3 Lb Trigger For Production?

[ysued]

Just admit it... The division was created and everyone then proceeded to game it out!

The DOH (not a real holster), ammo carriers away from the body, expensive trigger jobs, etc. Sort of like stock car racing. Richard Petty once said when asked about what's stock on a stock car... "Well, it looks like a Pontiac"!

In the spirit of the division, there should be no modifications at all. This is the problem with not fully thinking things out before you act. That's what they should have done at the start!

Rule US blah-blah point blah-blah: ...only as provided from the factory. Also specifically excluded are the special models created just for competition (Glock 34, 35).

I don't see a reason to exclude the 35 & 35, there's nothing competitive about them!!

A little longer barrel?? IMHO not an issue!! I like the way the G17 feels better.

On the rest.... you are 100% right!! IMHO, we managed to turn a great division into a close approximation to Limited!!

[ihatepickles]

In the spirit of the division, there should be no modifications at all.

What spirit? Where is this bit of information hidden in the rulebook?

Also specifically excluded are the special models created just for competition (Glock 34, 35).

My local PD carries the G35, gamers.

I don't want my post to come across as confrontational, I don't have any problem with you voicing your opinion. I maintain that there's nothing at all wrong with being a gamer.

Folks, I kindly invite you to go over to the uspsa forum and raise a ruckus over there on this and other issues.

If we are being told that answers to questions will only be done on the "official" forum, lets fill it up with questions.

I agree, folks if you care about these issues then go to the USPSA forums and voice you're opinion where it matters.

[Bill Rosenthal]

The G34 - G35 type guns were created specifically in response to the division rules (the guns are the result of people asking Glock to come out them). Your police aren't the gamers, the guns gamed the division. The "spirit" is the reason the division was created in the first place.

Bill

[ysued]

What spirit? Where is this bit of information hidden in the rulebook?

You hit the nail on the head!!

Some of us have a notion that there was a "Spirit" to PD, some of us think that PD is just another Division to have evolve and modify as we wish!!

And as you pointed out, the Rule Book doesn't say anything about the "Spirit" of the Division.

That IMHO "IS" the main problem.

Y

The G34 - G35 type guns were created specifically in response to the division rules (the guns are the result of people asking Glock to come out them). Your police aren't the gamers, the guns gamed the division. The "spirit" is the reason the division was created in the first place.

Bill

If I remember well, The G35 & G34 came out before the PD Rules, didn't they??

Y

Edited December 28, 2006 by ysued

[Jim Norman]

Allowing only as built fro mthe factory will not work. Why? because as soon as you do that there will be factory models that while not built-for-the-rule they would be special guns that would essentially be "improvements" on an earlier model and the earlier Mark I would no longer be available, so by essential default, you would have a factory race.

Better that we have a set of rules that is very specific as to what is allowed and what is not allowed. I don't really care if we have pcitures posted online that show the exact limits of grip tape or the measuring methods for a mag well.

But let's face facts, unless USPSA wants to do an IROC division where they get Glock or Sig or... to sponsor a stage with guns and ammo we are always gonig to have an issue with what moodifications are allowed and what are not. And then we get into: SIg builds a gun with a 2 pound DA and a 2 pound SA, my old Sig won't do that, but the parts are the same, so I'll just switch them out.It isn't factory, so it would be illegal, but would it be fair? and how would you enforce it???

I could go on, but you all get the drift. (Or you don't)

This is a GAME. while there are rules, there are also interpretations of said rules and there in lies the problem. We always seem to have some uninteded consequence of a rule that requires an interpretation which in turn ususlly creates andother Unintended Consequence, which then requiresnaother rule change or interpretation.

Jim

[Bigbadaboom]

The G34 - G35 type guns were created specifically in response to the division rules (the guns are the result of people asking Glock to come out them). Your police aren't the gamers, the guns gamed the division. The "spirit" is the reason the division was created in the first place.

Bill

I don't buy that there was ever any intended "Spirit" for PD. I believe it was started to pull people over to IPSC from IDPA and that's it. I think they tried to cover the intent buy saying it was for people to get into the sport on the cheap because they knew that would be a byproduct of the division but it was started to take shooters away from IDPA. If it was only so people could get in cheaply then why have the holster and mag pouche positions? I also believe, after a great deal of contemplation, that they didn't get as many IDPA converters as they thought they would so this trigger pull limit rule is another attempt. I feel that we are on a slippery slope with this because we are going to get the same anti-gamer complaints from the folks coming over from IDPA because they like the basic rules of that sport better than they like the basic freestyle rules of IPSC. This isn't an us vs. them thing it's just that people like different things. I like IPSC rules better than IDPA so if I went over to IDPA I'ld probably complain about the rules which is why I have never shot IDPA, not because it's a bad sport but because it's not "MY" sport.

Let's keep IPSC/USPSA rules as they are and IDPA rules as they are and stop trying to change them so we can "Steal" members. They are all great sports in their own right and they get people out shooting and in the end that's what it's all about; isn't it?

The Glock 34 & 35 were designed and produced in 95-96. At least 5 years prior to the introduction of PD.

[ysued]

Allowing only as built fro mthe factory will not work. Why? because as soon

This is a GAME. while there are rules, there are also interpretations of said rules and there in lies the problem. We always seem to have some uninteded consequence of a rule that requires an interpretation which in turn ususlly creates andother Unintended Consequence, which then requiresnaother rule change or interpretation.

Jim

Thanks Jim, Another Great Insight into what needs to happen!!

Nothing should be left on interpretation!!

All rules should be easily understood, quantified and enforced, and "NOTHING" left to interpretation!!

Y

[ysued]

The G34 - G35 type guns were created specifically in response to the division rules (the guns are the result of people asking Glock to come out them). Your police aren't the gamers, the guns gamed the division. The "spirit" is the reason the division was created in the first place.

Bill

I don't buy that there was ever any intended "Spirit" for PD. I believe it was started to pull people over to IPSC from IDPA and that's it. I think they tried to cover the intent buy saying it was for people to get into the sport on the cheap because they knew that would be a byproduct of the division but it was started to take shooters away from IDPA. If it was only so people could get in cheaply then why have the holster and mag pouche positions? I also believe, after a great deal of contemplation, that they didn't get as many IDPA converters as they thought they would so this trigger pull limit rule is another attempt. I feel that we are on a slippery slope with this because we are going to get the same anti-gamer complaints from the folks coming over from IDPA because they like the basic rules of that sport better than they like the basic freestyle rules of IPSC. This isn't an us vs. them thing it's just that people like different things. I like IPSC rules better than IDPA so if I went over to IDPA I'ld probably complain about the rules which is why I have never shot IDPA, not because it's a bad sport but because it's not "MY" sport.

Let's keep IPSC/USPSA rules as they are and IDPA rules as they are and stop trying to change them so we can "Steal" members. They are all great sports in their own right and they get people out shooting and in the end that's what it's all about; isn't it?

The Glock 34 & 35 were designed and produced in 95-96. At least 5 years prior to the introduction of PD.

Seems that I'm not alone on the way I think!!

And thanks, I thought the 34 & 35 had been around for a long time!!

Y

[Carlos]

EDIT: there is an answer now and it appears to be from MV. Will not cross-post it here so as not to violate either set of forum rules.

I WILL say I disagree w/ the rule's need - particularly as stated. It has nothing to do with safety and it has nothing to do w/ moving USPSA's in the direction of harmonizing w/ IPSC rules.

What is needed is to erase that rule from the proposal for the next rulebook.

For the non-production shooters reading this, just think about how long you are going to have to wait around at chrono due to this unecessary rule.

Edited December 28, 2006 by Carlos

[Gregory_k]

this is a game

everyone is a gamer.

If your goal is to win, you will set up your gear to due just that.

[Bill Rosenthal]

O/K... I guess I did get the facts wrong. The G34 - G35 are Glock's answer to limited, not production. They were still built for competition with any other use being a by-product.

[edwin garcia]

Observation:

Wow! I'm glad i shoot open

[rgkeller]

Observation:

Wow! I'm glad i shoot open

Better check to see how far from the belt your holster and mag pouches are.

[MWGDVC]

If trigger pull wins the match, how did Sevigny win limited at the nationals this year? Even the best Glock triggers have to move further than good 1911 triggers.

It is the shooter that wins the match. I am unclear what problem this proposed rule will solve.

[ysued]

If trigger pull wins the match, how did Sevigny win limited at the nationals this year? Even the best Glock triggers have to move further than good 1911 triggers.

It is the shooter that wins the match. I am unclear what problem this proposed rule will solve.

IMHO, this rules will create more problems than it solves, but I have a feeling that the BOD has taken not of the objections in the membership and will either fix the rule or eliminate it completely.

Y

[mpolans]

Allowing only as built fro mthe factory will not work. Why? because as soon

This is a GAME. while there are rules, there are also interpretations of said rules and there in lies the problem. We always seem to have some uninteded consequence of a rule that requires an interpretation which in turn ususlly creates andother Unintended Consequence, which then requiresnaother rule change or interpretation.

Jim

Thanks Jim, Another Great Insight into what needs to happen!!

Nothing should be left on interpretation!!

All rules should be easily understood, quantified and enforced, and "NOTHING" left to interpretation!!

Y

Any patent lawyers here? They're probably some of the most anal writers on earth. If there's a group of people that can write a set a rules requiring the least amount of interpretation, it's probably them.

[shred]

Any patent lawyers here? They're probably some of the most anal writers on earth. If there's a group of people that can write a set a rules requiring the least amount of interpretation, it's probably them.

Hah! most all the patent attorneys I know try and write stuff as vague as possible to see what gets past the USPTO-- get too specific and it's harder to sue people for infringements that might not be, were you more specific... It's only lately with the rise of patent jury trials that they've been trying to make them even human-readable.

[Clay1]

Maybe I missed it in this thread but I think this is a direct result of the conflict that happened over the Vanek trigger and it's subsequent ruling.

If this were IDPA this is very similar to Billy Wilson saying that these holsters are OK today but tomorrow they are no longer legal.

The biggest problem I have with the changes is that the rules aren't stable. I remember reading with great respect when Voigt promised to focus on stability in the divisions. We've never had a min pull weight and now we want one??? If I had a vote I would vote against the change.

I always find it interesting in these discussions that so many people want to change so many rules. The rules are there let's just shoot.

Rick

[GeorgeInNePa]

Maybe I missed it in this thread but I think this is a direct result of the conflict that happened over the Vanek trigger and it's subsequent ruling.

If this were IDPA this is very similar to Billy Wilson saying that these holsters are OK today but tomorrow they are no longer legal.

The biggest problem I have with the changes is that the rules aren't stable. I remember reading with great respect when Voigt promised to focus on stability in the divisions. We've never had a min pull weight and now we want one??? If I had a vote I would vote against the change.

I always find it interesting in these discussions that so many people want to change so many rules. The rules are there let's just shoot.

Rick

Please make sure you go to the USPSA forums and express your opinion there.

[Leozinho]

I might take some of this whining more seriously if someone would just admit "I paid for a slick trigger job and I want the advantage over folks that didn't bother to make his gun shoot as well as possible."

Then at least you wouldn't be disingenuous.

Instead, we have comment after comment that triggers don't win matches. Well, if triggers don't make a difference, then why do you object so strongly to a 3lb minimum? I sincerely wish someone that said triggers don't win matches would explain why he even cares. Are you saying that a 1.5lb trigger isn't an advantage over a 3lb trigger?

The only other objections that I can see to the rule seem to fall under two categories:

1. Change is bad.

2. We didn't want the IDPA shooters crossing over in the first place, so let's not cater to them. (Or maybe - We're glad IDPA shooters have crossed over, now let's not do anything else to cater to them)

Neither of these are convincing to me.

I'm not an expert on trigger pull gauges, but I can't believe that there's not a uniform way to measure trigger pull. For DA/SA guns, each trigger pull, whether DA or SA, must be a minimum of 3 lbs. Problem solved.

Of course there is is a "spirit" to Production class -- that a stock gun with minimal if any modifications carried in a tradition holster can be competitive. To say there's no "spirit" to Production just because it's not spelled out in the rule book is wrong.

Full disclosure: I shoot Production with a Beretta (It's my duty gun, but it's my choice to compete with it and I'm not complaining.) You might believe that I'm in favor of a minimum trigger pull because there's no way to get my Beretta's DA pull down to 3 lbs anyway. That's partly true, but only in the sense that I think there should be a division where a true, hammer fired DA gun isn't at too great of a disadvantage.

I've never shot any other division. (Nor do I comment on Open or Limited rules.)

I think when commenting on rules you should disclose which class you shoot most often. If it isn't Production, have the courtesy to tell us.

Edited January 15, 2007 by Leozinho

[Clay1]

Some Nice comments LeoZ. Logically thought out and rationally explained.

I'll be the first to tell you that I understand production is for DA firearms and not single action weapons. I believe that the Glock format is a production gun. I'll also tell you that I chose the Glock action over the Beretta because I thought it had a competitive advantage. I then selected the G34 for a competitive advantage. I then had my trigger worked for a competitive advantage. I bought a kydex holster and mag pouches for a competitive advantage. I did all of these things and they were legal. I DIDN'T DO ANYTHING WRONG OR ILLEGAL. Now they want to change the rules. My biggest problem with this is rules stability.

The boys that have been playing this game much longer than I, have seen their equipment in the past become illegal. This hits you financially and morally. You would think that people would be for rules stability. Again this is the biggest problem that I have with the current changes. A rules clarification is one thing to add in a new rule book. But when you take guns that are competiting legally in a division now and then say that now they can't - that bothers me.

Rick

[shred]

Likewise, the complaints 'but then the DA/SA's will have an advantage!' is tacitly expressing that the striker guns today have an advantage over the DA/SA's... No problem if you want it like that, but from a 'how do we make this fair?' debate point of view, it's a little shaky ground.

[Leozinho]

A little smirking emoticon is fine, Clay, though it's more helpful if you'd just say what's irrational about my post.

You do understand that there's no competitive advantage if everyone else has the same modification, right?

I'm not sure how you are morally effected by rule changes, but I can see there's a financial cost of making your pistol fit the new rule. How much would it cost to make your Glock trigger meet the 3lb minimum? And how much have you spent on your current trigger? These are serious questions. I don't know the first thing about the cost of Glock triggers.

Now that someone finally has said light triggers are a competitive advantage, maybe we can get past those ridiculous assertions that they don't make a difference.

[Singlestack]

This emoticon means "cool".

I'm pretty sure he was agreeing with you.

Back to the topic now.

[vluc]

A little smirking emoticon is fine, Clay, though it's more helpful if you'd just say what's irrational about my post.

You do understand that there's no competitive advantage if everyone else has the same modification, right?

I'm not sure how you are morally effected by rule changes, but I can see there's a financial cost of making your pistol fit the new rule. How much would it cost to make your Glock trigger meet the 3lb minimum? And how much have you spent on your current trigger? These are serious questions. I don't know the first thing about the cost of Glock triggers.

Now that someone finally has said light triggers are a competitive advantage, maybe we can get past those ridiculous assertions that they don't make a difference.

Leo, I run faster than others...that's a competitive advantage. Some people are taller, have better eyesight, have faster reflexes... that can be a competitive advantage...we can go on and on. Hell, let's weigh shoes so no one person has a lighter shoe than another.

The playing filed is never level, no matter what you may try to do.

Rule change for the sake of change is nonsense, and the BOD, other than a brief comment on having a stock and a race division, have yet to address what problem exists with lighter triggers in production and how a minimum pull will solve that problem.