Engaging Target W/o Gun

[bigbrowndog]

I would like to know, from the rule readers. Is there a penalty for neutralizing a target w/o your gun.

At a recent 3 gun event, IMGA rules. there was a clay pigeon placed on the ground,(on a stake) within the shooting area. I engaged the #$%#^&* thing and missed, which upset me, it also caused me to screw up my loading sequence, (slugs and shot) anyway. In the process of trying to get a shot load into the chamber to re-engage the clay, I came within kicking distance of the thing, and briefly thought about just kicking it, and breaking it. I didn't, but the idea has gotten me thinking, is there a rule that penalizes me for doing it after i've already engaged it(shot at it). I would have not stepped out of a shooting box, the bay was the shooting box and you could have gone anywhere in the bay to engage the targets.

I await your answers!!!!!!

Trapr

[kurtm]

As a match director with years of experience with IMGA rules, I would have to say I would look at this like "kicking a wounded Buffalo" ( the African kind ) You were supposed to shoot it, but now you are kicking it....I suppose the head stone would read.......match director was amused, but the shooter died! I wouldn't let it fly, after all we are testing shooting not the "Rich Karloss" leg! Nice try Big Brown GAMER!!!

Edited January 27, 2007 by kurtm

[AikiDale]

Sensei approves but I suspect the range lawyers won't.

[Larry White]

I would like to know, from the rule readers. Is there a penalty for neutralizing a target w/o your gun.

At a recent 3 gun event, IMGA rules. there was a clay pigeon placed on the ground,(on a stake) within the shooting area. I engaged the #$%#^&* thing and missed, which upset me, it also caused me to screw up my loading sequence, (slugs and shot) anyway. In the process of trying to get a shot load into the chamber to re-engage the clay, I came within kicking distance of the thing, and briefly thought about just kicking it, and breaking it. I didn't, but the idea has gotten me thinking, is there a rule that penalizes me for doing it after i've already engaged it(shot at it). I would have not stepped out of a shooting box, the bay was the shooting box and you could have gone anywhere in the bay to engage the targets.

I await your answers!!!!!!

Trapr

Sic Scout on it, if he kills it I would give it to you.----------Larry

[Dan Sierpina]

Maybe if you used a knife or your axe off of the truck?

[Lee Bell]

Maybe if you used a knife or your axe off of the truck?

Or hit it with the barrel

[wide45]

Time stops with the last shot.

You going to fire one shot, then run around and knife all the targets?

[bigbrowndog]

OK, kurt but how about if my belt comes off and my rig drops to the ground, but the gun did'nt come out of the holster

so would you consider it, unsportsmanlike conduct? or what? obviously better judgement prevailed, and i didn't kick it, but man was i pissed about missing it.

trapr

[kurtm]

Amusing, but not unsportsman like! It just wouldn't count; kind of like the open shootetr at Bening wanting to know if he got the grenade bonus while he was shooting the rilfe part of the first stage. Take all the time you want to kick stuff...except the R.O. of course, you paid for the stage so enjoy it like you want

[Flexmoney]

Here is how that big stupid USPSA rule book handles it:

10.2.7 A competitor who fails to shoot at any scoring target with at least

one round will incur 1 procedural penalty per target, plus the

applicable number of misses, except where the provisions of

Rules 9.2.4.5 or 9.9.2 apply.

[bigbrowndog]

OK Flex, but I thought I had written down that I did shoot at it?

Trapr

also this was IMGA, but the USPSA definition is useful.

Edited January 27, 2007 by bigbrowndog

[Chuck Anderson]

No penalty for failure to engage but penalty for the miss.

[Flexmoney]

... I thought I had written down that I did shoot at it?

Right. So no procedural for that. (Which was kinda brought up by others...shoot once, then knife targets...)

Here is some stuff that should hit closer to your question (I'm pulling from the pistol rule book, which is handy for me):

4.5.1 The competitor must not interfere with the range surface, natural

foliage, constructions, props or other range equipment (including

targets, target stands and target activators) at anytime. Violations

may incur one procedural penalty per occurrence at the discretion

of the Range Officer.

10.6.1 Competitors will be disqualified from a match for conduct which

a Range Officer deems to be unsportsmanlike. Examples of

unsportsmanlike conduct include, but are not limited to, cheating,

dishonesty, failing to comply with the reasonable directions

of a Match Official, or any behavior likely to bring the sport into

disrepute. The Range Master must be notified as soon as possible.

I think you'd be fine...unless you wanted ask for a reshoot...claiming the target wasn't available for you to make up the miss on.

[Chris Keen]

Personally ............. as an RO, I wouldn't be upset about a shooter kicking it, if it was a club match, and it was obviously done in fun.

But if the shooter claimed (seriously) he wanted the points for "hitting it", then I would say "You can have the points for hitting it, but I'm also giving you 1 procedural penalty for touching that target during the course of fire."

That ought to shut them up.

[Merlin Orr]

Not addressing the rules for a min.....

If a competitor wants to run around the course and kick every target to death I could care less as long as the timer stops with the last shot/stab/kick/blow/garrote/strangle... Ya think he will do it faster that way than with gunpowder assisted lead projectiles...?

[bigbrowndog]

merlin, on some shotgun courses, with reloading...................................yes, it could be done faster, kicking and punching. think of a steel course or clay birds, and having to reload.

chris, the touching the target thing, could be penalty.

trapr

[MasterLefty]

Personally ............. as an RO, I wouldn't be upset about a shooter kicking it, if it was a club match, and it was obviously done in fun.

But if the shooter claimed (seriously) he wanted the points for "hitting it", then I would say "You can have the points for hitting it, but I'm also giving you 1 procedural penalty for touching that target during the course of fire."

That ought to shut them up.

I kicked a popper at a club match in Breckenridge. I completely forgot to shoot it and as I was running down range I just swung my leg over and knocked it down.

When we finished the stage, I asked how are you going to score the popper. I told the RO, "I will take the miss, but I did engage it." I don't remember how we finally score the stage, but we were having a lot of fun.

Kenny

[itento]

TRAPR,

While USPSA rules are contained in a book, IMGA rules are on a page, and usually modified by each Match Director to fit their needs. This means the Range Master and CRO/ROs are given a lot of latitude since not all contingencies are covered by the few rules.

I imagine we all have experienced a situation at a IMGA rules match where a competitor was issued a procedural and he/she argued that the "rules" didn't specifically say you couldn't do something. I specifically remember a recent match where a shooter engaged a target through a "snow fence" barricade and argued that the rules didn't specifically say he couldn't. The RM upheld the procedural.

[Dan Sierpina]

Considering this was a clay "bird" maybe you should have wrung it's neck? That should be okay, wouldn't it?

I don't know if that's in the PETA rule book or not.

[RiggerJJ]

In RM3G rules, under "Sportsmanship and Conduct";

3.4 RO’s may assess additional “unsportsmanlike conduct” penalties to competitors that intentionally fail to make a good faith effort to engage and hit targets in order to gain advantage. The Match Director shall be the final arbiter of any such penalties.

As stage RO I would probably assess penalties;

10 seconds for the miss (cause you didn't shoot it)

10 seconds for 3.4

interesting thought thou...I sure don't want our IMG rule "book" to become as large as IPSC, so don't kick em, punch em, smack em with barrel of gun, tip a barrel over onto it, knock down a wall on em, etc....

Just shoot the %!#@ thing!

jj

[Bronco]

Trapr, You fulfilled the act of shooting at the target and the rules say flangable targets must break to count, so if you step on it or kick it to break it you have technically satisfied the requirements for the hit. It is also not uncommon to be instructed to engage a target with knife, club or bare hands. Think you would have a strong case, why don't you try it next time out.

[mike.45]

Traps, have you been hitting the Wild Turkey to hard amigo ?

[bigbrowndog]

Bronco, you "were" the RO, if you remember. I fully intend to "play" by the rule book it was just something that was nagging me, if I had been the RO, and I could tell that the target was intentionally broken by the competitor, physically instead of by the accepted means. I would "award" a penalty as well. Which is why I didn't want to put the RO in the position of having to make a judgement call, against a shooter, much less a friend.

Good judgement, and common sense, are an endangered pair, when it comes to competition.

trapr

[gl]

I always carry an aerosol can and a lighter so if I am close enough I just FLAME the target.

Any other flamers out there??

I know Bennie H uses this method since he is a flamer.

Since we are all having fun...LOL!

Guy

[MKuhn]

If you would cement once fired shot pellets to the soles of your boots, get the picture?

Edited January 29, 2007 by MKuhn