3 Gun Beginner Help!

[JasonR]

Ok so 3 gun seems like alot of fun, but I'm almost scared away with it from hearing what I'll need to be even remotely competitive.

For pistols, I've heard STIs were the only way to go...and they are usually customized by someone like Benny Hill...and I think are around the 2k mark. I'm a college student, dammit! I was thinking of buying a USP Expert, as I'm an HK fan, and I think it would work very well for the price.

From what I've heard Benny Hill Benelli's are the way to go. Most people seem to run a 20-22" barrel, and I can't find a Benelli M1 or M2 w/ that length barrel. I have a mint M1, but it has ghost rings and a 18.5" barrel. :\

And for a Rifle most use an AR. What ARs are people using? What should I look for?

I'm confused by this whole 3 gun thing now, and IPSA and USPSA or whatever the acronyms are confuse me even more. :\

Posting pictures of your gear would help a bunch, too.

[wide45]

You don't need any of that high end stuff to get started.

Use the shotgun you have.

Any limited legal pistol. If you shoot the HK well, you will do better with it, than a gun you don't know. If you don't have one yet, what pistol do you have?

Do you have a semiauto rifle?

Just go and shoot.

Edited December 2, 2006 by wide45

[George]

A basic AR can be had for under a grand by a fairly good margin. Try www.cavalryarms.com.

As mentioned, the shotgun you have is fine.

Any semi-auto pistol that is 9mm, or larger and that you can shoot well is just fine to start with. Of course the big dawgs have expensive stuff, so do some of the regular folks. You DO NOT need this stuff to do well, or even to place near/at the top. If you have the ability, any gear set is capable of being run to the winners circle.

Jump in and enjoy.

More info here on getting started:

http://www.3gunrules.com/gettingstarted.php

[JasonR]

A basic AR can be had for under a grand by a fairly good margin. Try www.cavalryarms.com.

As mentioned, the shotgun you have is fine.

Any semi-auto pistol that is 9mm, or larger and that you can shoot well is just fine to start with. Of course the big dawgs have expensive stuff, so do some of the regular folks. You DO NOT need this stuff to do well, or even to place near/at the top. If you have the ability, any gear set is capable of being run to the winners circle.

Jump in and enjoy.

More info here on getting started:

http://www.3gunrules.com/gettingstarted.php

I've got a bunch of USPs, mostly .45 cal and 3 .40s. I want a USP Expert anyways, and I think it would be a decent competition gun and not too spendy....

I don't have any semi auto rifles yet (my dad does, but he's out of state), I'm only 22 so I'm just getting started and have spent my time buying mostly HK pistols. I was going to buy my first AR in the next couple of months...something simple..maybe a Colt LE6920 or RRA/Stag rifle.

It just seems every time I post about using the stuff I have, people say I have to have a STI pistol or Benny Hill M1 etc. :\

[ihatepickles]

There's several divisions you can compete in. I'm going to assume you're wanting a Limited rig to keep costs reasonable.

The shotgun you have is fine, you'll begin with one less round in the gun than everyone else. That'll hurt you a bit, but at this stage in the game that kind of disadvantage is minuscule. You'll need some form of shellholders too, budget $20-$70 depending on how you reload.

The rifle is fairly simple, AR-15's rule the roost. There's a special category called 'Tactical' that allows one of your 3 guns to use an optic, so the rifle is the obvious choice for the glass. You can go without an optic too and your scores aren't directly compared to those folks with glass, so don't feel like you have to spend more money to be competitive. People hang a ton of junk from their ARs though, mostly it's junk and not needed at a beginner level. The 2 things I'd focus on earlier in you research are the gas system length and the sighting system. No question you want a free-floated barrel though, the barrel quality and having it floated at 90% of the AR's accuracy. You need a few mag pouches too, budget $50-$100 depending on tastes.

The pistol will be most competitive if it's .40 cal with 20 in the magazine. The HK Expert isn't something I'd buy to compete in limited with but if you already own it then it'll do. The HK doesn't have a good enough aftermarket parts selection to make it compete with the 20 round magazines and guns with magwells. If you're buying a limited pistol on the cheap, I'd recommend a CZ Tactical Sport or a Glock 35. The CZ is nearly complete from the factory, you'd need a few more magazines, some basepads (for more capacity) and maybe a steel guiderod. The CZ is a heavy pistol with a large grip, buyer beware. The G35 with new sights, guiderod+springs, cheap trigger work, extra mags, +5 basepads will come in around $1000, maybe less. You still need belt, holster, and mag pouches at that point, budget another $150.

Basically, starting from scratch is pricey. I'd recommend starting off in USPSA Production class with a 9mm handgun. That's the cheapest entry into the sport. My entire Production rig (gun, belt, holster, mags, and pouches) is under $1000. I truly believe you can win Production handgun matches with a $500 bargain rig too, a used G17 with sights, mags, and a holster rig can be found second hand for that price. Once you're in better financial straits you can look into the other divisions and 3 gun. I'd hate to be a fairly new competition shooter trying to decipher 3 gun rules and such. Start small, build up.

[George]

people say I have to have a STI pistol or Benny Hill M1 etc

"THEY" are wrong. Whatever you choose will be fine as long as you are happy with it. Thinking that not having an S*I, etc.. makes you un-competitive is flat out wrong. Not practicing with the gear you have is what will make you un-competitive.

I know of several folks that shoot fairly stock Glocks, etc.. and they are at the top of the heap over many folks with S*I pistols when it comes time to read the match results.

[uscbigdawg]

eerw has a sweet Cavalry Arms rifle for sale on the classifieds page. If I wasn't leaving for deployment soon, I'd have bought it. It's probably still available and he's asking less than $600 for it. I'd jump on it if it was me.

Other than that, you're good to go.

Rich

[No.343]

Jason, Try to find a monthly match in your area. Once people see that you are serious about competing you will get all the help that you need. Shooters here borrow equipment and share guns in a regular basis. Just go shoot with what you have and shoot as much as you can.

[Flexmoney]

Get 3 guns that run 100%. That alone will likley put a thrid or more below you on the score sheet.

The guys at the top of the score sheet will kick azz no matter what the gear.

[Tim James]

Don't listen to these guys, Jason. They just want you to come out so they can beat you with their expensive guns!!

Just kidding. Although on this subject sometimes I go against the conventional wisdom that goes against the conventional wisdom. In other words, you'll think it's natural that you need a fancy gun to show up and play. Then you come on here and everyone says "oh, just use what you have!" That's usually fine -- just like when some poseur doesn't want to come out and race because he wants to put more parts on his car; it doesn't really matter.

Sometimes there are reasons to spend a little money or wait before getting serious. Take me, for instance. What a great example! I tried 3-gun a month ago and showed up with my 870, XD, and M1. It was cool and I'm glad I tried it, but shooting with the M1 every month just doesn't seem that "fun" to me. Due to our range facilities, most courses are close range hose fests. Even though I truly don't care about winning, I was getting a little bored with having to constantly reload and run around with that thing. Therefore, I've decided to spend my time elsewhere until I pick up a cheap AR-15.

In summary, you need to take an honest look at what you're goals are. Just out to win? You should probably spend time practicing. Prefer to shoot with a fancy gun for fun? Then don't let anyone steer you away.

I also have a rant prepared about how it's okay to modify your gun instead of buying more ammo even when you're a newbie. Most of the time new guys want to be competitive so the advice usually holds, but some of us don't care and just want to play with a sweet gun each month! I hope I don't get too many clueless comments about how the money was "wasted," but if I do, look for that rant soon.

[JasonR]

Don't listen to these guys, Jason. They just want you to come out so they can beat you with their expensive guns!!

Just kidding. Although on this subject sometimes I go against the conventional wisdom that goes against the conventional wisdom. In other words, you'll think it's natural that you need a fancy gun to show up and play. Then you come on here and everyone says "oh, just use what you have!" That's usually fine -- just like when some poseur doesn't want to come out and race because he wants to put more parts on his car; it doesn't really matter.

Sometimes there are reasons to spend a little money or wait before getting serious. Take me, for instance. What a great example! I tried 3-gun a month ago and showed up with my 870, XD, and M1. It was cool and I'm glad I tried it, but shooting with the M1 every month just doesn't seem that "fun" to me. Due to our range facilities, most courses are close range hose fests. Even though I truly don't care about winning, I was getting a little bored with having to constantly reload and run around with that thing. Therefore, I've decided to spend my time elsewhere until I pick up a cheap AR-15.

In summary, you need to take an honest look at what you're goals are. Just out to win? You should probably spend time practicing. Prefer to shoot with a fancy gun for fun? Then don't let anyone steer you away.

I also have a rant prepared about how it's okay to modify your gun instead of buying more ammo even when you're a newbie. Most of the time new guys want to be competitive so the advice usually holds, but some of us don't care and just want to play with a sweet gun each month! I hope I don't get too many clueless comments about how the money was "wasted," but if I do, look for that rant soon.

I would like to be competitive, but I understand that I probably won't be until I have a lot of shooting under my belt.

So I think I'm going to start w/ a USP Expert, My Benelli m1, and buy a good, reliable AR15. Then I'll go out and shoot and practice, and shoot and practice, and if I really get involved with it I can further upgrade my guns...

[Larry White]

Thats a good plan. But look into a glock 22 or better yet 35. Not nessarly a better pistol but they play the game a bit better IMO.------Larry

[Flexmoney]

Jason,

It might also depend on where you plan to shoot matches. As Tim mentioned, range limitations (no/limited long range rifle) are a factor. Also, it might depend on what rules your matches are following.

It sounds like you have a good handle on it. More than enough to get started and get your feet wet.

[baa]

One suggestion on the rifle- If you are buying your first AR for 3-Gun competition, I suggest getting a rifle length (20") barrel. This will give you a. a full length gas system and b. the ability to have a decent sight radius if you shoot limited. The reason I suggest 20" over 18" is that you can find a 20" "off the shelf" from most of the major manufacturers.

As to the rest- Don't get too hung up on the pistol. Major/Minor pistol scoring in 3-gun is not as big a deal as a pure pistol match (and many outlaw matches don't score major/minor at all.) That's not to say you shouldn't own a hi-cap .40 for competition. Everyone should It's just that it can wait.

[DJPoLo]

Another thought on the rifle:

We don't see too many long range stages at the club level around here so I just threw a Mech-Tech carbine upper on top of a 1911 (actually 2011) frame and I'm good to go. I found the Mech-Tech used for around $150.

-Chet

Edited December 4, 2006 by DJPoLo

[JasonR]

Ok, so the pistol isn't super important in 3 gun? If I want to get into pistol matches...do I have to start off w/ an STI?

[ihatepickles]

Ok, so the pistol isn't super important in 3 gun? If I want to get into pistol matches...do I have to start off w/ an STI?

Actually, I don't understand or agree with that. The pistol in USPSA 3 gun is scored identical to a full pistol match. A good pistol is USPSA pistol matches is a good gun in 3 gun. Maybe the original poster meant with so many shots fired the pistol isn't nearly as important in 3 gun as it is in a pistol only match. Either way, points are points, I don't want to drop any if I can help it.

If you're buying a pistol for both, you're looking for a Limited class gun. STI is a great choice, see the rest of the thread for cheaper options. If you consider STI, make sure you budget for magazines.

[George]

If I want to get into pistol matches...do I have to start off w/ an STI?

No, it's been proven that a stock CZ, Beretta, SIG etc... can take you to GM in Production if you want it to. The same goes for a Glock in .40 caliber for USPSA Limited. There are folks that have earned a GM classification soley with a piece of .40 caliber Tupperware. It CAN be done and IS being done again and again.

That said, the better the pistol is (or the better you like the pistol), the better you will probably shoot it.

It all depends on your goal settings and level of dedication to training in a productive manner as to what you will get out of ANY specific gun in USPSA competition. Any competition for that matter.

[baa]

Ok, so the pistol isn't super important in 3 gun? If I want to get into pistol matches...do I have to start off w/ an STI?

Actually, I don't understand or agree with that. The pistol in USPSA 3 gun is scored identical to a full pistol match. A good pistol is USPSA pistol matches is a good gun in 3 gun. Maybe the original poster meant with so many shots fired the pistol isn't nearly as important in 3 gun as it is in a pistol only match. Either way, points are points, I don't want to drop any if I can help it.

If you're buying a pistol for both, you're looking for a Limited class gun. STI is a great choice, see the rest of the thread for cheaper options. If you consider STI, make sure you budget for magazines.

I didn't explain my point well enough. Given his situation, I would think Jason should put money into a rifle next and "shoot what he gots" pistol-wise. My statement not to get hung-up on pistol is simply because, in my personal experience, its not where most of the points and/or time is won/lost in 3/multi-gun. Which, is not to say the pistol in unimportant in 3-gun. Just not as important as in a pistol only match .

Utimately it depends on your goals, Jason.

[JasonR]

Ok, so the pistol isn't super important in 3 gun? If I want to get into pistol matches...do I have to start off w/ an STI?

Actually, I don't understand or agree with that. The pistol in USPSA 3 gun is scored identical to a full pistol match. A good pistol is USPSA pistol matches is a good gun in 3 gun. Maybe the original poster meant with so many shots fired the pistol isn't nearly as important in 3 gun as it is in a pistol only match. Either way, points are points, I don't want to drop any if I can help it.

If you're buying a pistol for both, you're looking for a Limited class gun. STI is a great choice, see the rest of the thread for cheaper options. If you consider STI, make sure you budget for magazines.

I didn't explain my point well enough. Given his situation, I would think Jason should put money into a rifle next and "shoot what he gots" pistol-wise. My statement not to get hung-up on pistol is simply because, in my personal experience, its not where most of the points and/or time is won/lost in 3/multi-gun. Which, is not to say the pistol in unimportant in 3-gun. Just not as important as in a pistol only match .

Utimately it depends on your goals, Jason.

Well it seems I only have 2 choices with my current pistol selection: USP .40f (have to buy JF and 16 round mags) or USP .45f tactical (12 rounds of .45 acp).

I WANT to buy a USP .40 Expert anyways, so I was going to use that if I buy it...

[wsimpso1]

I am firmly in the "run what ya got" camp until you know that you love this stuff and know what you want to run. You already have a good pistol - you need 32 rounds worth of magazines - run it. If you already have a good shotgun - you need a dozen rounds worth of rounds on your belt or pouch - run it. Beg or borrow a 223 autoloader or M-1 Carbine and run it. A buddy has an M1 Rifle or a G-3 - You need a pouch or two for the amgazines and run it.

Advice on playing the game:

Know what the range commands mean and what is expected of you for each one.

Listen to the RO;

Be safe in your gunhandling;

Walk these CoF's until you get comfortable;

Get your hits, fast misses are meaningless;

The saddest thing I see in matches are guns that do not work and shooters that do not know where their guns hit. The next saddest thing I see is shooters that can not hit their targets. So practice. Dry fire including load and unload, reloads, are all good ideas. Live fire practice enough to know that your equipment is reliable and zeroed.

Now quit worrying about what you should buy: borrow a rifle, mentally rehearse, practice, and go shoot. You will have fun!

Billski

[Tim James]

The saddest thing I see in matches are guns that do not work and shooters that do not know where their guns hit. The next saddest thing I see is shooters that can not hit their targets....

You will have fun!

Unless he's quaking with fear that some jerk is shaking his head at how "sad" it is that he can't hit anything!

Not to pick on you, but it seems like a lot of experienced shooters lack sensitivity, tact, and communication skills when talking to newbies. I'm not talking about hand-holding, I'm talking about saying the wrong thing when genuinely trying to offer support. I ought to write an article on this for Front Sight.

[tenchu74]

Aren't many of the big matches such as Superstition Mountain, DPMS, Rocky Mtn., Fort Benning, judged under the International Multi Gun rules which it seems does'nt score major or minor? If so wouldn't a hi cap 9mm be the obvious answer unless your shooting heavy metal?

Steve

[sslav]

Ok so 3 gun seems like alot of fun, but I'm almost scared away with it from hearing what I'll need to be even remotely competitive.

What exactly do you mean "competitive"? Being new myself to USPSA I do not feel that a fully custom STI/Benelli/JP AR would make any difference at all in how competitive I am (which is not at all). It has zero effect on how much fun I have (which is a whole lot). So shoot what you already have or can afford to buy without breaking the bank. Chances are no matter what you are going to get, it is going to be a while before you feel that your gear is holding you back.

Edited December 8, 2006 by sslav

[BBunin]

Just to slip an aside in here.....

Could I shoot 3-gun with the following?

1911 or XD40

M1 Garand or SKS

Rem 870 18" or 11-87 26"

It seems I'd be fine in heavy metal???