your philosphy, Rich, though I don't think it will happen.

Single Stack is maybe a great "theme match", but maybe not so great a Division, until this 'chicken/egg' thing gets straightened out?

Besides Zhunter, who wants to pay $200 and shoot against 1 or 2 othe people?

Regardless, as Tony Shores pointed out, the FlOpen probably isn't a great gauge of SS, since it is high round, with lots of great shooters in Open and Ltd, which makes (at least in my mind) wanting to shoot in those divisions attractive.

[uscbigdawg]

Hi Mark,

I know what you're saying though about L-10 being established. That's what makes it tough and unfortunately when it was created, it set a "bad" precedent (I hate saying 'bad' 'cause it's brought and retained people to the sport). That said, a big part of the decision in creating it was the AWB. With the sunset, in theory, L-10 shoud have gone too (yes obviously the states that can't get hi-caps still suffer, but then that's for Open too).

My point is that just because something is, doesn't mean it's set up correctly and it can be changed. Case in point is Open Revolver. A long time ago, I bought a Taurus 608 so that I can shoot ICORE and the occasional Open Revolver match in USPSA. Murphy's Law. Once it got done getting tweaked, USPSA announced no more Open Revolver and Revolver Division is limited to 6 round wheels. No point in having it just to shoot one match a year (the IRC) and barely want to shoot it to begin with.

Yeah, I might be biased 'cause I primarily shoot Open, but then I'm also making up for all those years starting out in Limited with my singlestack SA-1911 against the other guns. Still practiced and won my first hi-cap frame and built it up to my first hi-cap Limited gun (which I NEVER should have sold). It's okay though...got my BCG Limited and LOVE IT!

I just see it as a slippery slope. Just 'cause we want every gun to have a home, doesn't mean we need to make a Division for each one. Production was one of the greatest decisions made and between Open, Limited and Production, every gun has a place to play. If we create new division for every possible platform, where does it end? 8 shooters in single action plastic pistol and 6 shooters in double action only greater than 6 round revolver? Open and Limited will (for the most part) be the most popular divisions. For me simplifying things seem to always make things run smoother, more efficiently and as another benefit, more successful.

Rich

[maineshootah]

I started out in L-10 and still shoot it quite a lot.

(snip)

First of all, it is the poor man's open division.

Every other division is restrictive on the type of gun you can shoot.

L-10 can shoot single stack, single action, double action, plastic, 2011, major, minor, whatever.

Short of optics and a comp, name a gun you can't shoot in L-10.

Also worth mentioning is much more freedom in holster type and placement.

I'm convinced that occasionally running with 10 rounds helps my limited game.

It forces better focus on stage breakdown and I get more reload practice under match conditions.

It's also nice to come to the line without 80 rounds of ammo trying to drag my belt down to my knees.

I see no compelling reason to kill it but that doesn't seem to matter.

(snip)

I say we leave it alone and move on.

Tony

+1

With a growing population in Maine starting to get the idea of action pistol, L10 is a great gateway to the USPSA shooting family.

[maineshootah]

Darn double click!

Edited February 20, 2007 by maineshootah

[ima45dv8]

Good to hear from you, as always, Rich.

[Flexmoney]

Instead of adding divisions or making them provisional, how about fewer divisions, and more categories.

All that really is...is word play. You still have the same separation. Actually...it likely hurts the sub-division/category...as it doesn't get stand alone billing and support.

...That said, a big part of the decision in creating it was the AWB.

I think a lot of people tie L-10 to the AWB...thus, the perspective they bring to the discussions.

I like L-10...and it has nothing at all to due with the AWB or states that have a mag limit.

It just fits guns that newbies show up with. Often, their carry guns.

[JFD]

+1 Flex. Good post.

[zhunter]

Last year there were 41 in L-10, this year only 26.

Now tell me how strong it is and show me the growth curve?

I am NOT bashing L-10, but I AM tired of the L-10'ers bashing PSSD!!!!

[Lee Bell]

I guess I am the opposite. I was a Limited shooter, and have moved down to shoot Single Stack. I like the gun, but also the need to get your hits, with only 8 shots, you cannot afford to miss and make-up shots with only 8. I think that is another turn off for many if the speed race that is USPSA. I also agree that the Provisional status has people waiting until it is "approved" and there are proper classifications.I believe that by devoting my time to something I already love, I will be ahead of the curve when it becomes a recognized division.

Frankly, I had not given the need to shoot more accurately a lot of thought. I kind of accept that regardless of division. I do find, though, that I really enjoy the increased mental aspect of planning how I'm going to shoot the stage and when I'm going to reload to do it most efficiently.

Oh yeah, I was married, and now I'm not

Been there, done that. Once I was single, then I was married, then I was single, then I was married, then I was single, now I'm married again. Third time appears to be a charm. I've been with wife number three more than twice as long as both other wives combined.

Lee

[zhunter]

Lee

The best I can tell, SSD is all about points and not having to take make-up shots, as that leaves you at slide-lock or worse, standing re-loads. I believe the trick to this game ( i.e. SSD ) is to get your hits the first time. Many shooters want to go fast or to have lots of ammo in their mags to be able to take make-up shots. That just is not competitive in SSD.

SSD is going to take mental discipline that many are not willing to endure.

[Lee Bell]

Lee

The best I can tell, SSD is all about points and not having to take make-up shots, as that leaves you at slide-lock or worse, standing re-loads. I believe the trick to this game ( i.e. SSD ) is to get your hits the first time. Many shooters want to go fast or to have lots of ammo in their mags to be able to take make-up shots. That just is not competitive in SSD.

SSD is going to take mental discipline that many are not willing to endure.

Works for me. I'll be 59 next month. I no longer have the physical ability or vision to compete in an all out race. I do, however, still have a strong desire to compete. A division that highlights the mental and accuracy aspects of the sport over the more physical ones, suites me well. As much as I like the casual stages run at Markham on Thursday nights, I'll be looking for opportunities to get classified and to gain match experience. Perhaps next year, we'll both compete in the Open.

Lee

[TriggerT]

With the number I see from match entries for L-10, I just can't see why we are still even discussing getting rid of it. Also, as had been said by others, one of the things that has turned many people off in IDPA is the constant equipment changes. Please don't let USPSA fall into the same trap.

[JFD]

I'd have to say that if I shot in a division that got blown away by Revolver, I'd be quiet about how many shot L-10. L-10 had a 36.6% drop versus the 50% drop with PSSD. At least L-10 has a history of being either hot or cold at this match if you check the past results.

I don't really care if USPSA has created another Revolver division in terms of attendance. Does it hurt anyone? I don't think so, especially when PSSD is taking a long established match and calling it their Nats. Unfortunately folks like our AD have turned it into an "us or them" kind of thing and never even asked the opinion of at least one of his SCs. It doesn't help that he isn't alone and that group is without a clue if the poll results here and at the USPSA site are considered. Their total lack of response at the USPSA forum tells me they plan to ignore the membership. The good folks on the BOD may not always be able to keep things in check, at least until the next election where we can help them out.

The constant attacks on L-10 are hurting the division. My wife and I quit shooting it because having your division attacked all the time gets old fast. We both now shoot Limited. My beloved SS will be retired until this is resolved.

[38superman]

Last year there were 41 in L-10, this year only 26.

Now tell me how strong it is and show me the growth curve?

I am NOT bashing L-10, but I AM tired of the L-10'ers bashing PSSD!!!!

I'm not sure the Open is the best example for growth/no growth of any low cap division.

It would be only natural to bring your high cap gun to a match that's traditionally filled with long field courses.

I admire you for having the determination to support the PSSD and I hope it succeeds.

It takes a lot of discipline and focus to motor through all those hoser stages with 8 round mags.

I would like to shoot it myself but I prefer to do it at a match that has a little better mix of stage types.

I shot my single stack in L10 my entire first year in IPSC, (before PSSD was born).

Last year was L10, this year is Limited.

Next year probably open.

At some point I will come full circle.

SS will get it's turn.

Tony

Edited February 20, 2007 by tlshores

[ihatepickles]

Does it hurt anyone? I don't think so...

This is important to me. I only have a stake in L10 and SSD arguments as it relates to the health of the USPSA, meaning I shoot neither division. I know there's a certain amount of money that must be spent to administratively maintain these divisions.

My opinion, is that the membership of these divisions must pull their own weight monetarily. I'm not saying that currently they're not, because I don't know. I'm saying my opinion of this hinges on whether the membership at large is subsidizing what may not be a financially viable niche.

I don't want to meddle in a division I don't care to shoot but I've heard whispers that financially it doesn't make sense to continue with both. I'd like to know where things really stand.

Does anyone have the numbers with quotable sources?

[sturmruger]

Since I am shooting my XD in Limited 10 this year I am hoping that they do not get rid of the Division. It is a good fit for my XD until I can figure out a way to get a XD40 with 18 rounds mags I am going to stay in Lim 10.

[zhunter]

Excuse me, but how can they get rid of a popular division, i.e. L-10, that is essentially backed by some States Laws?

L-10 is here to stay unless the Kalifornia's, Massachusetts', New Jersey's, etc. allow shooters to purchase large capacity Magzines.

USPSA will not eliminate a Division that is so popular, both because people like it AND current laws dictate it's existence.

Please people, they to take a deep breath and think clearly!!!

Edited February 20, 2007 by zhunter

[1911user]

It was quietly eliminated once last year. L10 was absent from the new 2008 rulebook before Bruce Gary forced a vote to reinstate it.

It was added back as a division by a margin of 1 vote.

L10 is most definitely still in the crosshairs and only 1 vote change away from elimination.

Excuse me, but how can they get rid of a popular division, i.e. L-10, that is essentially back by some States Laws?

L-10 is here to stay unless the Kalifornia's, Massachusetts', New Jersey's, etc. allow shooters to purchase large capacity Magzines.

USPSA will not eliminate a Division that is so popular, but because people like it AND current laws dictate it's existence.

Please people, they to take a deep breath and think clearly!!!

Edited February 20, 2007 by 1911user

[Gregory_k]

Some may want SS to become the next version of L-10.

If I can use my 10 rounders and my race holster and put my magazines anywhere on the belt I chose, them maybe i can see this as a good thing.

If I want to shoot the Current SS, I'll go to a IDPA match.

[uscbigdawg]

The argument that L-10 is an affordable means for folks to get into the sport doesn't wash, only because the gun modifications allowed are the same as in Limited. My L-10 classifcations were shot with my SA-1911, however, I have shot my hi-cap Limited gun on a couple of L-10 classifiers simply 'cause I didn't want to lug an extra gun (and ammo & mags) to the match that day.

An affordable means for folks to get into the sport is already here and that's Production. By the firearms, modifications allowed and equipment, this is the affordable means to get into the sport. For IDPA shooters, in all divisions (except where they would use a 1911 or other SA gun) it's an immediate crossover. Rather than add a category for singlestack under Production though, the BOD decided to add SSD. Like IHP said, is this even financially viable? Probably not. While the 1911 and Glock are the two most popular pistols sold in the US, it doesn't they each warrant their own division. Production is production. From the factory with concealment/non-race gear. Period. I again say that 1911's should either be a category in Production or be allowed to shoot Production maybe with 10 round mags (it's screwy, but it "levels" out the guns in the division if someone deemed it necessary).

As for state laws restricting guns and that being a mandate for the existence of a division, as a California resident I disagree with this completely. Yeah the statement will be made, "well you already have all your guns so you don't care," but nothing could be further from the truth. If a CA resident wants to get into Limited on a National level, you can do what our membership in Hawaii (and other mag restrictive states have done) and that's shoot 10 round mags. When you head out of state, run your hi-caps. It's mean, cold, etc. but that's the reality of it. Again, I'm not saying eliminate it all together, just as a seperate division.

Just my 2 Lincoln's.

Rich

[Lee Bell]

I think a lot of people tie L-10 to the AWB...thus, the perspective they bring to the discussions. I like L-10...and it has nothing at all to due with the AWB or states that have a mag limit. It just fits guns that newbies show up with. Often, their carry guns.

Many of which have 10 round magazines only because of the AWB or similar limits still imposed in some geographies.

[Jim Norman]

I started out wwith a SS in Limited, using 10 rounders and got classified that way.

True I now shoot a P-16 in 40 cal in both Limited and L-10, Same gun, VERY different horse race. I can also shoot my XD 40 in L10 either minor or major if I want to, same for my Sig or G22. SS does not allow for this. And Production does not make nice nice with major loads. I like to shoot a major PF. It is again a different game than minor, even with 10 rounds inthe gun. So L-10 is a good thing, as is Production and SS and Limited and Open

They are all different flavors of the same bowl of ice cream

Jim

[Jack Suber]

The dems just introduced a bill to reinstate the AWB. See my post "Here they come again." So, looks like we will definitely need to keep L10.