When Did 40s&w Become Heavy Metal?

[Bones]

but my 357 is not?

[Huck]

About the same time that major 9 was banned from limited.

[Matt Cheely]

About the same time that major 9 was banned from limited.

I don't agree with anything less than .45ACP / 44 mag. being heavy metal.

[Huck]

I agree totally with what Matt said, keep heavy metal heavy.

[Helmut]

Since it became "He-She Man".........go girl!

[uscbigdawg]

About the same time that major 9 was banned from limited.

Useless.

I'm with Matt. When I think Heavy Metal I think .45 ACP/.44 Magnum.

Rich

[Overkill]

What's with all the dissing of the 10mm?

[Helmut]

What's with all the dissing of the 10mm?

10mm is great...i think it is the best all around caliber out there.....but i think everyone that is disagreeing with the rule changes at some major matches (SMM3G & others) that the original intent and spirit of He-Man was old dominate calibers of the time (IE 45acp/.308-30.06/12ga....all iron sights). Now it is becoming more and more bastardized from the original intent. I personally think it should be that same as it was from the creation of it.

More and more rules.....no plastic frame/grips, 40cal, pump/semi, optic/irons, etc etc etc......from match to match it changes......now you have to own 2 to 3 different sets of equipment to be competative, depending what match you shoot........some matches iron/optics and semi/pump for he-man are not even separated in the scores....just lumped.

I am waiting for the no daylight rule for he-man holster or retaining empty mags and any other crap someone can dream up......I wish that the original standard was enforced....but i guess now a days that would be living in a dream land.

Just the rantings of a madman!!!!!!!

Edited December 2, 2006 by Helmut

[Religious Shooter]

Well other than USPSA none of the other orgs had power factors for HM. IMHO power factor AND bore size is what makes a HM round an HM round.

With the SMM3G recent rule change:

Before:

Pistol: .44+ bore size with no PF requirement

Rifle: .308+ with no PF requirement

After:

Pistol: .40+ with 165 PF.

Rifle: .308+ with 360 PF

I think the "After" with the PF requirement is more "He-Man" than before. Before you can go around shooting a .45 with a 150PF and a .308 that just cyles the action. Now you need more oomph in your rounds to run in HM.

Of course 165 PF isn't exactly a "He-Man" PF. It a normal man's PF.

[AH6IP]

Please don't forget .45 GAP in heavy metal. Same ballistics (or better) than 45 ACP.

[Liota]

.40 became "Heavy Metal" when I tried to lift a case of them off the floor.

Yes, I'm a girly-girl.

L

Edited December 2, 2006 by Liota

[Bones]

If any one reading this has meaningful influence I propose a return to simplicity. It was one of the appealing attributes of the division. I was negatively impressed when I read the HM SMM rules.

Craig

[Overkill]

Well, it seems like there's a little bit of dispute, or perhaps lack of concensus on what HM should be. Is is suposed to be about PF, where the objective is to be more "hard" than the rest of 3 Gun, or is a kind of WWII/Korea nastalgia class? WRT to the former there's also the consideration of how "limited" the class should be. WRT to the latter, there's the consideration of how "modern" should be allowed.

Seeing as how HM is usually underrepresented at matches, I think it makes sense to set a rule set that's as inclusive WRT to equipment as possible while still honoring whatever ethical concept the class is built around.

[AikiDale]

I think it is as much a nostalgia thing as a power thing and lean toward keeping HM at .44 and larger. However, in the spirit of diversity, inclusiveness and peace through superior fire power, I'd be willing to allow .40 caliber pistols if the HM pistol power factor goes to 195.

[Overkill]

Well, that's the crux of it isnt it? If your goal is to be old school, then you might as well just say "44 revolver or single stack 1911 in 45acp"; call it the Bill Wilson class. Then all the glock shootes and guys with a couple grand invested in a Limited gun will bail out to Tactical class and you'll be left with a small handfull of guys shooting HM. If you say you'll go 40 call with a high power factor you get to start talking about round count limits, chroning, space holsters etc. and then all the guys that want to shoot a SS1911 or a revolver are getting a bit of the cold shoulder. Of the two paths, I think the high PF route is more healty for the class; there seems to be few enough pistol points at a 3 gun match that gaming the difference between a 10mm 1911 and a 45 1911 or glock vs. a single stack wouldent net you very many match points...perhaps none at all with proper course design. I dont know if you can safely push long loaded 40 SW to 195, but even if you could it would be sufficiently different that a 165 pf that the whole thing would be worth the effort.

[P.E. Kelley]

In 2003 a couple of major matches instituted a class called "He-Man" wherein competitors ran .308 rifles and .45 calibre pistols sans optics. The class was popular at those venues and has prompted matches in 2004 to begin their own "He-Man" class. I think "He-Man" as instituted has gone off track! I want the competitors, match directors and sponsors who participate in this forum to reconsider what "He-Man" should be.

"He-Man" is not about using specialized firearms and ammunition developed for competition, even though some of those specialized competitive items are very suited to particular situational needs. "He-Man" is not about a call to arms for "Tactical Teds" or patrol car "operators" from where they can pontificate about their expected daring-do. "He-Man" is all about shooting large, standard calibre, proven, powerful firearms that have a probable, potentially wide use in law enforcement, the military and civilian self-defense. "Proven, probable, potentially wide use" refers to firearms the aforementioned users will likely have available in the event of a sudden need, i.e. pistols carried concealed or in a duty rig; rifles and shotguns likely to be available for premise defense, building entry or carried in a vehicle for rapid deployment.

A "He-Man Rifle" is a semi-auto in at least .308 Winchester, with no more than a 20 round box magazine, with iron sights or one optic, no bipod, fitted with a sling or carrying strap, a compensator or flashhider configured in proportion to the profile of the barrel, a stock that allows for ambidextrous use, and firing full powered ammunition. A "He-Man Pistol" is at least a .45acp with a barrel no longer than 5.5", limited to a 10 round capacity, no optics, no compensators, and firing full powered ammunition. A "He-Man Shotgun" is a 12 gauge, pump or semi-auto, with a barrel/magazine tube no longer than 22", fitted with a carrying strap, no optics, no bipods, no loading tubes, no compensators or porting, and firing buckshot and slugs only.

A large 3-gun match with a properly configured "He-Man" class in addition to Open and Tactical class will offer about all there is to dedicated 3-gunners. The importance, however, of a properly configured "He-Man" is that it will allow those shooters with a more tactical or professional bent not only a forum in which to compete, but a forum to develop some equipment and techniques readily transferable to wide practical applications. Using the term "wide practical applications" is in no way a slight to anyone or any piece of equipment. It does not mean an Open class competitor wielding a scoped, high capacity, .38 SuperComp out of a skeletonized holster does not have the means or the sand to defend himself or others. It does mean that the chances of that equipment seeing widespread adoption by those employed to enforce laws or defend the country will not happen in the next couple of years. The term "wide practical applications" does not mean a .308 rifle should be limited to iron sights or a 12 gauge shotgun should be limited to a pump action allowed to shoot 2 3/4 dram #8 birdshot. Scopes on rifles are common sense. Semi-auto shotguns are proven and widely accepted, and, shotguns for this purpose only make sense firing buckshot and slugs. "He-Man" should be all about learning to use practical, widely available, and powerful firearms in the best school of all, modern 3-gun competition.

This is the concept for He-Man, Heavy Metal. What it will be is in the hands of match directors and I hope class/division PARTICIPANTS!!!

It is NOT about WW2 gear or playing Army.

From my perspective it is about dealing with with TORQUE AND RECOIL generated by full power factory ammunition. Not how close I can (need???) cut DOWN my loads to squeek

into major PF. Heavy Metal places an emphasis on techniques required to manage torque and recoil at speed. It makes a whole different game out of 3 gun.

Patrick

[CaseyJ]

Pat,

I agree with you, and personally I feel that 10MM Auto should be allowed in HM but 40 S&W (short and weak) should not be allowed. I have shot many 40's and not a single one can match my light (190PF) 10MM loads. But that is once again just one man's opinion. I say raise the PF and put a 10mm caliber restriction on it. this would allow 40 shooters to compete but eho wants to shoot a 40 @ 190PF??

I love shooting my 10MM.

[Carlos]

In 2003 a couple of major matches instituted a class called "He-Man" wherein competitors ran .308 rifles and .45 calibre pistols sans optics. The class was popular at those venues and has prompted matches in 2004 to begin their own "He-Man" class. I think "He-Man" as instituted has gone off track! I want the competitors, match directors and sponsors who participate in this forum to reconsider what "He-Man" should be.

"He-Man" is not about using specialized firearms and ammunition developed for competition, even though some of those specialized competitive items are very suited to particular situational needs. "He-Man" is not about a call to arms for "Tactical Teds" or patrol car "operators" from where they can pontificate about their expected daring-do. "He-Man" is all about shooting large, standard calibre, proven, powerful firearms that have a probable, potentially wide use in law enforcement, the military and civilian self-defense. "Proven, probable, potentially wide use" refers to firearms the aforementioned users will likely have available in the event of a sudden need, i.e. pistols carried concealed or in a duty rig; rifles and shotguns likely to be available for premise defense, building entry or carried in a vehicle for rapid deployment.

A "He-Man Rifle" is a semi-auto in at least .308 Winchester, with no more than a 20 round box magazine, with iron sights or one optic, no bipod, fitted with a sling or carrying strap, a compensator or flashhider configured in proportion to the profile of the barrel, a stock that allows for ambidextrous use, and firing full powered ammunition. A "He-Man Pistol" is at least a .45acp with a barrel no longer than 5.5", limited to a 10 round capacity, no optics, no compensators, and firing full powered ammunition. A "He-Man Shotgun" is a 12 gauge, pump or semi-auto, with a barrel/magazine tube no longer than 22", fitted with a carrying strap, no optics, no bipods, no loading tubes, no compensators or porting, and firing buckshot and slugs only.

A large 3-gun match with a properly configured "He-Man" class in addition to Open and Tactical class will offer about all there is to dedicated 3-gunners. The importance, however, of a properly configured "He-Man" is that it will allow those shooters with a more tactical or professional bent not only a forum in which to compete, but a forum to develop some equipment and techniques readily transferable to wide practical applications. Using the term "wide practical applications" is in no way a slight to anyone or any piece of equipment. It does not mean an Open class competitor wielding a scoped, high capacity, .38 SuperComp out of a skeletonized holster does not have the means or the sand to defend himself or others. It does mean that the chances of that equipment seeing widespread adoption by those employed to enforce laws or defend the country will not happen in the next couple of years. The term "wide practical applications" does not mean a .308 rifle should be limited to iron sights or a 12 gauge shotgun should be limited to a pump action allowed to shoot 2 3/4 dram #8 birdshot. Scopes on rifles are common sense. Semi-auto shotguns are proven and widely accepted, and, shotguns for this purpose only make sense firing buckshot and slugs. "He-Man" should be all about learning to use practical, widely available, and powerful firearms in the best school of all, modern 3-gun competition.

This is the concept for He-Man, Heavy Metal. What it will be is in the hands of match directors and I hope class/division PARTICIPANTS!!!

It is NOT about WW2 gear or playing Army.

From my perspective it is about dealing with with TORQUE AND RECOIL generated by full power factory ammunition. Not how close I can (need???) cut DOWN my loads to squeek

into major PF. Heavy Metal places an emphasis on techniques required to manage torque and recoil at speed. It makes a whole different game out of 3 gun.

Patrick

You shoot a lot more 3gun than I do. But, to me, any sort of optic should never be allowed in he-man (especially rifle), nor should it allow any kind of semi-auto shotgun. And why the barrel length restriction for shotguns? Lots of 870s, winchesters and Mossbergs are sitting in closets w/ longer barrels than that - why exclude them? And the pistol should be a .45 ACP, 10mm, or similar (i.e. .44 mag). The .40 has a plcae. It should not be in heavy metal.

[kellyn]

Placing the .40 in Heavy Metal is much the same as placing Def Leppard in Heavy Metal. I don't think so. Heavy Metal should be based on the .45 230 grain hardball load with a 180 pf at the very least.

Permit me one rant. Few things drive me crazier than 1) different divisions which use the very same equipment (Limited and Tactical for example!!) and 2) people wanting to tweak divisions to match the equipment that they personally own rather than have the division actually make sense. This .40 cal inclusion into Heavy Metal simply seems like someone has a .40 single stack and wants to shoot Heavy Metal so the rule is simply tweaked to accommodate their personal equipment. If we are going to have a Heavy Metal Division, we should not water it down.

Heavy Metal should be 1) a .308 rifle with a real power factor so gamers like me have to shoot real God^&mn bullets and not sissy 110s. I don't think optics should allowed but that appears to becoming a minority view. If they're allowed fine but DON'T split up the division to irons and optics! I hate that s#^t! 2) a friggin 12 gauge PUMP shotgun NO SEMIAUTOS (just pony up and buy one, they're the cheapest competition firearm you'll ever buy!) 3) a .44 or .45 cal pistol with a real power factor with an 8 round mag limit. .45 GAP is fine if it meets the pf. I don't care if your .357 Sig, 9X23, or .32 auto can make the pf, Heavy Metal is about BIG bullets. As for the pistol itself, I don't care if you're shooting an XD, Glock, SwhateverI widebody, CZ etc. I am going to beat you with my single stack. And Heavy Metallers should be chrono'd.

Rant over.

[Bones]

Amen.

Edited December 7, 2006 by Bones

[benelli2]

Seems like a lot of ranting and debate for a class that typically draws only a small amount of competitiors to any major 3 gun, shot it once, and can appreciate it but the numbers may not make it worth the added match effort to check gear, chrono, break prize table, etc

Wish ya'll the best I'll go practice for TO, I can't see well enough to shoot your iron sights

I agree heavy should be heavy, and all three guns woud need t be chronoed to make a viable class and level field

adios

jc

[kellyn]

Given the lack of HM shooters at Ft. Benning, I would seriously consider dropping the class for that match. At LEAST 10% (15-20% would be better) of the field should be shooting it otherwise, it ought to go.

[Steve Moneypenny]

As a prospective 3 gun shooter, I REALLY feel 40 should not be allowed. and the PF should be higher. i've followed the 3 gun world for a couple years saving and training to get into competition (not much here local).

I like irons too.. he man/heavy metal is nothing if it doesn't require irons. though limited or "tactical irons" is almost dead in most matches.

Something needs done, but i don't know what it is. maybe we just need more 3 gunners to fill all the divisions.. yeahhhh thats it

[Jaxshooter]

I was at Benning also. The reason for fewer heavy metal shooters there was due to no optics in HM. Most of the shoots we go to allow one optic in HM like Limited Optic.

That is probably because some of us (me) are to old to shoot iron sights on rifles over 100 yards.

[Helmut]

I would like to see OPEN separate their class ......all pistol scores separate (top iron shooter 100% and top optic/comp shooter 100%).......all shotgun and rifle scores not separated.....

example.....

Pistol - Iron sights, no comps, no dots

Shotgun - No dots but only start with 10 rds max, mag tube not longer than 23", no limit on barrel.

Rifle - as many optical items that you can fit on it and bipods

Jimmy H. would love this.

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I would like to also see Tactical Class separate also.

example.....

Pistol - optics and comps

Shotgun - dots, but can only start with 5 rounds......mag tube can only hold 5 rds, barrel 18.5" with metal bead only......must have heat shield installed during entire match......and must have pistol grip stock.

Rilfe - 16" barrel only....1 optic only.......must have collapsible or folding stock.....all shots under 100 yrds, stock must be in NOT extended position.

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Then the best....SUPER HE-Man...........

Rifle - 458 mag. min. (ok....you can have optics or irons, but the will score separate).

Pistol - model 29 smith 6" barrel with power factor of FACTORY AMMO

Shotgun - HR 12ga single shot.....I have been practicing loading just in case they use this.

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But on a serious note.......maybe we should consult Mr. Wilson on this subject of rules and more rules.....

Lets ask the liberal congress....they will know what to do with this!!!!

___________________________________________________________________________

Lets have 50 divisions, then everyone can be a winner!!!!!!!!!

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Life is really simple, but we insist on making it complicated. ~Confucius

Edited December 8, 2006 by Helmut