Flexmoney Posted November 2, 2006 Share Posted November 2, 2006 Interesting – I just received my November/December Front Sight and it had the March 2006 Board Meeting minutes. There were two life members terminated. While I do not question the need to do this sometimes and the rules allow it I am curious as to why these two were put out. We've had a number of threads on that subject in the past...they have all been closed. Recently: http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?...t=0#entry467386 There is a thread about this on the USPSA forum as well, as I recall. (also closed?) This is an issue for the USPSA BOD to answer (and not here). Please address any questions on this to your Area Director. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mda Posted November 2, 2006 Share Posted November 2, 2006 (edited) Interesting – I just received my November/December Front Sight and it had the March 2006 Board Meeting minutes. There were two life members terminated. While I do not question the need to do this sometimes and the rules allow it I am curious as to why these two were put out. I think this has to do with an incident at the 2004 nationals at Berry where a complaint was filed by a competitor against a range official. The range official had NROI credentials revoked and then showed up at the 2005 nationals at Berry and caused additional problems, Law suits, restraining orders ect. Hence the termination of their membership. opps!!! Flex answered also. Flex please feel free to delete if you wish. I left out most of the details. Edited November 2, 2006 by mda Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dbletap_ed Posted November 3, 2006 Share Posted November 3, 2006 Wow that was kinda like farting in church..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
open17 Posted November 3, 2006 Share Posted November 3, 2006 OK, Back to the subject of the thread. AnyBODy got a clue when we might see the minutes of the Oct 20-21 board meeting on the USPSA website? Bruce G.??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeorgeInNePa Posted November 3, 2006 Share Posted November 3, 2006 Wow that was kinda like farting in church..... Don't ask questions/make statements that might upset anyone! Don't ask questions/make statements that might embarass anyone! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted November 3, 2006 Share Posted November 3, 2006 And...don't gossip like an old hen at the back yard fence... (sorry all...that isn't aimed at anyone in particular...I don't mean it to sound like it is...I just want to be clear that we are done talking about that issue on this forum). Back to the question...last BOD meeting minutes... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bgary Posted November 3, 2006 Share Posted November 3, 2006 AnyBODy got a clue when we might see theminutes of the Oct 20-21 board meeting on the USPSA website? Bruce G.??? Dunno. They get released when after we all get a chance to review them, and a vote is taken to "accept" them. They are under review right now. B Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loves2Shoot Posted November 3, 2006 Share Posted November 3, 2006 I like MV, but McCarter's got my vote if he goes for it. McCarter knows how to get people to come to matches and grow the sport. There is NO ego, just a love for the sport. He would get my vote and support. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck D Posted November 3, 2006 Share Posted November 3, 2006 "They get released when after we all get a chance to review them, and a vote is taken to "accept" them." Review and accept what you've already discussed? "They are under review right now." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bgary Posted November 3, 2006 Share Posted November 3, 2006 Review and accept what you've already discussed? Review and accept that the minutes - written from notes taken by a 3rd party - accurately reflect what we discussed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RIIID Posted November 4, 2006 Share Posted November 4, 2006 I don't no why one would be in a hurry to see the minutes, there really isn't any info given out except who was there, who made the motion, who seconded it, who asked for a roll call vote, and how they voted. Never really any insight as to how the members came to the conclution of the yes-no vote. Probably the reason for the double check of the minutes is to see if the credit is given to the right person of making a motion, seconded.................... What is really needed is a fly on the wall to record the actual conversation of the meeting. If that was possible than they would probably have the entire meeting in Executive Session. Just don't give a damn today, Rich Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Boudrie Posted November 4, 2006 Share Posted November 4, 2006 Board meetings are closed under the bylaws unless the board adopts a policy to open them to members. BUT.... we have adopted such a policy. All a member has to do is contact Dave Thomas 30+ days in advance of the meeting to reserve a seat. Seating is on an "as available" basis. The hotel conference rooms we rent always have room for a few observers, but if 100 people sign up we're not going to re-book the room - that's why you need to make reservations with Dave Thomas. I have never seen executive session used for items other than when such confidentiality is clearly justified: salary/performance reviews of staff, disciplinary matters, industry negotiations, and financial negotiations are the only ones that come to mind at present. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ipscbob Posted November 4, 2006 Share Posted November 4, 2006 I don't no why one would be in a hurry to see the minutes, there really isn't any info given out except who was there, who made the motion, who seconded it, who asked for a roll call vote, and how they voted. I think How an individual voted is VERY important when it comes time for the 2007 election. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck D Posted November 4, 2006 Share Posted November 4, 2006 "What is really needed is a fly on the wall to record the actual conversation of the meeting. If that was possible than they would probably have the entire meeting in Executive Session." Agreed...... "BUT.... we have adopted such a policy." When the observer is allowed to watch the entire session then and only then will being a spectator be a worthwhile endeavor. It's been championed numerous times that USPSA is the memberships organization. Until we get some transparency as to the hows and whys of a decision... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
warpspeed Posted November 4, 2006 Share Posted November 4, 2006 To answer the original question: The last in-person BOD meeting was on March 4. The PDF of the minutes was created on April 19th - 6 weeks. I would imagine this time they'd be the same. We should see them in Dec. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Boudrie Posted November 4, 2006 Share Posted November 4, 2006 When the observer is allowed to watch the entire session then and only then will being a spectator be a worthwhile endeavor. It's been championed numerous times that USPSA is the memberships organization. Until we get some transparency as to the hows and whys of a decision... Are you suggesting that we allow members to observe: Discussions regarding financial terms offered by various nationals venues, as well as the incentives/discounts offered by the communities looking to host said events even before we have received all bids? USPSA bought a lot years ago, did not build, and eventually sold the land. Should the board have permitted anyone with a membership to view the discussion where Dave Thomas was given direction as to what size offer was sufficient for USPSA to accept? Should discussion of personel and staffing matters be open? If the board needs to discuss possible litigation - either as a potential plaintiff or defendant, should discussions regarding the matter be open to members? If USPSA is discussing sponsorship or royalty arrangements with a vendor, should those talks be public before the deal is done? The answer to the above question is either "YES" or "NO". If the answer is "NO", the issue at hand is "what should be kept in exec session?". If the answer is "YES", how do you suggest dealing effectively with business and legal matters? Things change over time. When I was elected, meetings were closed - period. One of my goals was to open them up - which happened, although it took a couple of years. Despite that, NOBODY took advantage of this opportunity in Atlanta. Compare this to other shooting organizations (SASS, IDPA, TSA) that not only have closed board meetings, but do not even permit "members" to vote. There are a number of things USPSA does to maintain accountability: Elections are run by an independent CPA firm (costing thousands more than a do-it-yourself election), and we have a full audit every year where the external accounts show up at HQ for a week or so to go over the books - right down to checking reciepts against expense reports. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck D Posted November 4, 2006 Share Posted November 4, 2006 (edited) "Are you suggesting that we allow members to observe: Discussions regarding financial terms offered by various nationals venues, as well as the incentives/discounts offered by the communities looking to host said events even before we have received all bids? USPSA bought a lot years ago, did not build, and eventually sold the land. Should the board have permitted anyone with a membership to view the discussion where Dave Thomas was given direction as to what size offer was sufficient for USPSA to accept? Should discussion of personel and staffing matters be open? If the board needs to discuss possible litigation - either as a potential plaintiff or defendant, should discussions regarding the matter be open to members? If USPSA is discussing sponsorship or royalty arrangements with a vendor, should those talks be public before the deal is done?" In a word...Yes. "If the answer is "YES", how do you suggest dealing effectively with business and legal matters?" We've spoken before regarding this and you know where I stand. If you wish to review and/or discuss this further...you know how to get hold of me. "Compare this to other shooting organizations (SASS, IDPA, TSA) that not only have closed board meetings, but do not even permit "members" to vote." Apples and Oranges Sir.... When you join one of the aforementioned organizations, the membership knows that it's run as a "dictatorship"...USPSA claims that it's the membership's organization. If I as a concerned citizen can obtain information regarding salary and voting records of my Senator or Congressman...I should at the very least be provided complete transcripts of the debate regarding a particular issue such as the creation or elimination of a division or the amount of membership dues being paid a particular employee. "One of my goals was to open them up - which happened, although it took a couple of years. Despite that, NOBODY took advantage of this opportunity in Atlanta." I applaud your efforts but are you suggesting that I should fly to Atlanta to view a meeting in which I'll be asked to leave the room when the information most of the membership most likely would like to know is being discussed? Edited November 4, 2006 by Chuck D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Boudrie Posted November 5, 2006 Share Posted November 5, 2006 I am not expressing disappointment you did not fly to Atlanta, but I was hoping a local member would be able to come over to the hotel to watch and report it to the forums. When the minutes come out, the time of motions to enter and leave Exec Sesison, if any, will be reported. Anyone can then calculate the percentage of time spent in exec session. Believe it or not, sometimes BOD meeting occur without any Exec Session. Opening up business negitiation strategy planning doesn't work when you 15,000 members and it only costs $40 to join. I'm sorry not everyone agrees, but if USPSA is negotiating a sale or purchase I do not want the planning sessions to be available to the party on the other side of the negotiation table. I doubt if would have served USPSA's interest if a Google could have found "The USPSA Lot is listed for $X, but the board has instructed the Executive Director to accept any offer of at least $Y." I don't remember any explaination previously offered as to how we could have disclosed this in open session while effectively exercising our fidiciuary responsibility to the membership. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck D Posted November 5, 2006 Share Posted November 5, 2006 (edited) "I doubt if would have served USPSA's interest if a Google could have found "The USPSA Lot is listed for $X, but the board has instructed the Executive Director to accept any offer of at least $Y." I don't remember any explaination previously offered as to how we could have disclosed this in open session while effectively exercising our fidiciuary responsibility to the membership. " The membership owns this organization through their supporting the infrastructure by paying membership dues. If they did not... then membership dues wouldn't be required. The BOD's as well as the USPSA President are elected by the membership to act on behalf of the membership. The membership has a right to know about the decisions and directions taken by USPSA on their behalf. If I can seek, request, and obtain information from my Local, State, and Federal Governments... I should be able to do the same from USPSA's BOD's meetings regarding details of who is or is not in favor of a particular policy or action and their detailed reasons for their positions. Budget documents are available, voting records are available and position papers explaining the reasonings for a vote cast are available. To show a motion and a "roll call vote" tally shows me absolutely nothing. Why is it that I can gather more info on C-Span than I can from the minutes of a USPSA BOD's meeting? Their are reasons why some of us want to know what people think about a policy or issue and why they voted or authorized a particular action in the manner that they did. Same way you choose to support a candidate and/or policy-position when YOU go to the polls. Doubts will linger for as long as "executive session" is utilized and it takes 4 plus weeks on average to obtain meeting minutes. Edited November 5, 2006 by Chuck D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricW Posted November 5, 2006 Share Posted November 5, 2006 I think USPSA should eliminate all membership dues and finance the org by selling rides on the official USPSA black helicopter. I think my ride should be free because I had such a great idea. Bruce, if you would be so kind as to hover over the roof here in Jan. to take me down to the SS Classic. Be sure to set the rotor in whisper mode so you don't wake the neighbors. Thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eric nielsen Posted November 5, 2006 Share Posted November 5, 2006 These Rules threads take 1/2 as long to load if your contols are set to ignore one member. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck D Posted November 5, 2006 Share Posted November 5, 2006 (edited) "I think USPSA should eliminate all membership dues and finance the org by selling rides on the official USPSA black helicopter." I'll p/u the tab.... "These Rules threads take 1/2 as long to load if your contols are set to ignore one member." Bet I know who that is... It's not easy being me...at the end of the bar... me and my "curse of a distrusting nature".... my only company being my alter ego, "Doubting Thomas"..... Edited November 5, 2006 by Chuck D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wgnoyes Posted November 5, 2006 Share Posted November 5, 2006 If I can seek, request, and obtain information from my Local, State, and Federal Governments... You can "seek" and "request", "obtain" may be a different matter. There are classified meetings of various house and senate committees to hear matters of national security that are better left unheard by our enemies and (even worse) the drive-by media. Do you think THOSE should be open to everyone, as well? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wakal Posted November 5, 2006 Share Posted November 5, 2006 Bill, are you equating "who voted for what" and "how much did City X offer us for the Nationals" to NATIONAL SECURITY? Umm... Alex Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Anderson Posted November 5, 2006 Share Posted November 5, 2006 I doubt you can get access to any financial information before the decision has been made. I know the government doesn't post contract bids before the bid period is closed. I also know that there is a LOT of information that never becomes public. I think alot of this information is what Rob is talking about. It's just not feasible for USPSA to post every bit of financial information, or info about member or employee discipline, and could very well leave them open to civil liability. Admittedly, the BOD minutes are very inadequate. It seems unless you specifically talk to your AD you won't know how he feels about an issue. I know that Bruce has been very open, answered every question that I had and I know where he stands on issues that are important to me. We don't always agree but I know that he can back his position with a logical argument. (he's wrong of course but that's his problem) I think until someone actually goes to a BOD meeting, and tells us how much info is talked about outside of Exec Sesssion, we really need to put a hold on this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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